LDS Read the Book of Mormon?

[Rescued One]

Well, that was my point, that it made no sense to assume that God would out of the blue contact someone at some arbitrary time. And because of that, any time that we got contacted by someone, it was just as likely that the being doing the contacting was an evil impostor as it was that the being was God. So it makes more sense to go on the faith that God will answer a question that one asks than that God will out of the blue tell one something.

Phoebe Ann, why do you think that God "has told us that He does the converting"?

Because He wants us to know that no one else can do it.

Appearances can be deceiving. I believe there's a purpose for every word that God has inspired. I just think one should be sure that God has inspired a book of scripture before one starts believing God has.

I am sure.

Saved him from what?

Saved from the wages of our sins, saved from walking in darkness, saved from not having God's Spirit, saved from not recognizing the Savior's voice, saved from not having every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

How, then, do you know that he that is making all those decisions is in fact God, and isn't an evil impostor trying to deceive you into believing that he is God?

Because flesh and blood have not revealed it to me and I now recognize the Savior's voice.

Phoebe Ann, how do you know that any of these verses tell the truth about God?

Because the Shepherd leads His sheep and the Holy Spirit guides me.

How do you know that you aren't heaping coals of fire upon your head?

 

[fatboys]

Because He wants us to know that no one else can do it.



I am sure.



Saved from the wages of our sins, saved from walking in darkness, saved from not having God's Spirit, saved from not recognizing the Savior's voice, saved from not having every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.



Because flesh and blood have not revealed it to me and I now recognize the Savior's voice.



Because the Shepherd leads His sheep and the Holy Spirit guides me.

How do you know that you aren't heaping coals of fire upon your head?

I told you

 

[KevinSim]

I am sure.

How did you gain your surety that God inspired it?

Because flesh and blood have not revealed it to me and I now recognize the Savior's voice.

Are flesh and blood the only things that can deceive? How did you conclude that it was the Savior's voice the first time that you heard it?

How do you know that you aren't heaping coals of fire upon your head?

I don't worry too much about heaping coals on my head. I would gladly heap tons of coals of fire on my head if I thought God wanted me to. I would be kind of surprised if He wanted me to, though.

 

[Rescued One]

How did you gain your surety that God inspired it?

Are flesh and blood the only things that can deceive? How did you conclude that it was the Savior's voice the first time that you heard it?

That is between me and God. There was a reason I quoted Jesus.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I don't worry too much about heaping coals on my head. I would gladly heap tons of coals of fire on my head if I thought God wanted me to. I would be kind of surprised if He wanted me to, though.

To be honest, I didn't think you'd be concerned.

 

[fatboys]

Because He wants us to know that no one else can do it.



I am sure.



Saved from the wages of our sins, saved from walking in darkness, saved from not having God's Spirit, saved from not recognizing the Savior's voice, saved from not having every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.



Because flesh and blood have not revealed it to me and I now recognize the Savior's voice.



Because the Shepherd leads His sheep and the Holy Spirit guides me.

How do you know that you aren't heaping coals of fire upon your head?

The savior spoke to you?

 

[KevinSim]

That is between me and God. There was a reason I quoted Jesus.

I can respect your desire that it be a private thing. You have a right to keep to yourself your reasons for believing that God inspired the Bible. But if you choose to not tell me how you know God inspired it, you can't expect me to conclude that you do know God inspired it.

 

[FreeinChrist]

How do you know the Bible speaks for God?

Would it have made sense for a Muslim to pray and ask God if Christianity was true, and then look for God to answer her/his question in the Qur'an?

We know the Old Testament is scripture as it was used by Jesus Christ himself! That is a powerful witness. We know the New Testament is quoted in its entirety (though in sections of verses) by the early church fathers with the exception of 11 verses. We know that the writings that make up the NT were shared by the early church and became the basis for the creeds and doctrinal statements. We have the OT and the NT in original languages and is online here:

www.scripture4all.org

It was not just a matter of prayer but of the witness of Jesus Christ, and the witness of the early church, and that the New Testament is built on the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit leads, but His witness has been there all along.

In contrast, it seems the Book of Mormon, was in the ground and hidden for many centuries, it it existed at all. I see no reason to believe in it, and suspect that Joseph Smith wrote it himself as it plagarized the KJV Bible in many places.

 

[FreeinChrist]

So they are or are not God's words themselves?

The creeds are Statements of Faith. They are taken from scripture and are Bible based.

