johnjanuary1984
Active Member
Are you saying God the Father never required Jesus to suffer ?? How do you interpret Isaiah 53:5 then ???
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Keep in mind that when Christ gave up the ghost He said—"it is finished."
Eternal Redemption was accomplished by His death, not His suffering:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The point of remission of sins through vicarious death (as seen under Old Testament conditions) never required suffering. It was a matter of death being the wages of sin and the animal dying in the place of the sinner instead.
While men received remission of sins through vicarious animal death it was temporary and would have to be continually repeated.
But when Christ has died in our stead it is everlasting:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
That eternal judgment is everlasting is seen in the fact that it is contrasted with Eternal Life: if eternal judgment isn't everlasting then those who embrace annihilation have to equally reject eternal life to be consistent.
God bless.
I think Isaiah 53 answer's that question. But anyways......
When people say, "how could a loving God send people to Hell?" , I can use their own reasoning against them by asking how could a loving God allow his one and only son to be tortured? A loving God would have given his one and only son a quick painless death. Right ?
The fact that Jesus had to endure torture proves that Hell exists.
I kept seeing that statement, and got curious - so curious that one day I tallied up the number of times Jesus spoke about "hell," and the number of time He spoke of "heaven." My finding was that He spoke of "heaven" about 6.5 times more often than He did of "hell," even if I admit that "hell" exists, which I don't.
It's time to put that little bon mot to bed.
You do not believe in hell. You cannot pick and choose what parts of the bible you will believe and which ones you will deny.
Are you saying God the Father never required Jesus to suffer ?? How do you interpret Isaiah 53:5 then ???
Mmmm...Okay, but I can use a few tools (dictionary, concordance, commentary, God-given common sense, etc) to recognize bad and dishonest translation. I can also choose a Bible version without pagan-derived, man-made doctrines such as "hell."
You cannot find the truth without the Holy Spirit. Intellect alone will never be sufficient.Mmmm...Okay, but I can use a few tools (dictionary, concordance, commentary, God-given common sense, etc) to recognize bad and dishonest translation. I can also choose a Bible version without pagan-derived, man-made doctrines such as "hell."
I interpret it as a description of what the Christ went through.
I interpret it as a passage that confirms that Christ suffering at the hands of wicked men was the Lord's choice, not man's. He had the power to lay down His life, and the power to take it back up again.
I don't interpret it as "God requiring Christ to suffer."
I understand interpreting "with His stripes we are healed" as meaning we receive healing because He was beaten—but I don't agree with that interpretation. Everything that is to our advantage converges on our Eternal Redemption, and Eternal Redemption was accomplished, not by His suffering, but by His vicarious death in our stead.
Consider that the Incarnation itself was a means of suffering for The Son of God. It is, I think, difficult to think about Holy God being in the form of man as something that caused grief for God, but I believe it was. The flesh He took upon Himself was a veil he willingly took up, but that was something I view as one of the most difficult aspects of the Incarnation.
I do not deny that His suffering at the hands of wicked men is an important aspect of the Incarnation, but I feel in large part much of this was for the purpose of confirming Prophecy. His beating and scourging are not the source of Eternal Redemption, but His death and Resurrection.
God bless.
I examined every book, chapter and verse of a very ordinary King James Bible to see if "hell" exists. I could find nothing I considered proof...but I did find bad and/or dishonest translation to prop up that man-made doctrine. I don't suppose that would sway you, but you expect me to throw in the towel because Jesus was tortured? Tell me, how much torture would it take for "hell" to pop into existence? A slap in the face? A good whipping? No, a loving God DID allowed His Son to be tortured - in fact, the Scripture you referenced says as much.
Rubbish! What it boils down to is you choose to use only "sources" which support your biased assumptions/presuppositions.Mmmm...Okay, but I can use a few tools (dictionary, concordance, commentary, God-given common sense, etc) to recognize bad and dishonest translation. I can also choose a Bible version without pagan-derived, man-made doctrines such as "hell."
Let us look a bit further in that chapter. I have posted this numerous times before it has never been addressed and certainly not refuted."Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matt 25:41
That verse makes no sense if Hell doesn't exist.
You don't have to believe in Hell. Jesus warns us that many people won't believe in Hell. They won't believe in Hell even if someone rises from the dead.
Luke 16:31
In Mark 8:31 Jesus said the son of man MUST suffer.
“Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.” Luke 22:42
God the Father denied Jesus request. Why? Because the son of man MUST suffer.
"but it was because of our rebellion that he was pierced.
He was crushed for the guilt our sins deserved.
The punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed." Isaiah 53:5
I'm shocked to hear you say Isaiah 53:5 doesn't mean what it says.
I'm shocked to hear you speak for me, lol.
Show where I said it doesn't mean what it says. Did you even read the post?
If you want to believe Jesus' suffering is the means of eternal redemption then okay.
Me, I'll stick with the consistent teaching that Eternal Redemption was accomplished by His death and Resurrection:
Colossians 1:14
King James Version
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
God bless.
I'm shocked to hear you speak for me, lol.
Show where I said it doesn't mean what it says. Did you even read the post?
If you want to believe Jesus' suffering is the means of eternal redemption then okay.
