Ravi Zacharias - what happened? Your thoughts?

[DaisyDay]

IMHO the only man that should be revered is Jesus Christ.

Do you revere the man that he was or the god that he is?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Do you revere the man that he was or the god that he is?

Both.He purchased my redemption as the sinless man. He ever reigns as my Lord and my God.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Ravi Zacharias Was Not Some Average Sinner in the Church. He Was a Predator With a Profound Psychiatric Problem | The Wartburg Watch 2024

thewartburgwatch.com

My main issue is the way people prioritize certain kinds of "sins" over others, and even prioritize granular instances of "sins" that are of the same type.

Perhaps as a "heathen" it's not my place to throw stones here...

But it always seems like sins of a sexual nature are prioritized as being "super bad" over others that do far more damage, and when it comes to "forgiveness" and the "well, none of us are perfect, we all fall short" sympathetic tone seems to hit a screeching halt when the perceived "sexual sins" cross the line from heterosexual to homosexual.

For instance, it comes across as a lot of people of faith would be more forgiving and sympathetic with the "we all struggle, nobody's perfect" tone toward a guy who cheated on their wife (or wives) and got "special massages" in parlors than they would be toward a monogamous gay man who never cheated on a partner.

If "sins of a sexual nature" are the ones where they're going to draw the line in the sand with regards to flexibility, then they should apply it consistently.

 

[rambot]

The problem I have with this situation is that it's after the fact. There seems to be a trend about non-Christian people secular and pagan to want a tear apart Christians and manufacture evidence or extend evidence further than what the actual incidents are. I sight to you the former president of the United States Donald Trump as an example of that. While he has many faults in his committed many sins that is not in dispute they make up stuff about him that is simply not true and people believe it. Now if he does something wrong even if it's a minor incident it only gives them fuel to the fire they'll twist everything he says and does and take it to whatever extreme they want. This is what I have a problem with the Ravi Zacharias situation exactly what is the nature of his crimes into what detail I don't know. But if they could over exaggerate what he did they will. If they could take out a major apologist and silence his voice then they will do that.

Unfortunately, there is an equally problematic trend of Christians ignoring behaviour they abhor so long as it comes out of a certain person; whether it be a politician or religious leader.

There are many very intelligent and wonderful spiritual leaders. Why focus on someone so willing to hurt others? How can you embody the spirit if you so frequently hurt others?

 

[rambot]

Well I really liked the man of God. He's gone he's in heaven and any sin he may have done is not will not ever be held to his account. God does not even remember this. What gets me is how believers talk. Each one here has sin and some choose to have it measured so their sin is really not as bad. Then if Ravi was stand with Christ and then we standing there also. Not one believer is with out sin we just make up this measuring system where our sin is nothing like "that" persons! So if Ravi was standing with Christ and then we standing there not ONE believer would say a word. You would know just by His presences He died for ALL your sin. There is no sin He forgot to die for.

He will wonder how is it you remember something I do not? What happen to 70*7 for Ravi is a bother in Christ. Then to know Ravi never sinned against us only God as its written. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

No clue why we don't think he repented. If you followed me around you might have some questions about my faith. But what only GOD sees and knows is I truly repent every day. Even those sins I was stuck in. You know exactly what I mean. So we have a choice to be like Christ or like the world. We know and praise GOD Christ every forgave and died for our sis yet look how we treat someone 'OTHERS" say he was not perfect. Yeah no one here is sharing there personal life and all the sins they do lol. Not the lies or drinking or smoking, not going to Church, struggling with lust, not praying 24/7 about everything and reading the word every day that we were told to keep before our eyes.

Were told how to think "brethren (yep you and me) whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things." how to talk. To never ever let any corrupt, unwholesome,/bad/negative communication ever come out of our mouth but that which is good to help to edify "Do not let unwholesome [foul, profane, worthless, vulgar] words ever come out of your mouth, but only such speech as is good for building up others, according to the need and the occasion, so that it will be a blessing to those who hear [you speak]."

