Reading over the CO forum...

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Do folks feel primary saddened or vindicated by the utter disdain in which we are held by many of the Creationists when they post on their own turf?

Apparently we're promoters of the God of Death, for example.

 

[Didaskomenos]

Of those two, saddened. Primarily, though, I feel great frustration for the Kingdom of God.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Removing slight tongue in cheekness, it has to be saddened, doesn't it? I just find that sometimes my ability to be sad about it runs out and it merely vindicates the necessity of what we're doing.

 

[neverforsaken]

i guess i symathize with them. i mean up until a while ago, i was one of them. But the truth shall set you free. And when i was tired of being a fundamentalist with both fingers in my ears, I was able to see the light, and it has done nothing but strengthen my belief in God. So, if I can learn the truth, that means others can too. Lets not forget that insults are the last result of someone who has run out of intelligent things to say.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

What really gets to me is the false witness. According to the CO forum, we're desperate for evidence, we're consciously running away from God, we credit God with the works of Satan, we "trample the sacred truth of Scripture under [our] feet like a herd of swine". We willingly listen to Satan's lies, and so on and so forth.


What gives them the right to talk this way?

 

[neverforsaken]

i just dont see what is wrong with believing a science that didnt exist when the bible was written. i mean, for goodness sakes, people were jailed for saying the earth was round in the past. they said that it was blasphemous. and guess what....the earth is round! Does that make the Bible any less true? of course not. Does that mean that anyone who believes the earth is round is an agent of satan? Absolutely not. The bible states that it was written by man but inspired by God. Man at the time had to write it in ways they could understand. Only a few generations ago was it discovered that there is such a thing as microscopic organisms. And only half a century ago was DNA discovered. The bible is NOT a book of science. It was never meant to be.

 

[Dracil]

The entire CO forum is in violation of Rule 1 then. The forum should be removed.

 

[Dark_Lite]

I am generally more disturbed by than saddened at the Creationism forum. But it still is quite saddening to see the stuff in there.

 

[Battie]

I spend more time on C&E than I do here, but I see the same things going on there. It makes me both sad and angry (very angry, in fact) to see how vicious some people, who are supposed to be Christ-like, can be. I used to be a YEC, so I understand the feelings they may have, but I never spoke to anyone with the self-righteous contempt that I and others are treated with.

I don't understand why those who carry that attitude rail at evolutionists for trying to "destroy their faith" when their own hatefulness is doing more to damage their cause than any scientific theory ever can.

I know a lot of creationists and most are not that way, but reading these forums really gets to me sometimes.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I spend more time on C&E than I do here, but I see the same things going on there. It makes me both sad and angry (very angry, in fact) to see how vicious some people, who are supposed to be Christ-like, can be. I used to be a YEC, so I understand the feelings they may have, but I never spoke to anyone with the self-righteous contempt that I and others are treated with.

I don't understand why those who carry that attitude rail at evolutionists for trying to "destroy their faith" when their own hatefulness is doing more to damage their cause than any scientific theory ever can.

I know a lot of creationists and most are not that way, but reading these forums really gets to me sometimes.

i think part of the answer, and only part, is found in the martyr complex that evangelicalism has been nursing for at least 75 years. Since the American Civil War, the church has consistently been losing to the forces of secularization, of rationalistic science, of a pragmatism that ignores questions of morality. Part of the response has simply been to withdraw from public engagement, to erect barriers that hopefully won't let these ideas into the church communities to seduce their young from the particular consensus of their churches. it is a siege mentality, a lagar (wagon train circle under attack) mindset.

and because of this anything that appears to challenge this worldview is repelled with great force and nastiness because it is a Manichean world out there, it is us with God against the Devil and all his workers.

i think it is part of the cultural mileu that the conservative churches have fallen into over the century of battles with rationalism outside and with liberalism inside.

.....

