Rawr

[holo]

how do you figure?

The bible says so, and I experience it to be true all the time. "When the commandment came, sin sprang to life," Paul writes. The more you try to live according to rules, the more temptation you will face and the more power sin will have over you. That's why we're supposed to live in FAITH instead, and be led by the SPIRIT, not the letter.

There are more problems with living by rules:
it steals glory from God,
it suggests that YOU do it on your own instead of God doing it through you,
if you seem to be able to live according to whatever rules you have, you will look down on those who don't,
if you break whatever rules you have, you will feel guilty and shameful and unworthy,
rules are stiff and undynamic and unable to teach you right from wrong,
it will keep you small and baby-like and unable to distinguish between good and bad, only between legal and illegal,
it takes your eyes OFF Jesus and on to yourself

etc.

 

[Assisi]

Should you date? It depends on the definition of dating. I would say that my husband and I dated, our parents would say that we courted.

Seventeen is a great time to start getting to know your parents as an adult, and setting a foundation for a great relationship with them in the future. This issue could be the topic which draws you to a deeper level of trust. I think you should talk to your parents about it, and when you do make it clear that you are listening to them not just reiterating your point of view. They obviously have your best interests at heart here, but they might not understand how you feel about it. So I would say to them that:
*you want to take their advice
*you want to know how they 'courted' so that you can follow in their footsteps
*you want them to define courtship in detail. Get them to tell you the specifics of their expectations
*you don't want to but are willing to break up with your current boyfriend (if this is still the case) out of respect for them

These things will make your parents see that you have listened to them and that you care about what they have said. You will gain trust from them.

Then explain your side of the story if neccessary, maybe not in the same conversation though. Compare what you are doing with your boyfriend to their description of courtship. They may say that they want you to be a little older first, they may say they want you to go out with other boys, they may say that they don't want you to have an 'official' relationship until you know you could marry this guy, they may want him to be able to support a marriage first. Who knows what they will say, each parent has their own concerns and I'm just guessing here. In your comparison you may find that you are already doing what they want, or you may not. I would tell them the things you agree with them on (eg physical boundaries in non married couples), and demonstrate to them that you are trying to lead a Christian life. If you know their specific concerns you are more able to put their minds at rest.

My husband and I met at 18, and I know that for a long time my MIL was worried that we were too young to be 'serious'. She was only concerned that we would have time to be young and to see a number of other young people so that we could make a wise choice. Her worries stemmed from her love for us both, and we were able to put those worries to rest through our conduct.

 

[Blank123]

The bible says so, and I experience it to be true all the time. "When the commandment came, sin sprang to life," Paul writes. The more you try to live according to rules, the more temptation you will face and the more power sin will have over you. That's why we're supposed to live in FAITH instead, and be led by the SPIRIT, not the letter.

There are more problems with living by rules:
it steals glory from God,
it suggests that YOU do it on your own instead of God doing it through you,
if you seem to be able to live according to whatever rules you have, you will look down on those who don't,
if you break whatever rules you have, you will feel guilty and shameful and unworthy,
rules are stiff and undynamic and unable to teach you right from wrong,
it will keep you small and baby-like and unable to distinguish between good and bad, only between legal and illegal,
it takes your eyes OFF Jesus and on to yourself

etc.

there's a couple of problems with that theory though...What was the purpose of the law? to serve as a mirror and show us what sinners we are, how we've fallen short of the glory of God, and why we need a Saviour.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. - Romans 7:7

The law is also used to conform us to Christ's image. Nowhere does the Bible say that the law was abolished. On the contrary, Christ said:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-20

and Paul reiterates on that theme...

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. - Romans 5:15-19

Note that person with no law = unrighteousness before God. because...

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. - Romans 3:27-31

by the law we are justified before God. The law is so important to God in fact that he writes on the hearts of His people:

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”- Jeremiah 31:33-34

And on that same note parents are expected to act as authority figures over their children and raise them right.

Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it. - Proverbs 22:6

4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. - Ephesians 6:4

and likewise children are supposed to obey and honour their parents as they are the authority figures God has placed in their lives.

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.” - Eph 6:1-3

and we're all commanded to submit to the authority figures in our lives

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7

if it were impossible to obey rules and authority figures without sinning.... did God make a mistake?

