Rationality of choice

[elcapitan]

Dude, that was seriously uncalled for

A kind and peaceful Christian is better than a snide and mocking atheist any day, and vice versa

Your're right, I went too far. I've changed my post . Sorry.

P.S. Don't assume I'm an athiest. I meant to criticize a certain mentality, not Christianity or Christian beliefs in general.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

It's no problem, I just get really antsy when people turn these things into verbal fistfights

 

[redmartian89]

That's the best you can think of ??? Dude!! Come on, this is really now talking out of the a$$. The reason I posted the question in the "philosophy" section is because I assumed participants here provide at least one level of argument for why they think a specific way. Please consider posting your feelings somewhere else, or give them some rational meat.

I was trying here, ok. Finding objective, rational purposes is a little bit tough for me. It basically boils down to the fact that gay couples do not produce children. If I'm missing something obvious, point it out.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I have no reason why I should trust your life and wisdom from it.

I never asked you to. I'm simply putting forth my theory.

If you don't agree or like what I say, say so.
If you see problems in my logic, identify them.

There are plenty of crackpots here with original theories. How do I know you're not one of them?

Haha, you'll never know!!!

I relied on my intuitive statistical inference - I never met a gay man who would be saying things you do.

You wouldn't meet anyone saying the stuff I say.

If you are gay, you're a unique and interesting case indeed.

Damn straight I am! (no pun intended) I am a very unique individual, no matter what standard you use.

I still don't get it. Are you telling me that my sexual preference is different from my lust or curiosity?

Yes.

Sexuality and sexual orientation are in themselves 2 distinct concepts.

Sexuality is actually who you sleep with, like a history.

Sexual orientation is who you like to sleep with.

A "gay" or "straight" person is who they like to and actually sleep with.

Experiments simply add to the history, not confirm/dispell their orientation.

If you like to think of sleeping with men, but havn't done so, I would not call you gay simply on that. Same with thinking of girls.

If you act on your feelings toward sleeping with men, and found pleasure in it, you will have a homosexual sexual history, and thus be "gay".

Sexual orientation does NOT imply sexual behavior.

Virgins still have an orientation, but don't know sexuality until they actually get the experience.

Sexuality needs experience. Feelings don't.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I have an honest question to all people who consciously chose to be Christians but who don't believe that some of us didn't choose to be gay. I'm sorry, I didn't realize there were already so many posts on homosexuality, but I was always wondering.....

You chose to believe somebody's testimony from over 2000 years ago of something that is unheard of, from somebody you never met and never talked to. And yet, when I tell you in person (among thousands of others like me) that I did not choose to be gay, you don't believe me.

I don't understand this rationality. I mean a rational person assigns credence to a belief that has more likelyhood, right? What is more likely to you, a second hand story from a few folks that a dead person became alive again (something physically impossible to the best of our knowledge) or first hand information about somebody's conscious choice of their sexual preference? I understand some things have to be taken by faith, without such rationality. Then why can't you take by faith what I tell you about my choice? How did the gospels (and who wrote them) establish credibilty a priori, the priviledge I seem to be denied? Please explain.

DJP

To ignore all other post, I will show my reasoning here or why people do such. Simply, many people believe they chose to be heterosexual. Therefore, believing you requires them to go against their internal belief. But for whatever reason, believing the testimony of a 2000 year old man does not go against their internal beliefs.

 

[DJPavel]

I think too many people assume that scripture infallible, and so assume any evidence that contradicts it to be wrong a priori. If you take this view you're basically saying that your experience and observation of the real world is less valid than statements someone wrote down 2000 years ago. There's no way to check if you're wrong or adjust to experience and observation because you're already assuming that scripture is true no matter what.

Yep, which is unfortunate, I have a lot of Christian friends who are very good people, but who want to be very rational about their beliefs. I have a hard time convincing them that faith (belief system taken a priori) is irrational by definition. The only rationality in it is if you intentionally adopt the doctrine because it easily gives you comfort, purpose in life, and a piece of mind - something every human needs.

I grew up in a Communistic country and there was no doubt in my mind that everything I learnt about human nature and history was unshakingly true. To question Lenin or Marx was unthinkable, not because I was afraid of some kind of punishment, but because my brain was shaped by the ideology so much that to question its fundamental tenets was simply to question your own mental existence. Let's also not forget - the history is written by the winners. It is not possible to know the REAL story behind your ideology because the other sources are either eliminated or distorted. When the era of Communism was finally over and the scales fell off my eyes, I had to reconstruct the whole world in my mind, which is when I became sceptical about any source of knowledge....

Why am I saying all this? I see a lot of the same ideological culprits in the organized religion as I saw in Communism. Same appeal to emotions, same sense of ultimate purpose, same requirement to take some things by faith, reward & punishment system and so on. The organized religion has simply been more successful in its ideology, grew to a larger scale and has a lot of history behind itseld to back up its intimidating mechanism. It's actually amazing to compare the two.

