Re-Thinking Hell

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
ME: Where in Scripture does it say that the damned will receive bodies suited to eternal torment?

YOU: It’s a basic doctrine that most students of Scripture understand.
Well, sure, I can see that it is, yes. But back to my question, please.

Are you looking for a single verse?

Why didn't you respond to the point concerning the resurrection of the dead?

Continued...

FineLinen · Sep 6, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
That's what I though: you don't go anywhere to fellowship with Christians, do you?

You silly lion have thought wrong again.

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
Unless, of course, you mean to say that things which are not expressly set down in Scripture may nevertheless by good and necessary consequence be deduced from Scripture—a principle found in the Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 1.6), for example—such as the doctrine of the Trinity (Rhodes 2021).

Do you always ask questions you want to answer yourself?

How about answering my own questions?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

FineLinen said:
You silly lion have thought wrong again.

So you say.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
So, you claimed that the damned will receive everlasting bodies suited to eternal torment (EBSET). Where in Scripture does it say this?

It says it right there in Revelation 20:5 and Revelation 20:11-15.

They are made alive again physically.

And based on the rest of Scripture we can see that in order for the fire not to be quenched, the worm not to die, and for there to be wailing and gnashing of teeth—there must be more than just a burning up of those newly raised physical bodies.

The Goats are cast into the same everlasting fire that Satan and his demons are:

Matthew 25:41
King James Version

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Demons understand they are in for torment:

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

So we end up back in Revelation 20:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented G928 day and night for ever and ever.

Question: do you think that Satan and his demons will, as Scripture states here, be tormented day and night forever?

Second question: on what basis would you deny that the Beast and the False Prophet—who were cast into the Lake of Fire one thousand years before this—are also tormented day and night forever?

Third question: on what basis would you deny that the goats and the rest of the dead that are raised again to physical life before being cast into the Lake of Fire are also tormented day and night forever and ever?

Fourth question: does not everlasting torment described in Scripture correlate to fire not being quenched, the worm not dying, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth that are described by Christ?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
So, you claimed that the damned will receive everlasting bodies suited to eternal torment (EBSET). Where in Scripture does it say this?

You first point to Revelation 20:11-15 where it says the damned are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. Nothing there about the damned receiving EBSET.

Well, the point made in the first response to you began a discussion concerning life and death in Scripture.

You may not find it in the Belgic Confession of faith but it is simply a Bible Principle that life and death have two categories we must understand: the temporal (physical) and the eternal (spiritual).

All men are conceived in death, because all men are separated from God, hence they do not have the Life Christ came to bestow on those that would believe.

And because of shoddy interpretive methods many embrace false doctrines based on an understanding that death means a cessation of life, and that this means a cessation of existence.

But if we understand that there is a difference between someone having Eternal Life and someone simply having life (as all men do before physical death) then we begin to see a greater teaching concerning Eternal Life and how that impacts our understanding of Eternal Judgment.

As a beginning to this aspect of trying to help you understand Eternal Judgment, we again go to the teaching of Christ:

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

When Jesus said...

John 6:49
Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

...He wasn't letting the people know that they were physically dead, but that they were without the life men receive through believing in Christ.

Now we apply that to The Dead of Revelation 20, who are physically raised to life again to be cast into the Lake of Fire where there will be torment day and night forever and ever: they do not have the life of Christ.

They are dead.

Only the Bread of Heaven can give Eternal Life, and this through belief in Him. Only those that believe in Christ are brought into union with Christ and only they are alive.

It is Basic Bible Principle that not everyone is going to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is very clear in Matthew 25.

but we'll discuss that more. I am trying to make these posts as short as possible to make it easier for you to respond.

Question: does Scripture teach that there are those who are dead and those who are alive and that this death and life extends beyond physical life and death?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
But, before they are cast into the lake of fire, they are first resurrected from the dead. Revelation 20:4-6 explains that, you said, a passage which tells us that they were resurrected after the thousand years were finished.