 

[BranwenUerchLlyr]

What is courting to your parents? It is a wide and varied term. It is used interchangeably for anything from dating with the intent of marriage, to only seeing and speaking with each other in the presence of parents and pastors.

But as long as you're in your parents’ house, you should follow their rules. In the meantime, think and pray about what you want out of a relationship regardless of a name. The name and the process mean nothing if the two of you aren't dedicated and doing it for a reason.

 

[holo]

there's a couple of problems with that theory though...What was the purpose of the law? to serve as a mirror and show us what sinners we are, how we've fallen short of the glory of God, and why we need a Saviour.

OK, but now that we have come to that saviour, what use do we have for the law?

The law is also used to conform us to Christ's image.

!!!

Where did you get that idea?

Nowhere does the Bible say that the law was abolished.

Yes, I believe it does, but that doesn't matter, because even if the law hasn't been abolished, I would still be dead to it. And I'm a gentile too, by the way, so I have absolutely nothing to do with the law anyway.

Note that person with no law = unrighteousness before God.

No, a person without Christ is without righteousness

by the law we are justified before God.

No, the bible says no such thing.

The law is so important to God in fact that he writes on the hearts of His people:

Maybe, but that law isn't the same as the law given to Moses.

if it were impossible to obey rules and authority figures without sinning.... did God make a mistake?

God didn't make a mistake, but he knows that righteousness doesn't come by the law. ALL of your righteousness is a gift.

If Abraham didn't need the law, what am I supposed to need it for?

 

[Blank123]

OK, but now that we have come to that saviour, what use do we have for the law?

!!!

Where did you get that idea?

Yes, I believe it does, but that doesn't matter, because even if the law hasn't been abolished, I would still be dead to it. And I'm a gentile too, by the way, so I have absolutely nothing to do with the law anyway.

No, the bible says no such thing.

God didn't make a mistake, but he knows that righteousness doesn't come by the law. ALL of your righteousness is a gift.

If Abraham didn't need the law, what am I supposed to need it for?

read the passages i posted once more very carefully


17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-20


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. - Romans 5:15-19


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. - Romans 3:27-31

 

[intricatic]

Um, no, the Law is not abolished, and we are only dead to it in the retributive sense - that is, we're dead to following the Law for the sake of following the Law. Without the Law, we have no understanding of sin, and we may walk into sin without our knowledge. But consider this....

We know that Christ fulfilled the higher meaning behind many of the sacrificial elements of the Law (that is to say, He completed, or demonstrated their full meaning), and the temple was only a shadow of Heaven ---

1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
(Hebrews 9)

The Law was also elevated in like manner;

1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
(Hebrews 10)

And further;

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Hebrews 10)

The Law of Righteousness is the moral element, the meaning within, behind, and above the Law. Rejecting the Law is rejecting Christ, being the perfect fulfillment of the Law, Himself. We don't owe any worship to the Law, but we owe worship to Christ. We aren't bound under the retributive elements of the Law, as that stands in the sole hands of Christ - we merely live according to a desire for Christ's righteousness, which can never be understood without the Law. This is the case because "righteousness" and "sin" both derive their meaning from the Law, even when applied to Christ.

 

[faerieevaH]

.

 

[holo]

read the passages i posted once more very carefully


17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-20


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. - Romans 5:15-19


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. - Romans 3:27-31

Well, I still only need to know what exactly I'm supposed to use the law for. Abraham didn't have it, why should I? And when was it given to the gentiles? It doesn't matter whether or not it's been abolished, even if I had ever been under it, I would still be dead to it now, no?

 

[faerieevaH]

I thinkt he question of wheter or not it's unbiblical depends on your definition of both courting and dating.

If dating means: going out with people and having a good time, it's not necessarily unbiblical. If it means: trying out romances before you are ready to even consider marriage, it probably is. Will either of them go against the letter of the bible? no... I doubt anyone can give a quote saying: "You shall not date..." Or "and God saw Emais go out with a woman, and he was dismayed". As is said before, the very concept of dating didn't exist in biblical times, but neither did the internet.
What we can read in biblical stories and admonitions though is a rule of thumb not to go out and look for romance and temptation, but to keep your eyes open for someone to share your life with when that time is come.