 

[Battie]

i think part of the answer, and only part, is found in the martyr complex that evangelicalism has been nursing for at least 75 years. Since the American Civil War, the church has consistently been losing to the forces of secularization, of rationalistic science, of a pragmatism that ignores questions of morality. Part of the response has simply been to withdraw from public engagement, to erect barriers that hopefully won't let these ideas into the church communities to seduce their young from the particular consensus of their churches. it is a siege mentality, a lagar (wagon train circle under attack) mindset.

and because of this anything that appears to challenge this worldview is repelled with great force and nastiness because it is a Manichean world out there, it is us with God against the Devil and all his workers.

i think it is part of the cultural mileu that the conservative churches have fallen into over the century of battles with rationalism outside and with liberalism inside.

.....

That's a very interesting point. I'm taking a course on religion in the United States this fall; I wonder if they'll expand on this.

Speaking of martyr complexes, I have noticed and individualistic form of this on C&E and on forums for other subjects. When I or someone else confronts a brother or sister on their attitude, they claim that they take pride in the "persecution" that they are receiving because Jesus said they would have to suffer for their faith. Nothing can persuade those with this mindset that it is their manner and not their beliefs that are causing negative responses.

 

[theFijian]

What really gets to me is the false witness. According to the CO forum, we're desperate for evidence, we're consciously running away from God, we credit God with the works of Satan, we "trample the sacred truth of Scripture under [our] feet like a herd of swine". We willingly listen to Satan's lies, and so on and so forth.

I concur. I don't mind people telling me they think I'm wrong, but I object to being told that I am less of a Christian because I do not agree with whatever they believe. What I find astonishing amongst YEC I've encountered in my own denomination is that they don't realise that a 'plain reading of the text' is in actual fact an interpretation. They then presumptuously equivocate their interpretation to with the infallible scripture and accuse me of accepting the fallible theories of sinful men over the Word of God.

 

[neverforsaken]

reading the bible in a very literal way is not a good idea for multiple reasons. for one, the bible especially the king james version is not a fully correct interpretation of the original text. for example, i cant count how many times i have to correct people that the commandment is thou shalt not "kill" its, thou shalt not murder. Leviticus is translated into meaning "for the priests". anyway, another reason is that one should study the bible not just read it. its the same as hearing something instead of listening to it. the jews, which christianity came from, place strong emphasis on studying the bible and pursuing truth.

 

[Critias]

reading the Bible completely literally is a fallacy of understanding yec's interpretational methods. I have presented a small post on the hermeneutics of a yec. So, if you haven't been told before, you are so told now. To continue to say yec's interpret the complete Bible literally will be being dishonest.

Lastly, I am aware many are bothered by the posts in the CO forum, but how about just forgiving them and forgetting it?

If that is too much to ask, then it is too much to ask Jesus to forgive your sins and forget them.

Jesus said, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.

The continuing of this thread bantering about how horrible those yec's are, shows you have not forgiven them. If you did, you wouldn't have much to say about it, rather you would turn the other cheek.

Don't let your hearts be troubled with how others perceive you, worry more about how God sees you.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Of course we know YECs don't take the entire Bible literally.

However, reading Genesis completely literal today is a danger to modern society.

 

[gluadys]

I never even read the CO forum--except when it first came into existence.

I just find it very sad that they find they need the protection of a private forum all their own. Staying out of the open forum shows how weak the science of YECism is. But needing a private space within the Christian forum hi-lights how weak YECist theology is. It can only survive in greenhouse conditions.

And that is what makes it dangerous. Children can be raised so long in a theological greenhouse, but sooner or later they will be exposed to the winds of other teachings, including other Christian teachings, and they will have no idea what hit them or how to deal with it.

In a way, it's a variation on old order Amish separation.

 

[Critias]

Or perhaps another option is that they wish to have a place to talk about their beliefs without someone attacking them for having them.

Just as this is a CO forum, where Christians can go and speak about God without Atheists attacking them for it.

