REAL FIRE, or STRANGE FIRE?

[murjahel]

Mike Warnke did admit some failures, and he was a novice in ministry... He was saved from a life of sin, Satanism, and drugs... He too soon came into the ministry, without adequate spiritual training. He failed in financial accountability, and did not adequately protect himself from several other temptations. He repented, set up financial accountability with a reputable company who then reported that all was now honest, fair and acceptable.

The Christian Research group, who is very strict, some years after the Cornerstone expose, did some research and found the 'cornerstone' group had an agenda in their attack on MW and others who opposed Satanism... and that group was advocating 'goddess worship' and condoning homosexuality... the Christian Research group said their attack on Mike Warnke was hostile and ill intended.

It is time we take a look at attacks... I am here in this thread, evaluate what the Bible says on 'strange fire', not trying to validate what John MacArthur is going to say in his conference, or in his book. I do not even know what it is.

I know there will be much I do not agree with in his book, since I am not a cessationist. I have been presenting what the Bible says about 'strange fire', so I have adequate knowledge on the Biblical subject to evaluate and test what John MacArthur says.

Some have said I am defending him, helping him, and probably due to these attacks, some of might think I am him... LOL I tire of the unjustified attacks, and the one on Mike Warnke is also a misrepresentation of what is actually truth. He was not perfect, neither am I, neither are you... but the harsh, some untrue, unforgiving attitude of some is horrible.

When John MacArthur speaks, when his book comes out, I will judge it by its doctrine, by its accuracy of charges... I do not come here to attack persons, but their teachings. If John MacArthur is accurate in his interpretation of Scripture on strange fire, I will say so, unafraid of the attackers here. I will not be intimidated or scared off by unjustified and false charges like have already been made.

If John MacArthur is un-Scriptural, and says untrue things about the ones he is to expose, I will condemn the action, and still pray for the man. Somehow, I feel that way is better than the 'attack the man' philosophy. We are told to
'pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you' and that is my way of handling even some here.

The 'attack the person' is far more common than it should be. Mike Warnke could use prayers. The Cornerstone newspaper misrepresented much, came to unwarranted and untrue conclusions, and it was done purposely... and proven by Christian Research, The 'attack the man' philosophy is so widely accepted, few will ever give him an opportunity...

Jimmy Swaggart failed and repented... Jim Bakker failed and repented... both might fail again... but they have to get in line behind us in that... This 'attack' syndrome is why many never accepted Paul, for while Saul, he helped in stoning Stephen. We could judge Peter for his denials of the Lord, and we could judge David for his seduction of Bathsheba, his involvement in the death of her husband... Wow... why not start a denomination of attacking all that have failed??? I speak in sarcasm... for a mirror in such a church would likely be broken the first day, for in it, they would see the person they should be judging.

So... ATTACKERS.. GO FOR IT. Keep misrepresenting what I say, misquote me, insult me, harass me, and enjoy it. I am going to continue to still teach what the Bible says, and not join your ways.

 

[Gracelands]

Powerful and timely post for me there Murjahel. Thank God for His infinite mercy and love. Prodigal sons ( those who sin) are always welcome back on course by the Father. The Shepherd searches for the lamb ( child) that has run off in a direction He isn't leading them through.

He restores our soul (Psalm 23.3)

God is our Father. How can He stop loving us, healing us, teaching and correcting us? If the best of an earthly reflection of His fatherhood can love unconditionally then surely its a given that our heavenly Father can do so too. Suggestions that He doesn't is actually tantamount to an insult.

Seems like there's always going to be attack Murjahel. Lets remember to keep our armour on.

Thanks for the post. Praying for all those pastors you mentioned.

 

[Gracelands]

Granted. Leave the battle to the Lord when accusations come. You're right thats the best way.

Still hold your shield of faith up; put your helmet on because the enemy likes to wallop you over the head with his broad sword... trying to confuse, trick and accuse; fasten the breast plate of righteousness ( keep affirming who we are through the grace of God); wield the sword of the spirit and fasten the shoes of the gospel of peace ( preach it, testify).

I'm sure those preachers know all that battle 101 but for anyone not familiar with the verse the armour comes from Ephesians 6 10-18.

