really not praying to Mary???

mike1reynolds · Sep 14, 2006

Well, for some reason this site disallows selecting the contents of the page so I can't just cut and paste the section in question. The reference to his building the church in dedication to Mary is on the first sentence of the second paragraph of this link:

http://www.marypages.com/OLVvandePilaarEng.htm

simonthezealot · Sep 14, 2006

simonthezealot said:
Your own cathecism claims she is a co-mediatrix

Mary is Co-Mediatrix and can be entrusted with all our prayers.
( Catholic Catechismp. 968-970, 2677 )

simonthezealot · Sep 14, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Well, for some reason this site disallows selecting the contents of the page so I can't just cut and paste the section in question. The reference to his building the church in dedication to Mary is on the first sentence of the second paragraph of this link:

http://www.marypages.com/OLVvandePilaarEng.htm

Funny I didn't see anywhere on that page references of what early writers/writings these posters got their information from.

mike1reynolds · Sep 14, 2006

Why is that funny?

QuantaCura · Sep 14, 2006

simonthezealot said:
Your own cathecism claims she is a co-mediatrix

That's not the same a the Mediatorship of Christ--we all participate in the sole mediatorship Christ by our prayers and self-denial--a priest is a mediator and Christ is the High Priest, but we all participate in His mediatorship because we share in His three-fold ministry--priest prophet, and King. Just as Christ is the sole King over Creation, we as Christians participate in that kingship--just as He is the sole mediator between God and man as the High Priest, we all participate in it in a special way as priests.

As for Mary, she participates in a special way as Mother of the Church. All grace is given to the Church by Christ, but it is through her constant intercession for us like a good mother does. Her constant intercession for the whole Church as mother and Queen (see what Jesus says on the Cross in John and see the Davidic kingdom set-up) she is considered a Mediatrix of grace.

mike1reynolds · Sep 14, 2006

You're not going to find contemporary written records of lots of historical accounts from 2000 years ago. If European knowledge of their ancient cities were limited to this there wouldn't be much of the knowledge of the local communities left from that time period much of anywhere in Europe. That doesn't seem to both most historians of Europe.

mike1reynolds · Sep 14, 2006

BTW, I just found that link by doing a web search on the key words James Greater Mary and church and picked the top link. I found a number of other sites that talked about this in the context of the local history of Santiago.

simonthezealot · Sep 14, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
You're not going to find contemporary written records of lots of historical accounts from 2000 years ago. If European knowledge of their ancient cities were limited to this there wouldn't be much of the knowledge of the local communities left from that time period much of anywhere in Europe. That doesn't seem to both most historians of Europe.

I personally can name 38 volumes that prove differently

Oh so maybe this thought developed over time, much like "Church" doctrines.

simonthezealot · Sep 14, 2006

QuantaCura said:
That's not the same a the Mediatorship of Christ--we all participate in the sole mediatorship Christ by our prayers and self-denial--a priest is a mediator and Christ is the High Priest, but we all participate in His mediatorship because we share in His three-fold ministry--priest prophet, and King. Just as Christ is the sole King over Creation, we as Christians participate in that kingship--just as He is the sole mediator between God and man as the High Priest, we all participate in it in a special way as priests.

As for Mary, she participates in a special way as Mother of the Church. All grace is given to the Church by Christ, but it is through her constant intercession for us like a good mother does. Her constant intercession for the whole Church as mother and Queen (see what Jesus says on the Cross in John and see the Davidic kingdom set-up) she is considered a Mediatrix of grace.

Jesus Christ alone is our Intercessor and our great High Priest.
1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14,
1 Peter 5:7

mike1reynolds · Sep 14, 2006

Are you suggesting that He will not honor His mother's wishes? Jesus follows the Ten Commandments too.

Smileyill · Sep 14, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Are you suggesting that He will not honor His mother's wishes? Jesus follows the Ten Commandments too.

Actually only 9

Debi1967 · Sep 14, 2006

simonthezealot said:
Jesus Christ alone is our Intercessor and our great High Priest.
1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14,
1 Peter 5:7

let us see your first scripture in context shall we simon...

1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:
1Ti 2:2 For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.
It seems it say that intercession is acceptable to the Lord and Saviour. A perfect example of this, is the fact that the apostle here is praying, therefore he is using prayer as a means of intercession on the behalf of all men. That makes him an intrcessor between the people he is praying for and the Lord.

There goes one of your scriptures out the window because it was not used in proper context.

Joh 14:13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.

Yes this is true because there is OLY ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD THE FATHER, AND MAN...... THAT IS GOD THE SON. So therefore even those in heaven must offer their prayers to Jesus to offer them to God the Father.

edit to add the third scripture-

1Pe 5:6 Be you humbled therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in the time of visitation:
1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him, for he hath care of you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist ye, strong in faith: knowing that the same affliction befalls, your brethren who are in the world.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, will himself perfect you and confirm you and establish you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be glory and empire, for ever and ever. Amen.
And this scripture put back into it's true context has absolutely nothing to do with what you would like to reference it to. It really has nothing to do with Jesus being the only Mediator by which we may use. It does however teach us that the Lord is God.

