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FanthatSpark

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http://www.christianforums.com/threads/trusting.7910578/

What is righteous anger to a government lost in Matthew 6:24 that through trusting this ilk my own soul is in jeopardy for I pay a U.S. tax. to support the beast/money.
Creature comfort of Trust can be no more through ignorance of exactly what we support by proxy and call self Christian... LIE!
 

dysert

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http://www.christianforums.com/threads/trusting.7910578/

What is righteous anger to a government lost in Matthew 6:24 that through trusting this ilk my own soul is in jeopardy for I pay a U.S. tax. to support the beast/money.
Creature comfort of Trust can be no more through ignorance of exactly what we support by proxy and call self Christian... LIE!
If I understood what you said, I might have an intelligent post here. The best I can do is say that your soul is not in jeopardy just because you pay US taxes.
 
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dragongunner

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Jesus said go ahead and pay taxes….to Rome….and didn't Rome at the time enslave the Jews….? You are not responsible brother, sure we can elect, write congress and be against some of the things that our government does, but its those in govt. that make the final decision that are accountable, and we can hold them accountable. The disciples paid taxes to Rome, but will they then be judged for all the evil Rome did…….I think not.
 
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Xalith

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Jesus said go ahead and pay taxes….to Rome….and didn't Rome at the time enslave the Jews….? You are not responsible brother, sure we can elect, write congress and be against some of the things that our government does, but its those in govt. that make the final decision that are accountable, and we can hold them accountable. The disciples paid taxes to Rome, but will they then be judged for all the evil Rome did…….I think not.

^^
I would have to say that this is the correct response.

We are to follow the laws of the Government, as Government is God-Ordained, and because Governments are God-Ordained, we are to follow the laws they make as if they were God's, as long as they do not conflict against God's laws, and when this does happen, we might go to jail, we might even be executed, but God will protect us (as He did with Daniel several times, for example).

Paying taxes is the law. No, we don't like what they are using our tax dollars for (ISIS is the icing on the cake... how about cloning and stem cell research, CERN, etc? And then you got all the other useless junk they do with our money, the lavish parties, the chartered jets, the armani suits, etc), but yet it is the law that we pay the taxes, so... we pay the taxes.

If they do evil with the tax money, it isn't on us, because we did what the Bible told us to do -- follow the law unless it conflicts with God's law. Paying tax money is God-Ordained (as @dragongunner mentioned, Christ Himself told them to pay taxes to Caesar), so we are to do it without question.

That doesn't mean we have to like it, and there are legal loopholes out of some of it (tax deductible donations and such to good charities).
 
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dysert

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^^
I would have to say that this is the correct response.

We are to follow the laws of the Government, as Government is God-Ordained, and because Governments are God-Ordained, we are to follow the laws they make as if they were God's, as long as they do not conflict against God's laws, and when this does happen, we might go to jail, we might even be executed, but God will protect us (as He did with Daniel several times, for example).

Paying taxes is the law. No, we don't like what they are using our tax dollars for (ISIS is the icing on the cake... how about cloning and stem cell research, CERN, etc? And then you got all the other useless junk they do with our money, the lavish parties, the chartered jets, the armani suits, etc), but yet it is the law that we pay the taxes, so... we pay the taxes.

If they do evil with the tax money, it isn't on us, because we did what the Bible told us to do -- follow the law unless it conflicts with God's law. Paying tax money is God-Ordained (as @dragongunner mentioned, Christ Himself told them to pay taxes to Caesar), so we are to do it without question.

That doesn't mean we have to like it, and there are legal loopholes out of some of it (tax deductible donations and such to good charities).
I agree with everything except what I've bolded above. God does not guarantee to protect us. We saw that in Paul's life at the end. And we know in the Tribulation, people who resist the government in favor of God's laws will be beheaded. I don't see this as a nit pick. There are a lot of people who think that Christians will be ok so long as they follow God. Well, we'll be ok in terms of not losing our salvation, but we may not be ok in terms of keeping our heads.
 