 

[Jane_Doe]

We know the Old Testament is scripture as it was used by Jesus Christ himself! That is a powerful witness. We know the New Testament is quoted in its entirety (though in sections of verses) by the early church fathers with the exception of 11 verses. We know that the writings that make up the NT were shared by the early church and became the basis for the creeds and doctrinal statements. We have the OT and the NT in original languages and is online here:

www.scripture4all.org

Again, *how* do you know that this is not all bunk?
(I'm not suggesting it is bunk, but asking about the *how* you know)

It was not just a matter of prayer but of the witness of Jesus Christ, and the witness of the early church, and that the New Testament is built on the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit leads, but His witness has been there all along.

Again *how* do *you* receive this receive this witness?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Well, that was my point, that it made no sense to assume that God would out of the blue contact someone at some arbitrary time. And because of that, any time that we got contacted by someone, it was just as likely that the being doing the contacting was an evil impostor as it was that the being was God. So it makes more sense to go on the faith that God will answer a question that one asks than that God will out of the blue tell one something.

Which brings Joseph Smith into question in a big way.

God did not arbitrarily contact others. There was


Phoebe Ann, why do you think that God "has told us that He does the converting"?


Appearances can be deceiving. I believe there's a purpose for every word that God has inspired. I just think one should be sure that God has inspired a book of scripture before one starts believing God has.

Is there some reason to believe someone who spends a lot of time talking about Satan can't understand God?


Saved him from what?

How, then, do you know that he that is making all those decisions is in fact God, and isn't an evil impostor trying to deceive you into believing that he is God?


Phoebe Ann, how do you know that any of these verses tell the truth about God?[/QUOTE]

Again, *how* do you know that this is not all bunk?
(I'm not suggesting it is bunk, but asking about the *how* you know)

Again *how* do *you* receive this receive this witness?

2000 years of witness since Jesus Christ and the witness of Jesus Christ, and of his church, and the reliability of scripture over the time since. The Codex's go back to the 4th century, the writings go back to the first century.

The Book of Mormon lack that.

 

[Jane_Doe]

2000 years of witness since Jesus Christ and the witness of Jesus Christ, and of his church, and the reliability of scripture over the time since.

The Hindu texts and witness are ~4000 years old and show remarkable perseverance of those over the time since.

*How* do *you* know one is Truth and one is bunk?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Changing the goal posts? The discussion was Book of Mormon vs. Bible and the witness of one over the other.

Hinduism is not about Christ and does not offer salvation. Does it precede God? No.

I see no reason to believe the Book of Mormon when it has been altered in its short history and plagarized the KJV. God did not hide His truth.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Changing the goal posts? The discussion was Book of Mormon vs. Bible and the witness of one over the other.

The discussion for the last week on this thread has been how *how* does a person know something (such as the Bible) is of God. The exact question I'm asking you right now.

Hinduism is not about Christ and does not offer salvation.

*How* do you know that?
*How* do you know Christ matters and reincarnation is not Truth?

 

[fatboys]

We know the Old Testament is scripture as it was used by Jesus Christ himself! That is a powerful witness. We know the New Testament is quoted in its entirety (though in sections of verses) by the early church fathers with the exception of 11 verses. We know that the writings that make up the NT were shared by the early church and became the basis for the creeds and doctrinal statements. We have the OT and the NT in original languages and is online here:

www.scripture4all.org

It was not just a matter of prayer but of the witness of Jesus Christ, and the witness of the early church, and that the New Testament is built on the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit leads, but His witness has been there all along.

In contrast, it seems the Book of Mormon, was in the ground and hidden for many centuries, it it existed at all. I see no reason to believe in it, and suspect that Joseph Smith wrote it himself as it plagarized the KJV Bible in many places.

What about the scriptures he used that we don't have where are they?

 

[FreeinChrist]

The discussion for the last week on this thread has been how *how* does a person know something (such as the Bible) is of God. The exact question I'm asking you right now.

*How* do you know that?
*How* do you know Christ matters and reincarnation is not Truth?

*How* do you know Christ matters and that the Book of Mormon is truth?

It does become a matter of faith for all of us. Like *How* do you know God exists.

My faith in Christ and in what His word says is based on a long witness, being personally drawn, experiencing that faith, and on a long witness that is based on Christ Himself.