It is all in how you choose to see things.

 

[Battie]

And that is what makes it dangerous. Children can be raised so long in a theological greenhouse, but sooner or later they will be exposed to the winds of other teachings, including other Christian teachings, and they will have no idea what hit them or how to deal with it.

I agree. I'm kind of experiencing this myself. If I had never been a YEC, I might be fine now.

I'm a trusting person. Even if something doesn't make sense to me, I trust that whoever claims to know more must understand how it all works. I never thought Christians would lie to me. And, no, I don't think most creationists are lying. But the people in charge, the people who produce this bad science, are lying.

That hurts really bad when you realize what's happened. I used to be very anti-evolution. When an evolutionist said something that sounded pretty convincing, I just figured that someone had the answer to that. I trusted in the creation scientists. But slowly I began to feel uncomfortable and began to learn the truth about it. And now I have to wonder--if so many feel the need to keep up an illusion to make their faith seem more "valid," what else are we deluded about? What else are we misinterpreting so that it sounds nicer, or makes more sense?

I consider myself an open minded person, and I can accept new ideas about the Christian faith. But deep inside, I keep thinking, I was so wrong about Genesis. Could I be wrong about the whole thing?

It isn't accepting evolution that's hurt my faith; it's the fact that I was convinced that I had to reject it to make things work.

I can't really describe the turmoil this whole thing has caused in me, but all I can say, again, is that it hurts.

 

[gluadys]

I consider myself an open minded person, and I can accept new ideas about the Christian faith. But deep inside, I keep thinking, I was so wrong about Genesis. Could I be wrong about the whole thing?

It isn't accepting evolution that's hurt my faith; it's the fact that I was convinced that I had to reject it to make things work.

I can't really describe the turmoil this whole thing has caused in me, but all I can say, again, is that it hurts.

And you are far from the only person who has felt this pain. Some of the most bitter and militant atheists I have come across are those who abandoned, not only YECism, but Christianity because of their disillusionment.

I think it is good that you are asking if you could be wrong about the whole thing. One of the big influences on my thinking was Soren Kierkegaard and other theistic existentialists like Martin Buber and Gabriel Marcel.

They opened up my understanding that Christian life must be lived in the awareness that we do have it all wrong. But in faith and trust we commit ourselves to God and the way of Jesus anyway. Kierkegaard compares faith to being suspended above 10,000 fathoms of water and deciding to take the plunge without any assurance that God will be there to hold us up. Faith, by definition, is risky. We do risk having it all wrong.

The other thing the existentialists emphasized is that faith is less about having the facts right than about having the relationship right. I've just been reading a marvellous little book by Marcus Borg called The Heart of Christianity. It is subtitled "Rediscovering a Life of Faith" and explores the question "How can we be passionate believers today?"

(Kierkegaard's great theme was about the passion of believing. He was disgusted by the comfortable non-committal Christianity of his generation that made no demands--intellectual, moral or otherwise.)

Borg contrasts what he calls the earlier paradigm of Christianity (the one most Protestants were raised in) with the emerging paradigm of Christianity. For me, reading this book brought back the excitement I felt in reading the existentialists and early presentations of this emerging paradigm by authors like John T. Robinson (Honest to God).

I think you would find it very helpful, especially as Borg is not at all condemnatory of the earlier paradigm, recognizing that it has played an important role for good in the lives of millions of Christians.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

I just end up in hysterics at how sad it is that Christians keep fighting about this kind of stuff, when there is SOOO much more important stuff out there to fight against and for! Part of the reason I left CF in the first place - saw too many petty disagreements over very trivial things that do NOTHING to increase the kingdom of God. Think about what a non-Christian would think if they saw all this fighting and namecalling and division amongst people that they, apparently, are supposed to be themselves.

Let's get our minds in the right places, and realise that none of this stuff is going to matter when we get to heaven!!!!

Sasch