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Xalith

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I agree with everything except what I've bolded above. God does not guarantee to protect us. We saw that in Paul's life at the end. And we know in the Tribulation, people who resist the government in favor of God's laws will be beheaded. I don't see this as a nit pick. There are a lot of people who think that Christians will be ok so long as they follow God. Well, we'll be ok in terms of not losing our salvation, but we may not be ok in terms of keeping our heads.

You don't agree that God will protect you?

I'm thinking you don't actually understand what you're really saying, and/or you don't understand what I'm saying.

Do you think "Protection" only applies to your mortal body?

Yes, Paul was eventually killed. But God protected him -- I've no doubts that Paul is sitting in Heaven (or the temporary paradise that Jesus spoke of, rather) at this very moment awaiting the events of Revelation 4+.

The Bible teaches us to fear the One who could destroy our soul. Yes, that robber with a gun can shoot you in the head, and you're not to provoke him into doing so (that would be a sin). But know that even if he did pull that trigger... God still protects you and even if you die... in the end, only God can decide what happens to your eternal soul.
 
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FanthatSpark

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Thou shalt not kill.... Thou shalt not "knowingly" pay another to kill in our name.
Because I know ,(and can stop it) this makes the sin of my Government my sin. I get it... Peace no matter what mind set. After praying & reading scriptures this one stands out Matthew 6:24.

That verse applied to Government = The massive issues we have today in what our government serves.

That verse applied to selves "The flock" Not a church, that pays no tax (Thus, soul is clean) but needs its flock to work so the organized building can stand, a preacher "must" preach Rome tax. In reality though this is just the attempt to keep the status-quo.

See the problem? One can not in on one hand send missionaries to the Christians killed and in the other pay somebody to kill more. That is "self destruction under complacency" to continue to serve the dollar not GOD. Holding the tax hostage as a Christian Nation would set this war strait.

Did you know:

  • April 6, 2009. just in time for Easter, President Obama spoke at a press conference in Turkey, a Muslim country, and said of America, "We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation."
Is that truth or lie? Christian nation serves the people, not the dollar... Yet , looking at that statement not in what we serve (Which makes it true) but in numbers we are LEGION in America (which makes it lie) but must see we make Obama's lie a truth when we apply Matthew 6:24 to that statement. Truth hurts but more importantly, continued complacency in the face of that truth means we do not serve truth. So, this soul will not feed the beast any more ... In a tax out of fear for flesh for my soul will be clear that lives forever.
 
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Xalith

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Thou shalt not kill.... Thou shalt not "knowingly" pay another to kill in our name.

We're not paying the government to kill. We are paying taxes because the law demands it. If we stop paying taxes, then we're guilty of breaking the law, and thus are guilty of the sin of failing to submit to governments. If the government uses some of our money to kill, there's nothing we can do about it without refusing to pay the government or doing our best to elect people who don't do that.

And besides, when Christ told the people to pay taxes to Rome, He knew full well what the Romans were going to do with that money not even 40 years later. Most of the Jews died when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Where do you think Rome got the money to pay all of the troops to do this?

Christ knew this was going to happen (He predicted it, afterall!). Yet, He still instructed the people to pay their legal taxes and fulfill their legal obligations as citizens.

Because I know ,(and can stop it) this makes the sin of my Government my sin. I get it... Peace no matter what mind set. After praying & reading scriptures this one stands out Matthew 6:24.

That verse applied to Government = The massive issues we have today in what our government serves.

That verse was never meant to apply to Government. Government does not have a soul, individual people do. Government is made out of a large collection of people, and the way our democracy is designed, is that no one person has complete power over the government. Trust me, those who do evil in our government today will be held accountable for such evil. They know what they're doing, and they do it anyway.

That verse applied to selves "The flock" Not a church, that pays no tax (Thus, soul is clean) but needs its flock to work so the organized building can stand, a preacher "must" preach Rome tax. In reality though this is just the attempt to keep the status-quo.

While it is true that dangers are on the horizon of the government making it difficult for preachers to preach what they should be preaching, I don't really believe that the churches preach "Rome Tax" for the entire purpose of "staying alive". They preach it, because Christ said it. Do we need another reason to preach the paying of taxes? If Christ Himself said to do it, then we're supposed to do it. End of story.