Look at each other as Christ and God see you. Each one of us have this flesh that is not changed. All this is mute he's not here its only one side of a story and is anyone thinking about his family? Just gossip."casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true." Yeah again Ravi is not here to defend himself. I know how my GOD looks at me and for 61 years never once pointed out my sin my faults. When I wanted and was going to leave him because my heart convicted me 24/7 of sin. Do you know what He saw? He asked me what was righteousness and then asked how do you get righteousness. He has never once made me feel guilty something they OT did make offering's for yet Christ also died for guilt. Did you know that? Theres no measuring system here. Lust or a lie both God hates.

Its whats in my heart is how I speak. I am no ones judge. So whatever you did or do.. He does not condemn you not judging you loves you. Just repent and keep going. Stuck in some sin? DON'T run from Him run to Him. Keep getting up dusting off keep going. Matters not what others say or think. GOD loves you GOD sees you holy righteous. I will not play the speculation game. If I offended forgive me

I wonder if he asked the people he hurt for their forgiveness? Did he go back to THEM 70 times 7? Rape and assault are not are not small acts or transgressions.

 

[JSRG]

Ravi Zacharias Hid Hundreds of Pictures of Women, Abuse During Massages, and a Rape Allegation - Christianity Today

His ministry, preparing to downsize in the wake of a new investigation, expresses regret for “misplaced trust” in a leader who used his esteem to conceal his sexual misconduct.

www.christianitytoday.com

I haven't followed anyone closely so I don't know much about news or events that occur around Christians in the news.
I know Ravi Zacharias passed away a year ago and I know that he was serving in ministry for many decades. No one can
say anyone has perfect theology, but I thought Ravi Zacharias (and still do) was one of the best Christian educators/philosophers
of our time. I've always enjoyed his lectures, debates, and talks all around the world (on youtube).

I had no idea there was a follow up of some 'dirt' under the carpet and he's been investigated post-humously.
The problem I have with these kinds of stories is that it's easy to beat a man down when he's not around anymore to speak for himself.
I'm not saying he's completely innocent of any accusations, or misconduct/inappropriate behavior, but it sounds to me like he was
being severely smeared in his reputation based on his post-humous accusations. So it leaves believers like us in a strange spot.

While the accusations increased after his death, he had been accused of sexual misconduct even while he was alive.

I haven't gone over the evidence myself, but the fact is his own organization, after hiring an investigation firm to look into the matter, conceded that the accusations were very credible.

I can understand the impetus to be suspicious as these things happened after his death when he was no longer able to defend himself. However, the fact accusations had occurred beforehand, and the fact his own organization had to admit the validity of these criticisms, indicate to me that these are true.

 

[seeker2122]

While the accusations increased after his death, he had been accused of sexual misconduct even while he was alive.

I haven't gone over the evidence myself, but the fact is his own organization, after hiring an investigation firm to look into the matter, conceded that the accusations were very credible.

I can understand the impetus to be suspicious as these things happened after his death when he was no longer able to defend himself. However, the fact accusations had occurred beforehand, and the fact his own organization had to admit the validity of these criticisms, indicate to me that these are true.

I certainly can't disregard that for sure! I wonder of all the people that came forward with accusations, how many of them are getting paid/compensated money? I always get suspicious when it involves money. To me, that makes it all unreliable. People will do anything for some money. If they came forward and never wanted any money, I'll be more open to accept what they are claiming. Also, what they say MUST BE corroborated with other eyewitness accounts or evidence that also supports the same story. I don't think it is fair or right to allow a SINGLE person accusation to stand as truth because anyone can stand alone and make claims. If it's corroborated by several other people / evidence then it gives more veracity and authenticity to the claims.

It's the same reason why Biblical Scriptures has more evidence than the Quran because Scriptures has plenty of corroboration while the Quran has only 1 so it can't be relied upon as being the truth.