In a nutshell, that is mostly the difference between what most people see as dating, and courting: dating is the trying out of romance before you are ready or willing to commit. Courting is the seeking of a potential lifepartner, and during this process finding romance.
This does not mean that the first person that you allow to court you should be the one you marry, just that he should at least be someone you would, in all seriousness, consider marrying.

Now, all that does most certainly not mean that you should spend your teenage years locked up or only in the company of girls. Make lots of friends, go out in groups. If you have a male friend of long standing with whom there is no particular romantic connection, go out with him by yourself if you want to. (but steer away from going to romantic movies, etc) Learn first how to befriend men. It will later give you much more insight when you start courting.

What is the plus side of this? If you casually date, then you also casually get romance. A candlelit dinner, holding hands in the backrow of the movietheater, small things that spin romance. By the time you are ready to commit and search for a lifepartner, all that is 'been there, done that' and often sex remains the only thing unexplored. (If it remains unexplored). It is wonderful to save a bit of the magic of romance for when you can share it with people who will do it not just as a dating ritual, not lightly, but with the deliberate idea that you just might be the one with whom they wish to share all this for life.

 

[holo]

Um, no, the Law is not abolished, and we are only dead to it in the retributive sense - that is, we're dead to following the Law for the sake of following the Law. Without the Law, we have no understanding of sin, and we may walk into sin without our knowledge. But consider this....

We know that Christ fulfilled the higher meaning behind many of the sacrificial elements of the Law (that is to say, He completed, or demonstrated their full meaning), and the temple was only a shadow of Heaven ---

The Law was also elevated in like manner;

And further;

The Law of Righteousness is the moral element, the meaning within, behind, and above the Law. Rejecting the Law is rejecting Christ, being the perfect fulfillment of the Law, Himself. We don't owe any worship to the Law, but we owe worship to Christ. We aren't bound under the retributive elements of the Law, as that stands in the sole hands of Christ - we merely live according to a desire for Christ's righteousness, which can never be understood without the Law. This is the case because "righteousness" and "sin" both derive their meaning from the Law, even when applied to Christ.

Yes, sin was in the world way before the law came, and people knew about sin and guilt and sacrifice and all that.

Rejecting the law is NOT rejecting Christ! On the contrary, to live under the law is UNFAITHFULNESS against Christ - Paul repeatedly warns against that - we belong to another, we're betrothed to Christ, the law has no claim on us any longer.

What on earth do you need the law for? You have Christ, you have the very Spirit of the Lord IN YOU, what possible use do you have for the written code, the law that never brought anyone to righteousness?

 

[intricatic]

Yes, sin was in the world way before the law came, and people knew about sin and guilt and sacrifice and all that.

That's because sin is a constant indication of humanity. Sacrifice is not sin, though - we don't offer sacrifice for atonement now that atonement has been fulfilled in Christ, but the moral element of righteousness is only granted through Christ (as Paul says: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.(Ephesians 2)), but sin and the Law still exist and still serve to guide a person to an understanding of Love, as God created it to be.

Rejecting the law is NOT rejecting Christ! On the contrary, to live under the law is UNFAITHFULNESS against Christ - Paul repeatedly warns against that - we belong to another, we're betrothed to Christ, the law has no claim on us any longer.

Who's saying we should live under the Law? I'm saying we should live under Christ - He is our mediator and our Righteous Judge.

What on earth do you need the law for? You have Christ, you have the very Spirit of the Lord IN YOU, what possible use do you have for the written code, the law that never brought anyone to righteousness?

How do you think the Spirit communicates to you what sin is and is not? Does a believer's mind simply cease to function once they pronounce faith in Christ?

 

[holo]

That's because sin is a constant indication of humanity. Sacrifice is not sin, though - we don't offer sacrifice for atonement now that atonement has been fulfilled in Christ, but the moral element of righteousness is only granted through Chris

Sorry, but I don't understand what the "moral element of righteousness" is. Care to elaborate on that?

but sin and the Law still exist and still serve to guide a person to an understanding of Love, as God created it to be.

I can't think of one singel instance when the law has helped me to understand love. Do you have an example of that?

Who's saying we should live under the Law? I'm saying we should live under Christ - He is our mediator and our Righteous Judge.

I assumed that was what we could use the law for - live under it. I don't know what it's good for if not

How do you think the Spirit communicates to you what sin is and is not? Does a believer's mind simply cease to function once they pronounce faith in Christ?

