Re-Thinking Hell

wendykvw said:

Fire in the bible:

• Symbol of divine presence (Burning Bush)
• Divine guidance (Piller of Fire)
• Divine purification (Refiners Fire)
• Divine Judgment (Lake of Fire)
• Divine Punishment *Hell *Lake of Fire

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Where is the lake of fire ever called "hell?" Where is refiner's fire ever used for anyone but the nation of Israel?

Receivedgrace said:

The soul returns to God Who made it. Some inherit eternal life and some eternal destruction.

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Search "eternal destruction".

Your search query has yielded no results in the KJV.

NONE

wendykvw said:

Throughout the Bible. The teaching in the Gospels. The lake of fire is a metaphor for divine judgement and punishment; the fire prepared for the devil.

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Assumptions not stated in scripture. No where in the entire N.T. is the lake of fire called hell. In fact one vs. in Rev. says hell was cast into the LOF.

wendykvw said:

How do you see the lake of fire as being different than hell?

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Please do not refuse to respond to my post then ask me questions.

wendykvw said:

Per your understanding of scripture. Peter has a far better understanding as an apostle, and he described the unwillingness of God to allow anyone to perish. Peter also describes rescue from the depths of hell.

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Curious you seem to have omitted the scriptural support for your assertions.

wendykvw said:

Non-essentials:

1. Eschatology ( views of hell, end of times views)

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The failure of men in Eschatological matters in Christ's day will be as important the second time He comes as well.

There is a reason for Prophecy:


Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Eschatology is not a "non-essential."


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

Eschatology is not a "non-essential."

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She specified views of hell and the end times, no?

If these are key beliefs why aren't they mentioned in the Nicene Creed?

wendykvw said:

How do you see the lake of fire as being different than hell?

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I already gave my view of that. The LOF is never called hell and hell is spoken of as distinct from the LOF. In one vs. "hell" is even thrown into the LOF.

Hmm said:

She specified views of hell and the end times, no?

If these are key beliefs why aren't they mentioned in the Nicene Creed?

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No, actually she didn't:

wendykvw said:

Essentials of Christianity.

1. Repentance and turning to Christ, through faith.
2. Love for God, and all people, love your neighbor as yourself.
3. Belief in the death and Resurrection of Christ

Non-essentials:

1. Eschatology ( views of hell, end of times views)
2. Baptism Practice ( Sprinkle, Immersion, Infant Baptism etc.)
3. Bible Translations Preferences, Worship Style, Denominational Memberships. Etc.

Not an exhausted list, but just a few.

"In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, charity.”
- Rupertus Meldenius

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Would you mind showing me where she did that? I am missing it.

Hmm said:

She specified views of hell and the end times, no?

If these are key beliefs why aren't they mentioned in the Nicene Creed?

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They aren't?

He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead

Hmm, seems like Eschatology to me...


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

Would you mind showing me where she did that? I am missing it.

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wendykvw said:

Non-essentials:

1. Eschatology ( views of hell, end of times views)

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Hope that helps.

P1LGR1M said:

Where in my posts did I say "The Belgic Confession of Faith says..." anything?

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Nowhere—which you ought to know already, I would think.

You said that the damned “will receive bodies suited to eternal torment.” I have encountered this kind of controversial claim in only one other place, namely, the Belgic Confession of Faith. Since there are no scriptural proofs in the Confession supporting this particular claim, I was hoping that you might possess what the Confession did not provide …

… which is what I said:


But it seems that you likewise don't have any scriptural proofs, just as they did not. That doesn’t surprise me, though. If there were any, I'm pretty sure the Confession would have provided it.

P1LGR1M said:

I don't rely on the works of men to support my own views, only Scripture.

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Great, for that's precisely what I asked for: "Where in Scripture does it say this?" I want to know where Scripture says that the damned will receive bodies suited to eternal torment.

P1LGR1M said:

Saying that the lost will have bodies suited to everlasting punishment is simply a basic Bible principle that most who study Scripture outside of the lens of a particular system of theology understand.

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If by “principle” you mean an article of faith or a fundamental doctrine or tenet (Dictionary.com, s.v. “Principle”), then you haven't answered my question.


Well, sure, I can see that it is, yes. But back to my question, please.