I'm not trying to convince anybody to renounce their religion by any means, but my hope, since this is a philosophy forum, is that some individuals who consider themselves rational here will realize that their underlying assumptions in the arguments are based on an ideology taken for granted, not the Truth, the very notion created by the ideology in question. Did you notice every ideology has it its own Truth? Every time I question this truth, I get no reply back. Anyway, I think I've gone too far, is anybody still reading this? Did I mention this is a philosophy forum? I can talk here for hours, right?

DJP

 

[DJPavel]

Simply, many people believe they chose to be heterosexual. Therefore, believing you requires them to go against their internal belief. But for whatever reason, believing the testimony of a 2000 year old man does not go against their internal beliefs.

I agree, it's really simple. My interpretation of the same opinion as yours is that we believe what we want to believe and what we want to believe is conditioned by our genetic make-up, parental and cultural conditioning with its inherited authorities (like the Bible). So, if you're born straight, feeling there is something wrong with homosexuals is quite understandable. Is it any different for other minorities? Now I don't want to generalize, there are VERY many of the majority folks who understand all of this. If it weren't for them, I don't think America would be as a great of a nation as it is today. After all, when the Jews were not popular in Germany, where did Einstein go?

I just wanted to keep my mind open and see any other possible reasons from believers in choice.

Thanks for the input.

DJPP.

 

[DJPavel]

I was trying here, ok. Finding objective, rational purposes is a little bit tough for me. It basically boils down to the fact that gay couples do not produce children. If I'm missing something obvious, point it out.

No, it's not obvious. If it were, we wouldn't be debating this . The gay couples dont have sex to produce children, they have sex because they are drawn (phisically and emotionally) toward each other. Even though this a minority case, why they are drawn to each other is yet to be explained. Until then, let's not forget that it is typical of a human mind to want to know the answers to everything now! And if you don't, you'll make one up. With that in mind, realize that you either have to admit you simply don't know why, or you made up the answer with your intuition because that's simply what you want to believe. Fair?

Sexuality and sexual orientation are in themselves 2 distinct concepts.

Sexuality is actually who you sleep with, like a history.

Sexual orientation is who you like to sleep with.

A "gay" or "straight" person is who they like to and actually sleep with.

Experiments simply add to the history, not confirm/dispell their orientation.

If you like to think of sleeping with men, but havn't done so, I would not call you gay simply on that. Same with thinking of girls.

If you act on your feelings toward sleeping with men, and found pleasure in it, you will have a homosexual sexual history, and thus be "gay".

Sexual orientation does NOT imply sexual behavior.

Virgins still have an orientation, but don't know sexuality until they actually get the experience.

Sexuality needs experience. Feelings don't.

Dude, this is really unnecessarily complicated, play of words, nothing really serious. I'd like to stick with the conventional definition of "gay" - you like the same sex, whether you actualize that or not. I sense you're saying it's OK to be attacted to the same sex, but NOT OK to actually have sex? Correct? Then my question would be, why? Please use any other argument besides "I feel so", as we feel differently.

 

[redmartian89]

Sure it's fair.

But answer me this:

If homosexuality is an inborn trait, how could a gay person live a somewhat normal family life- get married, have kids, and only come out at 40 or 50? Wouldn't there be some sign in their lives up to 'coming out' in middle age?

I see some people where ya see them and know. Right away, and without question. They have their lives set apart immediately. These ones ususally understand this early on and come out as a teen, but yet some others don't discover their 'true' sexuality until much later.

Why the difference?

And please don't use the 'society condemns it' excuse.

 

[IzzyPop]

Sure it's fair.

But answer me this:

If homosexuality is an inborn trait, how could a gay person live a somewhat normal family life- get married, have kids, and only come out at 40 or 50? Wouldn't there be some sign in their lives up to 'coming out' in middle age?

I see some people where ya see them and know. Right away, and without question. They have their lives set apart immediately. These ones ususally understand this early on and come out as a teen, but yet some others don't discover their 'true' sexuality until much later.

Why the difference?

And please don't use the 'society condemns it' excuse.

Why not? It is a perfectly valid excuse. Both of my parents are gay. They were raised in rural, Christian households where homosexuality was frowned upon, to say the least. My dad received a Master's degree in theology from a Baptist seminary. They both knew they were different from an early age and struggled with it for a few decades in the attempt to be 'normal'. Peer acceptance and the desire to not be an outcast is a pretty strong drive in most people.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Why not? It is a perfectly valid excuse. Both of my parents are gay. They were raised in rural, Christian households where homosexuality was frowned upon, to say the least. My dad received a Master's degree in theology from a Baptist seminary. They both knew they were different from an early age and struggled with it for a few decades in the attempt to be 'normal'. Peer acceptance and the desire to not be an outcast is a pretty strong drive in most people.