Well, it's not like I have to read through the ten commandments each morning in order to remember not to kill anyone. Instead, the living, flowing, dynamic Spirit who is in me, the new creature that I am, operates in an entirely different manner - instead of sorting out what's legal and not, I focus on how I may serve my neighbour. I've often felt/heard the Spirit urge me to comfort someone, to shut up, to go somewhere, and sometimes the Spirit has led and used me without my even realizing it until later. I can't remember on time that God neede to remind me not to steal, for example.

But that's the problem with the law, isn't it? It treats you like a criminal, and indeed the law is for the wicked and the ungodly. But you're neither. You're righteous, you're not a sinner. Not only does the law treat you like a criminal, the commandment is the power of sin. So it both allows sin to enslave you, and then it condemns you. And you don't realize it, because the commandment itself is so good...

Living in faith is the opposite of living by law. The law points to you, faith points to Christ.

 

[intricatic]

Sorry, but I don't understand what the "moral element of righteousness" is. Care to elaborate on that?

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

I can't think of one singel instance when the law has helped me to understand love. Do you have an example of that?

The Law itself was created to demonstrate what love is. That's why Christ always has such nice things to say about it, such as;

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Matthew 22)

But silly people then came along and said "I've found a loophole in the Law, see, I can do X, though it's prohibited, if I do conditional Y!" and completely missed the point.

I assumed that was what we could use the law for - live under it. I don't know what it's good for if not

You don't live under the Law, that's just silliness. You learn from it.

Well, it's not like I have to read through the ten commandments each morning in order to remember not to kill anyone. Instead, the living, flowing, dynamic Spirit who is in me, the new creature that I am, operates in an entirely different manner - instead of sorting out what's legal and not, I focus on how I may serve my neighbour. I've often felt/heard the Spirit urge me to comfort someone, to shut up, to go somewhere, and sometimes the Spirit has led and used me without my even realizing it until later. I can't remember on time that God neede to remind me not to steal, for example.

Why would you need to read through the ten commandments? The Law is what defines sin for us - our minds are carnal and sinful. The Spirit guides us, but God gave us brains for a reason - if we don't know the Law, we're sure to violate it. If we do know it, we're sure to violate it, but the Holy Spirit can convict us of it to keep us from doing it again. That's not saying this isn't possible outside the Law laid out in the Bible. Paul says even those without the Law create a Law unto themselves.

But that's the problem with the law, isn't it? It treats you like a criminal, and indeed the law is for the wicked and the ungodly. But you're neither. You're righteous, you're not a sinner. Not only does the law treat you like a criminal, the commandment is the power of sin. So it both allows sin to enslave you, and then it condemns you. And you don't realize it, because the commandment itself is so good...

The Law doesn't treat you like anything. It's words on paper. The Law shouldn't be looked at in negative terms because one is sure to legalize it - as man is highly prone to doing.

Living in faith is the opposite of living by law. The law points to you, faith points to Christ.

Living in faith is hardly the opposite of using the Law to define sin.

 

[holo]

The Law itself was created to demonstrate what love is.

Christ is a much better demonstration. Grace is a better demonstration.

You don't live under the Law, that's just silliness. You learn from it.

What do I learn from it? What do YOU learn from it, for example?

The Law is what defines sin for us

No, it only defines sin fror thsoe under the mosaic covenant. Abraham didn't need the law to define sin, and I don't either.

- our minds are carnal and sinful.

In the old man, yes.But not in the new

The Law doesn't treat you like anything.

Well, but the law is for the wicked and the ungodly.

Living in faith is hardly the opposite of using the Law to define sin.

Yes it is. Paul even says that whatever is not of taith is sin! Like if god tells me to go visit someone. If I don't do that, I sin. The law says absolutely nothing about who I am to visit, and when. The Spirit may also tell me that I shouldn't drink in front of this person, and the next day he may urge me to buy another person a beer. The law is completely useless in guiding me in a good manner. Especially when I have faith, Christ and the Spirit.

Not only is it pretty much useless, it's also very dangerous to be flirting with the law, or to live by commandments and rules at all. Because the commandment is the power of sin. The more commandments, and the stricter they are, the more opportunity for the devil to tempt you. If you read through the bible, you'll see that the devil ALWAYS lures people by using the commandment, all the way from Eden to the golden calf and up to Paul's personal struggles. But God has offered us a better way to live

 

[intricatic]

Christ is a much better demonstration. Grace is a better demonstration.