 

[probinson]

Also regarding Mike Warnke, here is an entire book about it, "Selling Satan: The Evangelical Media and the Mike Warnke Scandal"

Now I've never personally read the book, so I can't comment, but here are some comments from reviewers;

"This is depressing. I'm depressed that I have to give this book 5 stars, because I would be so much happier if the research were sloppy or inaccurate. Then I could possibly believe that the allegations about Mike Warnke were indeed false. But this book is so thurough, it's sad..."

"I have been a fan of Warnke's since about '91. I was amazed when I came across this book. A part of me wanted to resist the evidence presented at the beginning of the book. I wanted to believe that Warnke's family and friends simpley remembered things differently than he did. As the book progressed however, the evidence, pictures, dates, activities, that the authors presented became harder to make to excuse..."

"This is very well researched and I wonder why it wasn't written before now. All anyone had to do was ask someone who knew Mike Warnke during the period in question. I was a BIG Mike Warnke fan. I bought all of his albums and saw him in person. I was hoping to read it and find a lot of half-cocked, half-baked theories and conjecture. I did not. But surprisingly it wasn't a typical celebrity expose either. These journalists seem to be truly humble people. So much so, that when I finished reading it, I didn't feel superior or hateful, I was humbled and edified..."

"...I find it amusing, however, that the people who are accusing the writers of this book of dishonesty are also stooping to name-calling, and at the same time degrading the book's authors and promoters as name-callers. That's like saying, "Stop calling me names, you pooh-pooh head!" I understand that there are a great number of people that loved Mike's public image in the past, and several people still do. This causes an emotional reaction to the truth, and that makes it almost impossible for some people to take..."

"...One thing I noticed about this book is the humility of its authors. They weren't out to get Warnke, but to speak the truth in love and hope he responded. Just on that account alone I would recommend Selling Satan as a good read...

...To those still backing Warnke, wake up. A ministry based on lies is no ministry at all."
​

 

[Gracelands]

I don't know about the back and forth or even if the authors have repented sincerely. i'd like to say though its one thing for secular writers to viciously, accuse and judge but when its christian authors it gives off entirely the wrong impression and is counter productive to the ministry of Christ and the universal church.

 

[murjahel]

The author of the book on Mike Warnke is the same author as in the Cornerstone mag article... that mag is now extinct, and its final days were revelations about its promotion of 'goddess worship' and condoning of homosexuality... I believe Mike did fail in certain areas.. but he has repented, and is a saved child of God... The book misrepresents him and mischaracterizes his failings as making all his testimony to be untrue... His testimony is true, and the 200,000 dollar salary that was so objectionable to many in that day, is now peanuts compared to what the heros of some in the church are collecting for themselves in our day.

This is a thread on 'strange fire' so I will be bold enough to claim that though it had a smidge of truth in it, the book on Mike Warnke was 'strange fire' for all the misrepresentation and twistings therein.

 

[Ajax 777]

I don't know about the back and forth

...And the wheels on the bus go round and round. And round. And round. And round. All through the town.

 

[probinson]

I don't know about the back and forth or even if the authors have repented sincerely. i'd like to say though its one thing for secular writers to viciously, accuse and judge but when its christian authors it gives off entirely the wrong impression and is counter productive to the ministry of Christ and the universal church.

But that's exactly what this thread is doing in its accusations of "strange fire".

If Mike Warnke really is guilty of lying and deceiving countless people, it is "judging" him to point that out?

I would agree with you that there are far too many Christians running around gleefully accusing and attacking people and thinking nothing of it. But what if there really is a problem? It it "judging" to point out that someone lied if they actually did lie?

 

[probinson]

It's interesting rather than focusing on the facts contained in the Mike Warnke book, the authors of the book are being "attacked". That's exactly what we've been told we should not do. Apparently it's OK. In this situation. For some reason...

So far we've learned that it's OK to attack the authors of the Mike Warnke book to discredit them so as not to have to deal with the hard facts contained in the book, but we should not "attack" John MacArthur but rather look past decades of valid reasons to question John MacArthur's credibility as it pertains to the Charismatic movement.

It seems that there are some major beams obscuring the view of some splinters in play here.

