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Read this and decide about the war!

panterapat

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See men shredded, then say you don't back war
By Ann Clwyd



“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.


For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.



The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.


In Christ (may He have mercy of us)
Patrick
 
Yes Its revolting.. The same thing happens in slaughter houses.. to humans who accidently fall in machinery (Fast Food Nation)

what i also fine Disgusting is the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Women and children dying 4000 a week as a direct result of the bombings that occured during the gulf war, due to water/soil/air pollution caused by the bombs dropped and due to the 5Billion dollors of Humanitarian aid being Blocked in Washington That would help these oppressed people LIVE.

I cant understand how you can be PRO-WAR

Again i ask.. How will this war bring glory to God???

Should we not as Christians do all things for the glory of God...

I somehow don't see Iraqi Children coming to know christ by Bombing them and leaving them to rott in the gutter,
 
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Since the bible says there is a time for war and a time for peace... We will bomb the **** out of Iraq... Hey the bible said SO!!!

Thats great thats really great! now we are trying to justify this war in the name of God...

My God, The god of love and compassion WOULD NEVER support such an unjust war
 
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Yekcidmij

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Laume,

Somehow I knew someone would say that. Im not saying to do this in the name of God or anything, dont get me wrong. God didnt tell me "Hey lets bomb Iraq" . All that said was that there is a time for war and a time for peace. As for me I think in order to achieve peace, sometimes there is going to be war. As for Iraq it seems the time for peace is out.
 
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Michael0701

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panterapat,

I hope you and your organization get to see the fruits of your labor. Sadly though, I dont think you will be changing anyone's mind. By now the arguments have been made public, the accusations documented and it's just a matter of time before the bombs start dropping. Those who have chosen to condemn the US and president Bush for their actions will continue to do so. It is my hope and prayer that they don't take it out on our servicemen and women.
 
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Kristen

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Yesterday at 10:59 PM panterapat said this in Post #1

See men shredded, then say you don't back war
By Ann Clwyd



“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.


For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.



The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.


In Christ (may He have mercy of us)
Patrick

I don't even know what to say. This is horrifying. He needs to be stopped, whatever it takes.
 
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caley

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Most of it is probably fabrications. In the first Iraq war, there was a story about Iraqi soldiers ripping Kuwati babies from incubators. There was a TV interview with a "nurse" who was crying and claiming that she witnessed it firsthand. After the war ended, it turned out that the "nurse" was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador, and the story was a complete fabrication. It wouldn't surprise me to see more of this.
 
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Yesterday at 06:59 AM panterapat said this

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Yep, bad stuff happens in Iraq. There's a shocker. The only problem with the "invade Iraq in order to stop human rights abuses" is that the US can not and will not remain consistent with such a policy. They're not even consistent with it now, given the atrocities American allies perform daily. The US has no intention of invading every nation with human rights abuses, nor should they, so there is a great deal of danger in using such arguments to justify war.

Yesterday at 06:59 AM panterapat said this
For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Going to war for breaking a UN resolution is another faulty reason for war, given that American allies are currently in violation of many UN resolutions. America has no intention of going to war against the vast majority of offenders in this regard, so it is inconsistent to use this as a reason to invade Iraq.

Yesterday at 06:59 AM panterapat said this
Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.

They are illegal. Morally, one can see the justification for their existence, and those who patrol the zones should perhaps be commended for their actions. But it's still not legal.

Yesterday at 06:59 AM panterapat said this
For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

This article seems very intent on eliminating the American moral high ground in this whole episode. For half of those 20 years, the US actively supported those Iraqi officials, supplying money and weapons of mass destruction.

Yesterday at 06:59 AM panterapat said this
of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s,

Is this the one that the US promised to support, and then backed off, allowing those Kurds to be slaughtered?

Yesterday at 06:59 AM panterapat said this

As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century.

In studying history as I do, I would not place any of Iraq's actions very high on the list of the worst crimes of the century. Hussien can't hold a candle to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Pinochet, or Diem.