And the question is why?

Do not the Beast and the False Prophet get cast into the Lake of Fire alive?

And they are there a thousand years later without being annihilated?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented G928 day and night for ever and ever.

Is this not the same place that all of the dead of mankind will end up in?

If the Beast and False Prophet "died" after being cast into the Lake of Fire alive—why are they still there?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
Once again, nothing about the damned receiving EBSET. They are resurrected, judged, and tossed into the lake of fire. Nothing has been said about their bodies yet, in either of these texts.

It is said in those verses: they are raised from the dead and cast into the place of judgment where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If you want to "think" that "Only the Devil is tormented day and night forever and ever" okay.

But that is drawing a conclusion apart from what we are taught elsewhere.

For a specific text about the body we can go to the Lord's teaching here:

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

See the link, it'll take about five seconds.

The Lord doesn't say "Fear Him which is able to kill both soul and body in Hell," but "Fear Him which is able to cast into Hell (Luke 12:5) and destroy both soul (person) and body in Hell."

Here is another example of a "destroyed people:"

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost G622 sheep of the house of Israel.

They are in a "state of destruction" because they are separated from God.

Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost:

Mat 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. G622

So the destruction of both soul and body in Hell is not a cessation of the state men are born into, it is a continuation of the separation from God we are born into.

That is why we can call it, based on the Authority of Scripture—Eternal Separation:

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The destruction of Hell is taught as being everlasting, and is defined in terms of shame and contempt, torment, gnashing of teeth, unquenchable fire, and a continuing state of death where the corruption is endless, for their worm dieth not.

We just don't see a cessation of existence and are told both explicitly and implicitly that there is no cessation of the anguish of the damned.

God does not "kill" the dead when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, He destroys them, and that destruction is the same destruction we are born into: separation from God.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
Then you point to Luke 15:24 and Romans 14:9,

And you completely ignore why I did that, and then post this in your response misrepresenting what I said.

Tsk, tsk.

Not sure what "edition" it is you speak of that will apparently satisfy your demands, but as far as Scriptural proof goes, we can start here...

Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Most familiar with Revelation 20 understand that the "dead" are resurrected before they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

What does that mean?

Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Would you like to argue that they, the dead, do not live again when the thousand years are over? See the link.

The word anazaō is also used here...

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; G326 he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, G326 that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

That their physical bodies are given life doesn't equate to the "dead" having life, being immortal, or having eternal life.

They will exist in Everlasting Punishment in these bodies, and that existence is everlasting as Christ and the Apostles teach, but we do not impose an "immortal" description to those who are dead.

I have emboldened the points that were made.

Perhaps you might actually try responding to those points rather than misrepresenting what I said by omission?

Was the Prodigal Son dead and gone because he was lost?

Do we not see that the dead are raised again to life in Revelation 20?

Do you "think" there is a relevance to what I said in regards to my use of these passages now?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
Then you point to Luke 15:24 and Romans 14:9, but neither of these show that the damned receive EBSET.

They show that the dead are raised again to physical life in Revelation 20, that is all they were supposed to show.

The point being that those who are cast into the Lake of Fire are alive physically when they go into everlasting Punishment.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
Are you under the impression that I asked you to prove that the damned are resurrected? That is not what I asked you.

Reread the post, maybe this time you will see why these passages were posted.

Your demands are a bit unreasonable. You want someone to show you everlasting bodies yet you refuse to address the points made in order to do so, then act as if you have shown being resurrected to be cast into the Lake of Fire doesn't show their bodies are everlasting.

Ignored Point: the dead are resurrected back to physical life.

Ignored Point 2: raised to life means just that, resurrected to physical life.

Ignored Point 3: being "made alive" does not mean that they have Eternal Life.

Ignored Point 4: the dead are dead in more than just a physical death.

Ignored Point 5: being dead does not mean a cessation of existence.