Davidnic · Sep 14, 2006

simonthezealot said:
I personally can name 38 volumes that prove differently

Oh so maybe this thought developed over time, much like "Church" doctrines.

Much like Thomas in India people said it did not happen and then Frnacis Xavier went to India and found Christians there who knew Christ and St. Thomas. The same with Spain. The basque and early people of Spain said James was there. People did not write everything down all the time. St. Jerome included it in early histories and so did others. The first written record from Spain concerning it is about 1100AD. But records from elsewhere mention James in Spain.

The only reason it was ever doubted is that the early Church council records don't mention it directly. But they don't mention things they don't have direct concern with. If you want to argue that if something is not included by a council then it is not fact and thereby give the rulings of the united councils authority, go ahead. But that would give them the same authoirty to make their theology, a theology that includes veneration of Mary and the saints, fact as well.

St. Mark went to Egypt and we know that because the Coptic Churches trace their heritage back to him. But is there a written note from 60ad saying "Mark..go to Egypt." Nope.

But the people of Egypt know it and have always maintained it and have churches and tradition that go back to him. The Same with Spain. Eventually it was written down and the church predated the records. Spainish records, we must remember, also had to survive the Muslim occupation and invasions. They were not always kind to Christian churches and sites.

Smileyill · Sep 14, 2006

RaggedRobin said:
let us see your first scripture in context shall we simon...

1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:
1Ti 2:2 For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.
It seems it say that intercession is acceptable to the Lord and Saviour. A perfect example of this, is the fact that the apostle here is praying, therefore he is using prayer as a means of intercession on the behalf of all men. That makes him an intrcessor between the people he is praying for and the Lord.

There goes one of your scriptures out the window because it was not used in proper context.

Joh 14:13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.
Yes this is true because there is OLY ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD THE FATHER, AND MAN...... THAT IS GOD THE SON. So therefore even those in heaven must offer their prayers to Jesus to offere them to God the Father.

Mostly makes sense. I'd insert that the above states nothing about asking other people to pray. Frankly, I have no problem with asking others to pray. The problem is asking the dead (or those alive in heaven). Then you have 2 orders of separation from scripture. (unless you accept more than 66 books). Plus, when Saul prayed to Samuel, Samuel rebuked him. i.e. a vague example that praying to the dead is wrong.

So to assert this teaching, you must distinguish a scripture story and add 2 orders of extrapolation to other scripture, dangerous.

Debi1967 · Sep 14, 2006

simonthezealot said:
Mary is Co-Mediatrix and can be entrusted with all our prayers.
( Catholic Catechismp. 968-970, 2677 )

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=26996694&postcount=573

Maybe Simon you are skipping posts here ......

simonthezealot · Sep 14, 2006

Smileyill said:
Mostly makes sense. I'd insert that the above states nothing about asking other people to pray. Frankly, I have no problem with asking others to pray. The problem is asking the dead (or those alive in heaven). Then you have 2 orders of separation from scripture. (unless you accept more than 66 books). Plus, when Saul prayed to Samuel, Samuel rebuked him. i.e. a vague example that praying to the dead is wrong.

So to assert this teaching, you must distinguish a scripture story and add 2 orders of extrapolation to other scripture, dangerous.

succint

Debi1967 · Sep 14, 2006

simonthezealot said:
Funny I didn't see anywhere on that page references of what early writers/writings these posters got their information from.

Funny then why do I not redirect you to where there are many .....
"For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all." Paul the Deacon, (ante A.D. 799).

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-VI

These are just some of the quotes from the Early Church Fathers.

Oblio · Sep 14, 2006

Plus, when Saul prayed to Samuel, Samuel rebuked him. i.e. a vague example that praying to the dead is wrong.

There was this little thing called the Cross , the grave and the Resurrection that changed all that

Jesus Christ alone is our Intercessor and our great High Priest.
1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14,
1 Peter 5:7

The verses in 1Tim are speaking of the Mediation wrought by the God-man Christ defeating death by death, not Intercessory prayer by fellow Christians.

Debi1967 · Sep 14, 2006

simonthezealot said:
Funny I didn't see anywhere on that page references of what early writers/writings these posters got their information from.

simonthezealot said:
succint

Why did Samuel rebuke him? Whom did he use in order to make contact with Samuel instead of trusting in the Lord?

He contradicted the 10 commandments by using a soothsayer, someone that practices withcraft.... He did not in anyway call Samuel back according to which was approved.

simonthezealot · Sep 14, 2006

RaggedRobin said:
Funny then why do I not redirect you to where there are many .....
"For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all." Paul the Deacon, (ante A.D. 799).

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-VI

These are just some of the quotes from the Early Church Fathers.

Rag,
Completely out of context...

really not praying to Mary???

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