Me, I'll stick with the consistent teaching that Eternal Redemption was accomplished by His death and Resurrection:
Colossians 1:14
King James Version
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
God bless.
To me it seemed you disagreed with the Bible when it says, "by his wounds we are healed".
Yes by his blood. His wounds produced alot of blood.
But whatever. Have a good day
Come again, the father of lies? I would be willing to bet the father of lies tells people Christ was defeated and can’t save the world. Which is contrary to scripture.Luke 16:19-31 is crystal clear in what it says. People who deny Luke 16 keep saying that it doesn't mean what it says.
That comes from the father of lies. Satan doesn't want people to believe in hell. He wants people to believe that their is no punishment, so you might as well do whatever your sinful nature desires.
Rejecting Jesus sacrifice is a very serious thing.
God suffered hell for you. He didn't have to suffer eternally because he was innocent.
Jesus wouldn't have needed to suffer if there were no Hell. He could have just died a quick painless death. That fact that Jesus HAD to suffer proves Hell exists .
Come again, the father of lies? I would be willing to bet the father of lies tells people Christ was defeated and can’t save the world. Which is contrary to scripture.
He forgave us all our trespasses,14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Colossians 2:14-16.
Satan and the fallen angels have no authority over any human. The debt was paid in full by the blood of the lamb who takes away the sins of the world.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28
God has no favorites. He is unwilling any perish, and is willing to be patient with all people to come to the knowledge of truth. Death does not end God’s ability to rescue those who never heard the gospel or who were too ignorant to come into a relationship with their Heavenly Father.
Colossians 3:25, 2 Pt3:9, 1Pt 4:6,1 Tim 2:4.
Our will or ignorance is not an obstacle to the creator who also is the Savior. Who can boast? Not one can boast. He loved us first, not the other way around. He is the great physician who came specifically for the unrighteous. He heals the blind, deaf, raises the dead, and cures sinful people. The entire universe will be reconciled to their creator. The ending is a happy one. All people, great and small will know the lord. All people will worship Him willingly.
Eph 2:9, 1 John 4:19, Matt 19:12, Ps 22:27
Would you mind presenting the list of verses you included in your study? I ask because I am wondering if you used only verses that have "hell" in them, or if you included verses that speak of eternal judgment without mentioning either Hades or Gehenna.
As to whether the concept of what is translated as "Hell" is a valid Biblical Doctrine, that is just an undeniable truth. Hades is not what most people think of when they think of "Hell," it is the Old Testament equivalent to Sheol, the place of the dead. It will not be until the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom that we see anyone cast into what is properly "hell," the Lake of Fire, which is the place of eternal judgment:
Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is the "hell" that is often caricaturized by hollywood and confused with Hades by some (v.13 and 14).
Here is another description of the place of eternal judgment by the Lord:
Mark 9:43-48
King James Version
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
His teaching makes it pretty clear: being cast into Hell (Gehenna) has an everlasting duration. This type of terminology is seen in numerous teachings of Christ. We see a picture of enduring flames and corruption of the body (undying worms).
Here is another one:
Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
I use the colors to show the correlation between the Baptism with the Holy Ghost which represents eternal life and the baptism with fire which represents eternal judgment. Again, the fire is never quenched.
Another example:
Jude 11-13
King James Version
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
For ever is pretty clear.
One more:
Matthew 13:39-41
King James Version
DID
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
This one has, in my view, an application to both the end of the Tribulation (and the start of the Millennial Kingdom) as well as the end of this current Universe (and the beginning of the Eternal State where we will dwell in the new heavens and Earth). But it still speaks of eternal judgment.
The demons asked Jesus if He had come to torment them before "the time:"
Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
This doesn't present the picture of them being snuffed out, but one of ongoing torture. (Gehenna) Hell was created for Satan and his demons:
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
And when Satan is cast in we see he—
Revelation 20:10
King James Version
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
For ever and ever torment doesn't exactly agree with the notion of annihilation.
God bless.
John 3:18 and Mark 16:16 refer to judgement. All people will be judged. No argument. Matthew 7:14 refers to life here and now. Who are the few? The few who find salvation? If this is your position Satan has victory. I suggest you refer to the victory of Christ, and His defeat of the evil one."Whoever does not believe will be condemned".
John 3:18 and Mark 16:16 both say that.
"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:14
John 3:18 and Mark 16:16 refer to judgement. All people will be judged. No argument. Matthew 7:14 refers to life here and now. Who are the few? The few who find salvation? If this is your position Satan has victory. I suggest you refer to the victory of Christ, and His defeat of the evil one.
John 3:18 and Mark 16:16 refer to judgement. All people will be judged. No argument. Matthew 7:14 refers to life here and now. Who are the few? The few who find salvation? If this is your position Satan has victory. I suggest you refer to the victory of Christ, and His defeat of the evil one.
I would like to see how you make these two vss. say the opposite of what they do say.John 3:18 and Mark 16:16 refer to judgement. All people will be judged. No argument. Matthew 7:14 refers to life here and now. Who are the few? The few who find salvation? If this is your position Satan has victory. I suggest you refer to the victory of Christ, and His defeat of the evil one.
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