 

[seeker2122]

My main issue is the way people prioritize certain kinds of "sins" over others, and even prioritize granular instances of "sins" that are of the same type.

Perhaps as a "heathen" it's not my place to throw stones here...

But it always seems like sins of a sexual nature are prioritized as being "super bad" over others that do far more damage, and when it comes to "forgiveness" and the "well, none of us are perfect, we all fall short" sympathetic tone seems to hit a screeching halt when the perceived "sexual sins" cross the line from heterosexual to homosexual.

For instance, it comes across as a lot of people of faith would be more forgiving and sympathetic with the "we all struggle, nobody's perfect" tone toward a guy who cheated on their wife (or wives) and got "special massages" in parlors than they would be toward a monogamous gay man who never cheated on a partner.

If "sins of a sexual nature" are the ones where they're going to draw the line in the sand with regards to flexibility, then they should apply it consistently.

I do agree. Sexual sins are mentioned A LOT in the Bible so there is a lot of emphasis placed on that type of sin...it's definitely one of the most attention-given type of sin in the Bible so I guess that's also why it seems to be placed on a higher level than other sins/crimes like lying or cheating, even more than assault. A pastor that was caught punching someone can easily repair their reputation and standing vs a pastor who was caught sexually abusing someone. That pastor can NEVER repair their reputation and return to the same status (UNLESS the pastor had committed sexual sins BEFORE HE came to Christ and became a pastor...then those could be easily forgiven and overlooked, actually it would give that pastor more credibility and respect because of how much he had to overcome to get past it all).

I also think the "degree" of sexual sin. So if he actually raped women and children, that would be worse than if he had sexually harassed someone (as that meaning can be something as small as a little touch somewhere on the body), or if he had just been guilty of having a lots of pornographic photos but never really abused/assaulted anyone. But I'm not sure if God would give levels to those. God probably sees sins as mostly equal. Although it does appear in the Bible God makes certain sins worse than others so perhaps there are such things as levels to sin as well.

 

[seeker2122]

Ravi Zacharias was truly one of the greatest Christian minds of this century, if not the greatest. Unfortunately, he did not live a perfect life, which none of us do. Lust is the biggest downfall of all leaders. David lusted and yet he was still called one after God's own heart and God still blessed him mightily.

As terrible as Dr. Zacharias' actions were, do we disregard his knowledge and teaching? No, I do not think so. He had a great way of putting Biblical truths the likes of which hadn't been seen. They were easy and understandable for him to explain. It's terrible what came out after his death 2 years ago, but to throw away his teachings is going over the top. Unfortunately, that seems to already have been done considering that virtually nobody is publishing his works or selling them any longer.

I promise you though that virtually every Christian leader has something that they are struggling with, or will struggle with, that would cause people to question if they should even be in ministry.

I had just bought $120 worth of Ravi Zacharias books before he passed away. I guess there is no chance I can sell them and get any money for them now right? I'd still like to keep them I guess for the content but it just seems strange a little that all this has come out and now I have all these Zacharias books that probably nobody wants or even questions me why I have them.

 

[Tuur]

I was speaking of the line drawn for revering a sinner.

An interesting question. Maybe we have to ask two more questions:

1. What is that person revered for?
2. Does what they did contradict their work?

When a person's actions contradicts their work, then it brings all of their work into question. Local preachers call it someone losing their witness, and like someone on the witness stand, it makes their statements unreliable.

That's the case with Ravi Zacharias. Had he been a great surgeon, he could still be regarded as a great surgeon though his acts were reprehensible. But when any Christian sins, it raises the question of whether we really believe what they say. Given what we now know about Zacharias, I can't trust the books he wrote.

 

[seeker2122]

An interesting question. Maybe we have to ask two more questions:

1. What is that person revered for?
2. Does what they did contradict their work?

When a person's actions contradicts their work, then it brings all of their work into question. Local preachers call it someone losing their witness, and like someone on the witness stand, it makes their statements unreliable.