The Book of Mormon does not have that. It is partly plagarized. And look at the three witnesses:

Book of Mormon witnesses - Wikipedia

The Three Witnesses were Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, whose joint testimony, in conjunction with a separate statement by Eight Witnesses, has been printed with nearly every edition of the Book of Mormon since its first publication in 1830. All three witnesses eventually broke with Smith and were excommunicated from the church.[1] In 1838, Joseph Smith called Cowdery, Harris, and Whitmer "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them."[2]


Unlike the Three Witnesses, the Eight testified that they both saw and handled the plates. Another difference is that the Eight testified they were shown the plates by Joseph Smith rather than by an angel as had the Three Witnesses. Christian Whitmer died in 1835 and his brother Peter Whitmer, Jr. died the following year. In 1838, the surviving Whitmers became estranged from Joseph Smith during a leadership struggle in Far West, Missouri, and all were excommunicated with other dissenters,[5] never to rejoin Smith's church.
​

They were all friends, family or backed Smith financially.

Then I find stuff like this:
Book of Mormon Witnesses all later DENIED its truthfulness!

1. Like Martin Harris, David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.(Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831)
2. David Whitmer changed his story about seeing the plates and later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the 'Director' and the Urim and Thumim. (Millennial Star, vol. XL, pp. 771-772)
3. During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into 'trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213)

(numbers are different)

 

[FreeinChrist]

What about the scriptures he used that we don't have where are they?

What are those?

Jesus Christ used the writings of Moses and the prophets - the OT.

The Dead Sea Scrolls support the OT and Isaiah and Daniel in particular.
Even John the Baptist quoted Isaiah - or Esaias as it is in the KJV:

Mat 3:3

For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

 

[Jane_Doe]

*How* do you know Christ matters and that the Book of Mormon is truth?

It does become a matter of faith for all of us. Like *How* do you know God exists.

My faith in Christ and in what His word says is based on a long witness, being personally drawn, experiencing that faith, and on a long witness that is based on Christ Himself.

Thanks for your answer.

My answer is quite similar: I know that Jesus is the Christ, my Lord and Savior, because I have received a witness of this Truthfulness through His Holy Spirit. I prayed for this witness, and God freely gave it to me, though I am a sinner and frequently stray. He testifies of His Truthfulness both from His written words (scripture) and through His words He places in my heart. I do NOT believe anything because of what a man said, or men in general. Rather, I go straight for the Holy Spirit for testimony of Truth.

I think we are quite similar in that regard. Do you?

 

[Jane_Doe]

What are those?

I think Fatboys is referring to the writings referenced in scripture which are not included in scripture themselves. Such as:
book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14);
book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18);
book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41);
book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29);
book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29);
book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29);
prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29);
visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22);
book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15);
book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34);
sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19);
an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9);
possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3);
an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16);
and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14).

 

[fatboys]

*How* do you know Christ matters and that the Book of Mormon is truth?

It does become a matter of faith for all of us. Like *How* do you know God exists.

My faith in Christ and in what His word says is based on a long witness, being personally drawn, experiencing that faith, and on a long witness that is based on Christ Himself.


The Book of Mormon does not have that. It is partly plagarized. And look at the three witnesses:

Book of Mormon witnesses - Wikipedia

The Three Witnesses were Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, whose joint testimony, in conjunction with a separate statement by Eight Witnesses, has been printed with nearly every edition of the Book of Mormon since its first publication in 1830. All three witnesses eventually broke with Smith and were excommunicated from the church.[1] In 1838, Joseph Smith called Cowdery, Harris, and Whitmer "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them."[2]


Unlike the Three Witnesses, the Eight testified that they both saw and handled the plates. Another difference is that the Eight testified they were shown the plates by Joseph Smith rather than by an angel as had the Three Witnesses. Christian Whitmer died in 1835 and his brother Peter Whitmer, Jr. died the following year. In 1838, the surviving Whitmers became estranged from Joseph Smith during a leadership struggle in Far West, Missouri, and all were excommunicated with other dissenters,[5] never to rejoin Smith's church.
​

They were all friends, family or backed Smith financially.

Then I find stuff like this:
Book of Mormon Witnesses all later DENIED its truthfulness!

1. Like Martin Harris, David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.(Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831)
2. David Whitmer changed his story about seeing the plates and later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the 'Director' and the Urim and Thumim. (Millennial Star, vol. XL, pp. 771-772)
3. During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into 'trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213)

(numbers are different)

Oh no

 

[FreeinChrist]

Thanks for your answer.

My answer is quite similar: I know that Jesus is the Christ, my Lord and Savior, because I have received a witness of this Truthfulness through His Holy Spirit. I prayed for this witness, and God freely gave it to me, though I am a sinner and frequently stray. He testifies of His Truthfulness both from His written words (scripture) and through His words He places in my heart. I do NOT believe anything because of what a man said, or men in general. Rather, I go straight for the Holy Spirit for testimony of Truth.

I think we are quite similar in that regard. Do you?

No, because the scripture you use is not His.