See the problem? One can not in on one hand send missionaries to the Christians killed and in the other pay somebody to kill more. That is "self destruction under complacency" to continue to serve the dollar not GOD. Holding the tax hostage as a Christian Nation would set this war strait.

We aren't paying the US Government to fund ISIS... we're paying the US Government our tax dollars in the hopes that they'd use it for infrastructure, education, national security, etc. Once the money leaves our hands, there's nothing more we can do other than complain and attempt to vote other people in.

We aren't willingly donating to the cause of killing Christians; that's preposterous. We're paying our government our tax dollars, asking them to use this money responsibly. They don't, and we don't want to pay them... but we must, because if we don't, we break the law and we commit sin.

Did you know:

  • April 6, 2009. just in time for Easter, President Obama spoke at a press conference in Turkey, a Muslim country, and said of America, "We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation."
Is that truth or lie?

That is truth in what Obama thinks. Remember, he's just one man who thinks he's the King of the USA. And it is true that Atheism is on the rise, ridiculously so I might add, but again... one man has no right to say what religion a nation follows, especially not when he is part of a democracy.

Christian nation serves the people, not the dollar... Yet , looking at that statement not in what we serve (Which makes it true) but in numbers we are LEGION in America (which makes it lie) but must see we make Obama's lie a truth when we apply Matthew 6:24 to that statement. Truth hurts but more importantly, continued complacency in the face of that truth means we do not serve truth. So, this soul will not feed the beast any more ... In a tax out of fear for flesh for my soul will be clear that lives forever.

So... what, you're going to stop paying taxes? Even though Christ Himself told you to do it? What do you suppose would happen if everybody followed your example? Yes, we'd stop funding ISIS, but then everything else would break down too, and we'd simply just have anarchy and crime would skyrocket, roads would fall apart, teachers would walk off their jobs, schools would shut down, we'd run out of funding for our military, etc.

Is that somehow better?
 
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Xalith

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And one more thing I'd like to add...

Please don't ever for one second think these Christians died in vain. God does not allow a Christian to be killed without making some good out of the situation. Nothing on this Earth happens without God allowing it.

Whenever a Christian refuses to deny Christ in front of the Muslims when they are executed, this tugs on their heartstrings deep down inside. Even the most hardened executioners would surely question their allegiance when they see Christian after Christian confessing Christ all the way to the grave.

I wonder how many Muslims get saved because they see enough of this, they see enough Christians who refuse to deny Christ, who willingly go to their deaths?

God doesn't let a Christian's death go to waste. He uses it to soften peoples' hearts and bring souls into Heaven. I've read a number of Muslim Terrorist conversion stories, and also little children who convert despite being raised in a Muslim atmosphere from their birth and on.

We are to just do what Christ instructs us to do, and let Him worry about how things work behind the scenes. Defying His will is never the right thing to do, and it isn't our will, but His that shall be done. Attempting to suss things out using our logic is never the right way; we're to submit to His superior ways. He told us to pay taxes and to submit to government, and that's exactly what I plan on doing. I don't agree with the government's antics any more than you do, but Christ asked me a question...

"Do you trust Me?"

I answer: "Yes, my Lord. I trust You."

Therefore, I do what He says to do.
 
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FanthatSpark

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Question: "What does the Bible say about government?"

Answer:
The Bible speaks very clearly about the relationship between the believer and the government. We are to obey governmental authorities, and the government is to treat us justly and fairly. Even when the government does not live up to its role, we are still to live up to ours. Finally, when the government asks us to do something that is in direct disobedience to God’s Word, we are to disobey the government in faithful confidence of the Lord’s power to protect us. Thou shalt not kill.
 
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Xalith

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Question: "What does the Bible say about government?"

Answer:
The Bible speaks very clearly about the relationship between the believer and the government. We are to obey governmental authorities, and the government is to treat us justly and fairly. Even when the government does not live up to its role, we are still to live up to ours. Finally, when the government asks us to do something that is in direct disobedience to God’s Word, we are to disobey the government in faithful confidence of the Lord’s power to protect us. Thou shalt not kill.