 

[Messy]

Regarding 1: Really? And if so, then why has no 'seasoned and prudent Pentecostal or charismatic believer' stepped up to attempt to publicly address the issue, like maybe in a 3 day conference, etc.?

Why should you keep a conference about it? My pastor just warns his flock for false teaching. I've been to TACF a lot of times. One thing that bothered us was that they didn't test anything, which is bad, but what's worse? I wanted to find out on internet if a preacher was okay or not. Of course he wasn't, but neither was any other charismatic preacher, of whom I know they have real fire. You know a tree by its fruits, I don't need a heresy hunter who doesn't have fire himself to tell me. The Holy Spirit convinces me and sometimes He uses a Spirit filled on fire preacher to confirm it. There are leaders here like Matteus van der Steen, whom they also accuse of having false fire, but it's real, who says he has nothing to do with a specific ministry, the one I doubted if this was from God.
The difference will be quite obvious:
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

 

[Gracelands]

But that's exactly what this thread is doing in its accusations of "strange fire".

If Mike Warnke really is guilty of lying and deceiving countless people, it is "judging" him to point that out?

I would agree with you that there are far too many Christians running around gleefully accusing and attacking people and thinking nothing of it. But what if there really is a problem? It it "judging" to point out that someone lied if they actually did lie?

Paul suggests to take a couple of people to restore a person who is caught in sin gently not make a meal out of it and publicly humiliate a person.

".. if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted"
galatians 6:1

Otherwise i'd suggest then we are caught in sin ourselves by treating a brother or sister in that way.

 

[Gracelands]

...And the wheels on the bus go round and round. And round. And round. And round. All through the town.

lol yeah i can see how the constant thesis/antithesis propels us.Is the bus going round in circles or straight forward though? Thats what i wonder.

 

[probinson]

Paul suggests to take a couple of people to restore a person who is caught in sin gently not make a meal out of it and publicly humiliate a person.

I agree, and admittedly I don't know much about the Mike Warnke situation. But what if that person doesn't respond to your gentle correction? What if they persist in their lie? Then what?

Additionally, this conference that John MacArthur is having is not just making a meal out of it. It's a veritable buffet!

".. if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted"
galatians 6:1

Otherwise i'd suggest then we are caught in sin ourselves by treating a brother or sister in that way.

Very true. That's exactly why I could care less what Mr. MacArthur thinks about Charismatics.

 

[probinson]

lol yeah i can see how the constant thesis/antithesis propels us.Is the bus going round in circles or straight forward though? Thats what i wonder.

I think it's something like this;

 

[murjahel]

I don't know about the back and forth or even if the authors have repented sincerely. i'd like to say though its one thing for secular writers to viciously, accuse and judge but when its christian authors it gives off entirely the wrong impression and is counter productive to the ministry of Christ and the universal church.

the ability to forgive fallen brothers, is a great quality... thank you for confirming that others have that...

Mike Warnke stretched a few details of the story... we used to call that 'evangelistically speaking'... and crowd size, coven size, etc was stretched and caught... He admitted to it... but the foundation of his story is still true, despite the 'stretching' of a few points allowing critics to horribly attack the basis of his testimony...

thanks for standing for 'forgiveness'... I do too...

we may have to forgive many others soon, if what John MacArthur says is true... but we will evaluate that as we go..

 

[murjahel]

I was able to watch a bit of the first session of that conference.

As I have stated often to those who misquote me, despite their misquotes, I did find that John MacArthur and I disagree on a good number of points.

I am not a cessationist, and am in the middle on arminianism and Calvinism, so those differences alone would make him seldom say 'amen' to my thread here.

The subject of this thread is what the Bible says about 'strange fire', now I am in a process of evaluating what he has to say on that same subject. I am glad I did this study, for I am far more prepared to evaluate his ideas better.

In all fairness, I need to do more study on what he has to say. Some have already written off his ideas, and that is the easy way. There is 'strange fire' as described in the Bible... and if he finds some in the charismatic movement would be no surprise.

I have been a Pentecostal believer for more than 60 years, and have seen tons of strange fire over the years. But, does he have a valid point or points to show us?