Yes, Christ exemplified the Law in His life, so He makes a fantastic demonstration of it. But if one doesn't understand the Law, they probably won't understand why Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of it. As for grace, from what?

What do I learn from it? What do YOU learn from it, for example?

Already covered this.

No, it only defines sin fror thsoe under the mosaic covenant. Abraham didn't need the law to define sin, and I don't either.

Abraham didn't need to follow God's commandments to him?

In the old man, yes.But not in the new

Are you perfected already? I'm not. I'm far from it. God's promise to us through Christ is regeneration - but if we don't know sin, what is that regeneration from?

Well, but the law is for the wicked and the ungodly.

No, the Law in retributive terms is for the wicked and ungodly, that's translated into the laws of the land we live in, as well. But the Law stood to teach us about love - the wicked and ungodly are those who missed the point and put themselves under it's retributive aspect.

Yes it is. Paul even says that whatever is not of taith is sin! Like if god tells me to go visit someone. If I don't do that, I sin. The law says absolutely nothing about who I am to visit, and when. The Spirit may also tell me that I shouldn't drink in front of this person, and the next day he may urge me to buy another person a beer. The law is completely useless in guiding me in a good manner. Especially when I have faith, Christ and the Spirit.

What does this have to do with the Law? The Law (and consequently the Bible) is one of the tools the Spirit uses to teach.

Not only is it pretty much useless, it's also very dangerous to be flirting with the law, or to live by commandments and rules at all. Because the commandment is the power of sin. The more commandments, and the stricter they are, the more opportunity for the devil to tempt you. If you read through the bible, you'll see that the devil ALWAYS lures people by using the commandment, all the way from Eden to the golden calf and up to Paul's personal struggles. But God has offered us a better way to live

Who's living by commandments and rules? Who flirts with the Law? I don't remember saying any such thing. God gave us the Law for a reason - it's not my fault, nor is it God's fault, when people misunderstand that reason or miss the entire point of it. I wouldn't know what sin was without the Law, and consequently, I wouldn't know why "Love" is the only law under Christ, without it. I wouldn't even know what love was.

 

[faerieevaH]

I do think this may be turning more in a debate between you both than in advice...

 

[holo]

Yes, Christ exemplified the Law in His life, so He makes a fantastic demonstration of it. But if one doesn't understand the Law, they probably won't understand why Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of it.

How is Jesus a demonstration of the law? Paul says about Christ that God's righteousness has been reveald APART FROM the law.

As for grace, from what?

From sin. Which was around way before the law, which was never given to the gentiles anyhow.

Abraham didn't need to follow God's commandments to him?

Yes, but what has that do do with the law? God didn't give the law to Abraham.

Are you perfected already?

Yes, I'm 100% righteous. I can't become any more righteous than I already am

Can you?

Ibut if we don't know sin, what is that regeneration from?

Sure, but like Paul says, "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound...?"
Nah.

No, the Law in retributive terms is for the wicked and ungodly

That's your highly persona interpretation The scriptures don't actually say that.

, that's translated into the laws of the land we live in, as well. But the Law stood to teach us about love

Says who, and where?

- the wicked and ungodly are those who missed the point and put themselves under it's retributive aspect.

There's no such thing as being under the law's "retributive aspect." Like any earthly law, you're either under it, or you're not. I'm under norwegian law, for example, but not under german law. I'm under norwegian law 24/7 as long as I'm in Norway, regardless of whether I break it or not.

What does this have to do with the Law?

Nothing, and that's the point

The Law (and consequently the Bible) is one of the tools the Spirit uses to teach.

Teach what? I can't recall the Spirit using the law to teach me anything. What about you?

Who's living by commandments and rules?

I thought you were. I'm only glad to be wrong.

I wouldn't know what sin was without the Law

I would. And so would Abraham and everybody else who lived before the law, as well as all the gentiles (including me).

, and consequently, I wouldn't know why "Love" is the only law under Christ, without it. I wouldn't even know what love was.

I would. I love because he loved me first. The law has nothing to do with it. But seriously, if you need the law/God has used the law to teach you about love somehow, more power to you. But don't make it a rule for everybody else. And by all means, do share how that happened

 

[intricatic]

Apologies, but I must duck out of this conversation.