The government tells us to pay taxes. These taxes are used for a varying number of things -- fixing roads, funding schools, funding the military, paying government workers' salaries, etc. It isn't like the government uses 100% of the tax dollars for funding ISIS.

We are not directly or even indirectly killing anybody. When ISIS murders a Christian, the chain goes like this:

1). The person who did the killing.
2). The person in charge of that person.
3). The person ruling over the group as a whole.
4). The group got their money from somewhere.
5). Our Government provided them with some of the money and resources.
6). We provided the Government.

If any one of those people starting from #1 had said "No", the killing wouldn't have happened. When you fight a problem like this, you don't start at the bottom, you start at the top and go down.

If we applied this logic to everything, then we could easily say that everybody working in car factories should quit their jobs because drunks use cars to kill people on the road = Thou Shalt Not Kill.
 
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FanthatSpark

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I am sorry my friend. You know me in Spirit in past writings and you like me operate in humbleness and joy. However, what is taking my joy Xalith? Not mans law but violation of Gods law and how does this mind & soul regain joy? How can "I" operate in good conscious? This holding my tax hostage is given to a man seeking his good conscious back so a true smile can return to my face. Let me explain...

Your post is much appreciated to look at this issue in another's eyes, pray on it, appreciate the volume of labor spent by my friend Xalith to change my train of thought but some fundamental things are missing. Gods law vs Mankind's law and knowledge "I" violate in Trust. Your view is just
but missing from that view is that logic and conscious are intertwined to effect... Good consciousness. Yes, even the jumping in the car effects good consciousness if one knows they contribute to something bad thus there goes the true smile radiating from ? Within. I have prayed on this issue and what releases my conscious is holding my tax hostage. Yes my friend people will suffer on this side of the ocean but not die in mass droves for we are Kings/Queens too in our recliner thrones paying for death across a sea. Now my friend, one has to choose between two evils as a Christian. Bring the suffering home in holding hostage the tax for a time or kill our children in certain wrath of war/God on this soil through your version of inaction my friend? Watch true chaos then Xalith for one would not suffer a little uncomfortableness on this side of the sea for a time in just cause.

Holding tax hostage does cause a major ripple effect for government pension too that hits this government in the pocket (A precedent from state to federal)and will drive them back to the negotiating table to remove the dollar out of the electoral process . Which in turn ends class war when the government has been rightly turned back to the people/God for the people/God not the dollar as of today. for me, Xalith , my only choice to good consciousness is hold my tax hostage for I fear not the flesh (the chaos coming) but my God the destroyer of souls. For me, my smile and joy have returned. For the dollar server, I bring guilt of conscious with a big ole hug and smile for this one has given this nation its out weather one listens is fear of flesh in a little chaos or a bomb hits our kitchen table and the very same chaos ensues in inaction.
 
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Xalith

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Hmmm.

Well, if you have prayed on it, and that's what you got, then I won't argue with you. I am glad you read my words and considered them, for that is all I'd ask that you'd do.

I suppose that I myself need not worry -- I don't make enough money for me to worry about paying taxes, I'm right near that line where I just barely get EIC, but yet owe $0 in taxes.

I suppose when I think about it, it might be easy for me to sit here and explain the Law, but perhaps there is a time when God might tell one to do otherwise.

If you're confident that this is what God wants you to do, then I will pray that it truly is what He wants you to do.

His Will Be Done, not ours.
 
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FanthatSpark

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The Bible teaches us to fear the One who could destroy our soul. Yes, that robber with a gun can shoot you in the head, and you're not to provoke him into doing so (that would be a sin). But know that even if he did pull that trigger... God still protects you and even if you die... in the end, only God can decide what happens to your eternal soul.

Thus , paying tax provokes my Government to fund a Christian beheading machine.
 
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FanthatSpark

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As we see in various pin prick media events government delves into our religion now in matters of same sex marriage, abortion etc. Thus the imaginary line between church and state is being crossed by state to arrest a Christian for not passing out licenses or allowing services in their holy ground.
This is divide and systematically drive wedges of hate through state means.

Disclaimer:Be advised: Statements stated above do not reflect the views or opinions of the author ^_^ So, I think I will not support my own destruction and call self Christian. For I provoke state by funding state.
 
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