Ray Boltz comes out

[Simon_Templar]

Tell us all PastorJim how long you've had the ability to know someone's heart and to know that they are not repentant. Please. I'd love to hear this. You also don't know for certain that he isn't saved. There's lots of saved heterosexual Christians who are engaged in adultery by looking at internet porn. But I guess they're all saved since they're heterosexual right?

In my opinion pastor Jim is too extreme in his view. I don't believe that struggling with sin causes someone to be unsaved. If it did, I'd have to admit that I could not be considered saved.

However, I do believe that the real issue is allegience. A righteous man is he that falls seven times, and seven times gets up. Seven represents completeness or perfection in the sense of being all inclusive. So this is essentially saying that it doesn't matter how many times you fall, it only matters that you continue to get up.

If a person struggles with sin, but they admit their sin and continue to try and overcome it, and continue to pursue righteousness.. then their allegience is with God over self.
When someone deliberately justifies their sin in direct opposition to God's revealed word, they are in danger of putting allegience to self, above allegience to God. That, in my opinion, is an issue that affects salvation.

Further, GreenMunchkin earlier made a comment about Boltz being decieved. That is also a crucial importance. Deception is a killer and when you justify self and decide to follow your will rather than God's... you are taking the first step into deception, and it will inevitably get worse (as if that in itself weren't bad enough).

 

[Carolyn H]

Praying for Mr. Boltz and his family.

 

[PastorJim]

In my opinion pastor Jim is too extreme in his view. I don't believe that struggling with sin causes someone to be unsaved.

First of all, I never said that struggling with sin causes somebody to be unsaved. I said that the Bible tells us in 1 John that someone who continues to live on in unrepentant sin is not saved. Read it for yourself:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - 1 John 3:4-10

Second, Boltz is not "struggling" with sin. According to his own words, he is willfully serving sin.

If a person struggles with sin, but they admit their sin and continue to try and overcome it, and continue to pursue righteousness.. then their allegience is with God over self.

What does this have to do with Boltz? Boltz has already stated that he does not plan to repent, but is going to pursue a sinful lifestyle.

 

[Nadiine]

1Co 10:12 –1Co 10:13 NKJV
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

thanks for quoting that verse, I thought about this verse after I first read the OP becuz I wouldn't of expected this of a man who could sing or write such spiritually deep songs.

It can happen to anybody - we can all fall at anytime.

Except for the grace of God, we'd all be in big trouble.

 

[Nadiine]

First of all, I never said that struggling with sin causes somebody to be unsaved. I said that the Bible tells us in 1 John that someone who continues to live on in unrepentant sin is not saved. Read it for yourself:


Second, Boltz is not "struggling" with sin. According to his own words, he is willfully serving sin.


What does this have to do with Boltz? Boltz has already stated that he does not plan to repent, but is going to pursue a sinful lifestyle.

I agree with you on these - he may be inwardly "struggling" still, but the FRUIT he's showing is that he isn't struggling & since 2004 acted on his final decision to divorce and pursue male partners.

4 years later, he continues in the lifestyle and has supported his sin by finding a church sympathetic to his sin. Willful acceptance of the sin.

& I agree w/ Zec that we can't know people's hearts inwardly; despite what they claim. God's heavy hand of conviction can still be pummelling Bolt'z heart - in fact, I'm sure it is. But at some point, he may be able to tune out the Holy Spirit and sear his conscience completely.

Will he repent? Who knows - probly not if he's able to join a church that coddles sin and ignores his adultery (when he's divorced a wife to be with other partners sexually)...

 

[Nadiine]

However, I do believe that the real issue is allegience. A righteous man is he that falls seven times, and seven times gets up. Seven represents completeness or perfection in the sense of being all inclusive. So this is essentially saying that it doesn't matter how many times you fall, it only matters that you continue to get up.

If a person struggles with sin, but they admit their sin and continue to try and overcome it, and continue to pursue righteousness.. then their allegience is with God over self.
When someone deliberately justifies their sin in direct opposition to God's revealed word, they are in danger of putting allegience to self, above allegience to God. That, in my opinion, is an issue that affects salvation.

Exactly. The sin is now being justified by him. The struggling part is when you're being worked over by conviction by God to get us to REPENT and turn from our sin.
Once you make your decision to choose the sin over righteousness, the repentance is rejected and you're working to accept & have your sin supported.
I absolutely believe that affects salvation.