That's the case with Ravi Zacharias. Had he been a great surgeon, he could still be regarded as a great surgeon though his acts were reprehensible. But when any Christian sins, it raises the question of whether we really believe what they say. Given what we now know about Zacharias, I can't trust the books he wrote.

But then no human can qualify to teach or preach the Word of God. Every human has sin and does opposite of what they preach. So you have to throw away everyone's books since everyone is then disqualified. Only Jesus can preach but he's not here with us in physical form.

 

[Tuur]

But then no human can qualify to teach or preach the Word of God. Every human has sin and does opposite of what they preach. So you have to throw away everyone's books since everyone is then disqualified. Only Jesus can preach but he's not here with us in physical form.

Would you trust a police chief who was caught robbing a bank?

 

[rjs330]

Well, I have no idea where he is now. It depends. Did he repent of his actions? While his life is now destroyed, the good thing is that it doesn't matter if he had an opportunity to repent and gain forgiveness. Yes all his works may be burned, but the glory of Christ's death and resurrection is that Zacharias could still be saved.

That's the good news that Christ CE to give. You can live a life of disappointment and sin and still be with Christ in the end. It's just sad though that his example is so flawed that it sets up the unbeliever to say, what's the point?

If those that call themselves Christian can't live a righteous life why on earth do we teach we should. Why do we teach against sin? What right do we have?

But I am reminded of "if anyone claims they have no sin they are a liar and the truth is not in them."

Being a believer is not about being sinless, it's about forgiveness for the sin.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

I had just bought $120 worth of Ravi Zacharias books before he passed away. I guess there is no chance I can sell them and get any money for them now right? I'd still like to keep them I guess for the content but it just seems strange a little that all this has come out and now I have all these Zacharias books that probably nobody wants or even questions me why I have them.

You could sell them, but I think I read somewhere that a lot of booksellers, eBay, and other places were refusing to sell their stuff so they likely wouldn't buy them or would remove the listing in the case of eBay.

Also goes to show how this world is. Mein Kampf by Hitler...completely fine. Religious books by a guy who fell into sin towards the end of his life, BURN 'EM ALL!!!!!!

 

[Desk trauma]

You could sell them, but I think I read somewhere that a lot of booksellers, eBay, and other places were refusing to sell their stuff so they likely wouldn't buy them or would remove the listing in the case of eBay.

Over 1,000 results on an amazon, over 1,300 on ebay. Better luck next time on the persecution.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I have to say it. Christians who want to stone Ravi after his death should read and understand this story.
John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

 

[JSRG]

You could sell them, but I think I read somewhere that a lot of booksellers, eBay, and other places were refusing to sell their stuff so they likely wouldn't buy them or would remove the listing in the case of eBay.

Also goes to show how this world is. Mein Kampf by Hitler...completely fine. Religious books by a guy who fell into sin towards the end of his life, BURN 'EM ALL!!!!!!

A search on both Amazon and eBay shows his books are still being sold on both.

As for Mein Kampf, whatever one thinks of the morality of its contents, the book does have considerable historical importance. Though it was banned in Germany until 2016 (after Hitler's death, the copyright ended up defaulting to the Bavarian government, which refused to allow it to be printed in Germany; once the copyright expired, people could start publishing it again).

 

[spiritfilledjm]

A search on both Amazon and eBay shows his books are still being sold on both.

As for Mein Kampf, whatever one thinks of the morality of its contents, the book does have considerable historical importance. Though it was banned in Germany until 2016 (after Hitler's death, the copyright ended up defaulting to the Bavarian government, which refused to allow it to be printed in Germany; once the copyright expired, people could start publishing it again).

That's good to know. I was going off of information that came out shortly after the accusations were made and the findings by the investigators hired by his former ministry team found them to be likely true, so it was, admittedly, out of date.