Everyone here feels justified to give their opinion, and all can have valid opinions... we need to evaluate our own opinions by the Word of God... and we need to learn to prove our ideas have justification by the Word of God...

I am awaiting the book, to evaluate more fairly than to go by short excerpts of hearing what he has to say.... so far, I find the many differences I expected, and still found one agreement, ....

I do not want to go by what some here have to think, their minds were made up without hearing any of it, and to trust them with a 'quote' now, is useless, for it has been demonstrated that they misquote, misrepresent what I say over and over, even when corrected over and over, so to trust what they say 'he said' would be a futile attempt to think I am that foolish... LOL

so, when I have his full explanation of his concerns on strange fire, I will compare them with my understanding of the words... and verify with Scripture... till then, he is not saying 'amen' to my words, so I guess my critics here are on his side in that LOL

 

[murjahel]

Preaching any message not based on truths of the Word of God is 'strange fire'. When a new doctrine disagrees with the Word of God, it is strange fire. When the Bible has to be ignored to promote a message, it is strange fire. Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire and God judged them. We live in a day in which there is a bit of time left for sinners to repent. I pray they do.

Anger at 'true fire' is not unusual. Jeremiah wrote the king a message from God and it was torn up by the king. Many have torn the truths of the Bible from their hearts and from their minds, in our time.

The books of the Pentateuch were lost in the Temple, and no one seemed to notice until they were found during Josiah's reign. When he read them to the people, they realized how sinful they had become, and how far from the commands of God, they had strayed. How far from Biblical principles, how far from true righteousness has the church gone? The strange fire can be listened to on many so called Christian networks, we view the strange fire daily if we choose to. How far from the true fire will God allow us to go, before He handles it with suddenness as He did with Nadab and Abihu???

If someone stole your Bible, how long would it be before you missed it?

 

[murjahel]

It is a shame that 'holiness' is a foreign term to many. We are saved and made 'new creations' in Christ Jesus. Therefore, if we are saved, a righteous life is natural, not force, not a list of laws we have to force upon ourselves. No, it is a love, joy, peace, etc that comes in to us from the Holy Spirit, and the flesh that once ruled, is no longer in charge. We want to be righteous, pure, holy, and Christ-like.

Strange fire is when some stand up, falsely claiming to be of Christ, and offer a doctrine that is totally contrary to what God has done. Jesus died for us, like the lamb on the altar, and that death was accepted by God by the fire that fell upon the altar, and when Nadab and Abihu offered incense, i.e. prayers, with strange fire, it was a defiant denial of the work of the God in redeeming mankind.

The defiance today of fleshly, carnal, sinful man, in the flesh, indulging what God has said in not just 'culturally wrong', not just 'old fashioned wrong', but is Biblically wrong... it is STRANGE FIRE.

We are to battle demons and witches, we are to be modest and not fleshly driven, inappropriate contentography is sinful, exhibitionism is not even considered anything of righteousness, sexual fantasies are condemned, drugs are unneeded for joy and peace.... holy living is something that is being Christ like... and those things are REAL FIRE.

The corruption of strange fire in many charismatic leaders, their false doctrines, fake miracles, greedy and mammon loving appeals for more money to finance a decadent lifestyle is either the result of the carnal lives of the hearers, or the cause of the carnal life of the hearers, or both. From my research so far, it is both.

More to come...

 

[Andrea411]

Exactly.

Yet there are people here who are absolutely enamored with this conference. Thread after thread after thread talks about what John MacArthur's conference will "expose" and how we should all be ashamed because John MacArthur is having a conference. (Did I mention John MacArthur was having a conference? )

It's disturbing that this much attention is being given to MacArthur's conference in this Charismatic forum.

Lee Grady wrote this in 2009
Strange Fire in the House of the Lord

seems he was already working to expose strange practices....

 

[murjahel]

Sorry to have been away from the computer so much today, I was in meetings, and detained from the ability to keep up here... This thread is on strange fire, and seems to be an arsonist or more active in our world... for there are strange fires in many locations...

Will get back on this, but right now, the fire department needs called, and we need to handle some 'strange fires.' God has a
'volunteer fire department' and the devil has a volunteer 'arson department'... and the latter can keep busy the former... LOL