Unless, of course, you mean to say that things which are not expressly set down in Scripture may nevertheless by good and necessary consequence be deduced from Scripture—a principle found in the Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 1.6), for example—such as the doctrine of the Trinity (Rhodes 2021).

So, you claimed that the damned will receive everlasting bodies suited to eternal torment (EBSET). Where in Scripture does it say this?

You first point to Revelation 20:11-15 where it says the damned are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. Nothing there about the damned receiving EBSET.

But, before they are cast into the lake of fire, they are first resurrected from the dead. Revelation 20:4-6 explains that, you said, a passage which tells us that they were resurrected after the thousand years were finished. Once again, nothing about the damned receiving EBSET. They are resurrected, judged, and tossed into the lake of fire. Nothing has been said about their bodies yet, in either of these texts.

Then you point to Luke 15:24 and Romans 14:9, but neither of these show that the damned receive EBSET. Are you under the impression that I asked you to prove that the damned are resurrected? That is not what I asked you.

That was all the biblical texts you had cited. So, as I'm sure most people can see, you did not answer my question. I will ask it again for the sake of clarity:

Where in Scripture does it say that the damned will receive everlasting bodies suited to eternal torment?

P1LGR1M said:

I am pretty much done with this forum for now, but you are welcome to look at what I have posted and, if you have problems with what I have said, perhaps it might encourage me to spend a little more time here.

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I mean, you haven't even come close to providing what I asked of you. But, by all means, feel free to take your leave. You're under no obligation to provide biblical support for your beliefs (despite claiming that's all you rely on to support your views). I was simply hoping you had it, since I wasn't able to find any in the Belgic Confession of Faith which makes a similar claim. One day I hope to encounter a Bible-believing Christian who believes this and does have a biblical case for it.

Until then, see you around.

P1LGR1M said:

You would probably be more interested in my view that regeneration began at Pentecost, ...

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Not even a little.

P1LGR1M said:

And I will say up front that I reject the modern Arminian error that man has an inherent ability in his natural state to understand the spiritual things of God.

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Okay. However, that's not even in the same ballpark as what I had requested.

P1LGR1M said:

I'm pretty fair about it: I think both sides are wrong.

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Okay.

P1LGR1M said:

And this is relevant to what I said...how?

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It's not relevant at all—and it wasn't addressed to you.

If you go back to that post, you will see three consecutive little tilde signs, center-aligned in the post (~~~), marking the transition from talking to you to addressing someone else.

P1LGR1M said:

I have made a case that pretty much everything this member teaches is false.

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Again, wasn't addressed to you.

P1LGR1M said:

Here's a good one: "Rethinking Hell is like Martin Luther rethinking grace." (Close quote, possibly, but covers the intent of what was said).

That would go for both of you.

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Okay. But, again, completely irrelevant to what I had requested of you.

wendykvw said:

Feel free to share the version you had in mind. There is no conspiracy to misrepresent your faith. If you wish to share your confessions and catechisms by all means do so.

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You made three demonstrably erroneous claims about what those with a Reformed view believe or teach (Claim 1, Claim 2, Claim 3), which you should know as someone with internet access because all Reformed confessions and catechisms are freely available.

You thanked me for that reply and then linked to Article 16 of the Belgic Confession of Faith. That link confused me, so I asked why you provided it. "Do you suppose [Article 16] supports one of your claims? Which one?"

But you never answered me. Instead, you said I could share whatever version I had in mind.

Well, see, I don't have a preferred version of the Belgic Confession of Faith. Use any one you like—or any other Reformed confession or catechism. I want you to use whatever source was the basis for your three claims, so I can show you the error. (For all I know, your claim wasn't based on any formal Reformed confession or catechism. But if that were the case, I'd hope you would admit as much.)

wendykvw said:

Thanks for letting me know you have no interest in my assertions.

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Why would anyone have any interest in assertions without biblical support?
If there is no support for them then the assertions would be seen as lacking fidelity to the truth.
There is only one way to eternal life. That way is through the cross of Christ. All other paths lead to eternal destruction.
I would posit that those who seek to create a false path to eternal life such as re-thinking hell are really creating for themselves an escape route around the truth of scripture.