Ignored Point 6: the dead are given physical bodies for the everlasting punishment they are cast into.

Ignored Implied Conclusion: the bodies the dead are raised in are suitable to everlasting punishment, hence their bodies are everlasting to undergo that everlasting punishment.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
That was all the biblical texts you had cited.

And as I said...

P1LGR1M said:
Not sure what "edition" it is you speak of that will apparently satisfy your demands, but as far as Scriptural proof goes, we can start here...

Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So you don't miss it, let me make it abundantly clear:

P1LGR1M said:
Not sure what "edition" it is you speak of that will apparently satisfy your demands, but as far as Scriptural proof goes, we can start here...

So I don't appreciate the temper tantrum.

If you want to discuss it, great. But don't ignore what I say and then throw a temper tantrum. Address the points that go along with the Scriptures presented to you and we can have a discussion.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
So, as I'm sure most people can see, you did not answer my question. I will ask it again for the sake of clarity:

Where in Scripture does it say that the damned will receive everlasting bodies suited to eternal torment?

I get the impression that it's more important what people "see" than the actual topic of discussion itself.

What d'ya "think?"

As far as what people "see," it's pretty obvious that there are those here who can only "see" that which accommodates their belief system.

In these threads the proof texts that are used by those who embrace universal salvation have been addressed and shown to be out of the context they are presented in Scripture in.

But some refuse to "see" that.

You have refused to "see" the points made with the beginning discussion of the topic and misrepresented that which I did say.

Will you admit this? I doubt it.

Is it true? Of course, I have just shown how you left out the very statements I made which showed why what I said was relevant to the discussion, and then appeal to the Public as "seeing" I didn't show why the damned have everlasting bodies.

A little premature, I would say.

At least, that is how I "see" it.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
P1LGR1M said:

I am pretty much done with this forum for now, but you are welcome to look at what I have posted, and if you have problems with what I have said, perhaps it might encourage me to spend a little more time here.

Click to expand...

I mean, you haven't even come close to providing what I asked of you.

lol

Alrighty then.

Does this mean you are done?

That's pretty good, four passages and already another skeptic silenced.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
But, by all means, feel free to take your leave.

Well, I was going to, but you have convinced me that there is still more work to be done here.

I do limit my visits to forums because it is painfully obvious that there is a danger for some of getting stuck in a rut and limiting themselves to forums where their doctrine is accepted.

Me, I'd rather have people challenge my beliefs and positions. How else can I learn and be confident of my doctrine if everyone agrees with me?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
You're under no obligation to provide biblical support for your beliefs (despite claiming that's all you rely on to support your views).

That is all I rely on.

I would count my use of Strong's Online Concordance to be a part of that also, because it is just Scripture that is presented there.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
I was simply hoping you had it, since I wasn't able to find any in the Belgic Confession of Faith which makes a similar claim.

I doubt that very much. If you were "hoping I had it," you would have addressed the response instead of throwing a temper tantrum.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
One day I hope to encounter a Bible-believing Christian who believes this and does have a biblical case for it.

That's a curious way to put that: is there someone else that might have a Biblical Case for The Doctrine of Hell than a Bible-Believing Christian?

Do you consider yourself a Bible-Believing Christian?

Do you even acknowledge a reality to the principle you have found in the Belgic Confession of Faith, that implicit instruction in Scripture is a valid means of laying a foundation for a Bible Doctrine, such as the Trinity?

Are you a Bible-Believing Christian?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
Until then, see you around.

We shall see.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

DialecticSkeptic said:
P1LGR1M said:

You would probably be more interested in my view that Regeneration began at Pentecost,

Click to expand...

Not even a little.

Maybe not.

The teaching that men have always been born again in order for them to have faith is an erroneous and misleading teaching.

If you have embraced that teaching you certainly would not enjoy discussing it with me.

Continued...

Re-Thinking Hell

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