I would like to ask, are you speaking of just coming out, or of them realizing they were gay. I can understand that the social stigma can make one 'come out' until later in life (or at all), but I do not think that excuse will work concerning if they realize how they themselves are.

 

[telegram]

I would like to ask, are you speaking of just coming out, or of them realizing they were gay. I can understand that the social stigma can make one 'come out' until later in life (or at all), but I do not think that excuse will work concerning if they realize how they themselves are.

As far as those people realizing their sexuality, it's a matter of denial and supression in most cases. They would on one level know that something was different, but would look the other way or not look deeper into it and then try to rationalize it. In this society, you assume you're straight untill you fully realize you're not. It's different for everyone. It' all apart of growing and self-discovery.

 

[IzzyPop]

I would like to ask, are you speaking of just coming out, or of them realizing they were gay. I can understand that the social stigma can make one 'come out' until later in life (or at all), but I do not think that excuse will work concerning if they realize how they themselves are.

I understand where the confusion may lie. You must realize that to even admit to yourself that you are gay takes quite a bit of mental and emotional fortitude. You are acknowledging that you are different from around 90% of the rest of the population on a fundamental level.

Think about how people strive to fit in on a purely superficial level. Think fashion, TV shows people watch, slang expressions, or anything else faddish. Now dig a bit deeper and think about how hard it would be to not fit in not because of what you do or what choices you make, but because of who you are. Homosexuals are still relegated to an outcast status in much of today's world. It was even worse 35-40 years ago when my parents were struggling with it. I have family that I have not seen in 20 odd years because of their religious hatred towards homosexuality. My father was kicked out of school and the only way they allowed him to even keep his Master's degree was to promise never to preach as long as he was a practicing homosexual.

That is not to say that they didn't know where their orientation lied, they just denied it to themselves and others for years, thinking that if they lived a 'normal' life they would be 'normal'. It doesn't work.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

I just can't help but laugh at a gay man and woman getting married
The irony tickles my funny bone

 

[IzzyPop]

I just can't help but laugh at a gay man and woman getting married
The irony tickles my funny bone

Yep. A failed marriage and the resulting trauma inflicted upon their children is hysterical.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Whoa whoa, no need to guilt trip me
I was talking about that specific thing, geese
Now I feel all bad T_T

 

[DJPavel]

Sure it's fair.

But answer me this:

If homosexuality is an inborn trait, how could a gay person live a somewhat normal family life- get married, have kids, and only come out at 40 or 50? Wouldn't there be some sign in their lives up to 'coming out' in middle age?

I see some people where ya see them and know. Right away, and without question. They have their lives set apart immediately. These ones ususally understand this early on and come out as a teen, but yet some others don't discover their 'true' sexuality until much later.

Why the difference?

And please don't use the 'society condemns it' excuse.

I'm not going to use an excuse, I'm going to give you a reason - and the reason is precisely that - society condemns it. When I was growing up in my homeland, I pretty much concluded that I was a freak with no future in this life and I should go live with vampires in the woods. When I came to the US (to one of the liberal states), I realized it's not me who is a freak, it's the people around me who were making me one. The experience of being around non-prejudiced and open minded folks was very liberating and enlightening. I never came out to anybody in my homeland, but I did to most in the US. By your logic, it means that I didn't discover my true sexuality until I crossed the ocean - it's either some gay vibes affected me on the plane or the Americans perverted me. By my logic, you have no clue of what it's like being gay - I always was what I am now and the reason I was not coming out back home was because I didn't want to lose my friends, possibly my family and simply being disrespected by peers.

I think you might be confusing being gay with being married. Studies show that when you first fall in love, levels of serotonin go down and the brain's reward centres are flooded with dopamine. After a few years, the hormone levels go back to normal and a lot of folks find it difficult to sustain that love that they used to have. They're starting to cheat and have all kinds of issues. Now, while I still don't know the origin of "gay", there is no evidence that suggests that I become a homosexual simply by a change in some hormone level well into my midlife, the point where you suggest some people discover their true sexuality. And as far as my personal experience goes, I remember being gay even before I knew what that meant. I have gone through a lot of homonal changes since that - and guess what - I'm as gay as ever. This of course makes sense if you trust the scientfic research as opposed to other sources

DJP

 

[Emmy]

Dear DJPavel. I have always tried to ignore questions about homosexuality, but I would like to say something,too. I do not know whether it is something men, or women, are born with, or wether it is freely chosen. I know, however, that God is our Judge, and we must love the sinner, and hate the sin. God can see our hearts and every thought, He knows all our sins, as well as our strivings to be as God wants us to be. God`s Holy Law will reward, as well as give consequences. We are in charge of our actions, we have free will to do what we want, but everything has its price. I say this humbly and kindly, DJPavel, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.