Further, GreenMunchkin earlier made a comment about Boltz being decieved. That is also a crucial importance. Deception is a killer and when you justify self and decide to follow your will rather than God's... you are taking the first step into deception, and it will inevitably get worse (as if that in itself weren't bad enough)

and it's what God has warned us about repeatedly and clearly in His word:

Apostacy is a sign of the end times and I'm seeing it today like I've never seen it before. If people who claim Christ don't completely fall away, many of them are now struggling with serious deception and confusion in their faith.
It's no wonder that Jesus said if he doesn't shorten the days that even the elect would be decieved. Demonic deception is at an alltime high.
We need to be closer to the Lord in the times we live in.

off my soapbox

1 Tim 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

Jude 1 (apostates)
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.
19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

 

[BenAdam]

Boltz is not "struggling" with sin. According to his own words, he is willfully serving sin.

And that is the crux of the matter. Until there is repentance nothing can happen for him but continuing descent into sin.

 

[Zecryphon]

In my opinion pastor Jim is too extreme in his view. I don't believe that struggling with sin causes someone to be unsaved. If it did, I'd have to admit that I could not be considered saved.

However, I do believe that the real issue is allegience. A righteous man is he that falls seven times, and seven times gets up. Seven represents completeness or perfection in the sense of being all inclusive. So this is essentially saying that it doesn't matter how many times you fall, it only matters that you continue to get up.

If a person struggles with sin, but they admit their sin and continue to try and overcome it, and continue to pursue righteousness.. then their allegience is with God over self.
When someone deliberately justifies their sin in direct opposition to God's revealed word, they are in danger of putting allegience to self, above allegience to God. That, in my opinion, is an issue that affects salvation.

Further, GreenMunchkin earlier made a comment about Boltz being decieved. That is also a crucial importance. Deception is a killer and when you justify self and decide to follow your will rather than God's... you are taking the first step into deception, and it will inevitably get worse (as if that in itself weren't bad enough).

According to PastorJim, Boltz is unrepentant about his homosexual sex. If that's true, then Boltz needs to be put out of the church as he is unrepentant of his sin. I believe that if someone is homosexual, it does not automatically make them a non-Christian who was never saved. There are struggling homosexuals. There are homosexuals who deny themselves and either choose to be celibate or marry a person of the opposite sex and have families. There's all kinds of different responses from people who are gay to their homosexuality. We have to be careful not to throw out the real Christians with the unrepentant Christians based upon something as recent as the word "homosexual."

 

[Zecryphon]

Exactly. The sin is now being justified by him. The struggling part is when you're being worked over by conviction by God to get us to REPENT and turn from our sin.
Once you make your decision to choose the sin over righteousness, the repentance is rejected and you're working to accept & have your sin supported.
I absolutely believe that affects salvation.


and it's what God has warned us about repeatedly and clearly in His word:

Apostacy is a sign of the end times and I'm seeing it today like I've never seen it before. If people who claim Christ don't completely fall away, many of them are now struggling with serious deception and confusion in their faith.
It's no wonder that Jesus said if he doesn't shorten the days that even the elect would be decieved. Demonic deception is at an alltime high.
We need to be closer to the Lord in the times we live in.

off my soapbox

1 Tim 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

Jude 1 (apostates)
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.
19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

I don't know that you can call Boltz an apostate though as he seems to still claim Christ as his savior. I think it's better to describe him as a heretic as he is embracing and promoting false teachings. Since that is the case, care to join me, Nadiine?

*Zec throws Nadiine a fisk*

 

[PastorJim]

48638008]I don't know that you can call Boltz an apostate though as he seems to still claim Christ as his savior. I think it's better to describe him as a heretic as he is embracing and promoting false teachings. Since that is the case, care to join me, Nadiine?[/COLOR]

*Zec throws Nadiine a fisk*

Biblically, he is an apostate.

 

[Nadiine]

I don't know that you can call Boltz an apostate though as he seems to still claim Christ as his savior. I think it's better to describe him as a heretic as he is embracing and promoting false teachings. Since that is the case, care to join me, Nadiine?

*Zec throws Nadiine a fisk*

Oh....
I should have clarified - I actually wasn't calling Boltz an apostate.
(altho that actually might be close to appropriate technically if it continues permanently
he is following false doctrines and has "left" the faith at least by way of truth)

I came across those verses that do seem to fit others I've seen.
That was my mistake in not noting that when I quoted those (which is why I didn't bold them like the verses that did apply above them, I stuck them on in regular print separately).

I refuse your fisk and raise you a daisy. heh

 

[Zecryphon]

You're gonna slap Boltz with a bouquet of daisies? That hardly seems effective, but maybe he'l have an allergic reaction. hehehehe Or is that bouquet for me? Is it ironic that I'm listening to Judas Priest as I type this? LOL