I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

Yesterday at 06:59 AM panterapat said this
This evil, fascist regime must come to an end.

There's nothing fascist about Iraq. The use of the word is specifically designed to bring up images of Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy and thus promote negative emotions. The use of fascist here is incorrect and blatantly manipulative.

And now my own thoughts, before I am pigeon-holed into an argument I do not support. At no point did I claim to be against invasion of Iraq. At no point did I defend Hussein. At no point did I claim Hussein should not be removed from power.
I merely dislike many of the given justifications behind this war; they tend to come off as hollow and reek of self-interest disguised as valor.
 
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caley

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Today at 07:30 PM MichaelFJF said this in Post #12

Yeah - and the ovens were "fabrications" too. Ever notice how many complete idiots know how to use a computer? M


Thank you for flaming me.

 

Seriously, come on guys.  It isn't like the government hasn't lied to the populace to drum up support for war in the past.  What I posted above is the most pertinent example I could think of.  The government spread lies before the Vietnam war, it spread lies before the first Iraq war, it spread lies during the first two world wars, it continues to spread lies about the drug war and the war on terrorism.  Am I alone in my distrust of the government based on its past?

Secondly, Saddam Hussein may be a mother****er, but he is not Hitler.  If we don't go after him, it's not like he's going to (or even has the ability to) try to take over the world and commit mass genocide.  The evidence presented in the OP is pretty much hearsay, whereas with Hitler there were scores of documented evidence that told the entire world exactly what he was up to.
 
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Doctrine1st

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Today at 05:12 AM caley said this in Post #14




Thank you for flaming me.

 

Seriously, come on guys.  It isn't like the government hasn't lied to the populace to drum up support for war in the past.  What I posted above is the most pertinent example I could think of.  The government spread lies before the Vietnam war, it spread lies before the first Iraq war, it spread lies during the first two world wars, it continues to spread lies about the drug war and the war on terrorism.  Am I alone in my distrust of the government based on its past?


I understand exactly what you're saying, but I guess the tone around here is that even in the political world of bribery, backstabbing, and partisan politics, Bush has a integrity beyound all those, for example, who served the last 5 terms as President who decieved and lied to the end.
 
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caley

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Today at 12:22 AM Doctrine1st said this in Post #15



I understand exactly what you're saying, but I guess the tone around here is that even in the political world of bribery, backstabbing, and partisan politics, Bush has a integrity beyound all those, for example, who served the last 5 terms as President who decieved and lied to the end.

I don't think Bush is any better than the last five Presidents.
 
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datan

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previous lies (that I've brought up before and no one seems to want to discuss them) used as justifications for war:

1. Iraqi soldiers snatching poor Kuwaiti babies from incubators: http://www.fair.org/activism/hbo-gulf-hoax.html
2. Iraqi tanks massing on Saudi Arabia's borders: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4599302,00.html (Powell was involved in this as well)
3. pentagon papers: http://www.vva.org/pentagon/history/history.html
4. gulf of tonkin resolution: http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html

just recently:
5. evil Iraqi drone spewing chemical and biological agents
6. high-yield aluminium tubes used for Iraqi's nuclear programme
(debunked by UN/IAEA officials)
 
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caley

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Today at 04:33 AM datan said this in Post #19

previous lies (that I've brought up before and no one seems to want to discuss them) used as justifications for war:

1. Iraqi soldiers snatching poor Kuwaiti babies from incubators: http://www.fair.org/activism/hbo-gulf-hoax.html
2. Iraqi tanks massing on Saudi Arabia's borders: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4599302,00.html (Powell was involved in this as well)
3. pentagon papers: http://www.vva.org/pentagon/history/history.html
4. gulf of tonkin resolution: http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html

just recently:
5. evil Iraqi drone spewing chemical and biological agents
6. high-yield aluminium tubes used for Iraqi's nuclear programme
(debunked by UN/IAEA officials)


yes.
 
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