Rational Response Squad

[HumanisticJones]

Hey, more power to you. I'm sure I agree with you guys on numerous issues, but I guess it's just not my style.

Rock on with your style then! Everyone making their own decisions on how to be a non-believer is a wonderful thing.

 

[Savage78]

Rock on with your style then! Everyone making their own decisions on how to be a non-believer is a wonderful thing.

Well said.

 

[sheatrader]

After read several of the posts in this thread from RRS members, I take away that RRS members think their Atheism is not a religion. Anytime I here this kind of an argument, I know that the person making this argument is not grasping the full scope of their own thinking.

A religion can be defined as being composed of statements in the following three categories. At least one statement of belief in each category must be a statement that cannot be "proved" and hence are faith statements. These three categories are:

1. God
2. Life
3. Man

Now, lets apply this to atheism:

1. atheism says that God does not exist.
   1. To says that God does not exist is a faith statement.
2. atheism says that there is not life after death, or that the life after death has no bering on this life.
   1. Again, these are both faith statements.
3. Atheism says that man is nothing more than a big accident. Man has no soul.
   1. Again, saying man has no soul is a faith statement.

Hence, since Atheism make faith statements about the three central categories needed to have a religion, Atheism is a religion!

Now, for any Atheists who wish to take issue with what I claim are central tenets of Atheism, please do so, buy also show that your correction is not a faith statement.

Conclusion: All men have beliefs in these three areas. Your beliefs are faith beliefs, so what ever you call yourself, you have a religion. The difference between the Christian and the Atheist, is that the Christian is honest about what they say is by faith.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Actually the two things that worry me have been posted in this thread.

The only sin is denying progress:

We see religion as archaic and something that slows down the development of the human society.

and of course the old we are justified because this is only defense:

Christians have declared war on us, and called for a return to fundamentalist religion. We're simply responding.

 

[Savage78]

After read several of the posts in this thread from RRS members, I take away that RRS members think their Atheism is not a religion.

No it isnt. The definition of religion is:

re·li·gion

/rɪˈlɪdʒ

ən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-lij-uh

n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Atheists do not have a set of beliefs, just the knowledge that the god myth is contradictory and illogical. They also know that no evidence exists for any god myth so they state that in the absence of evidence it is logical to say that god as defined by the religious does not exist.

We say that in the absence of evidence that there is no superhuman/supernatural deity.

We have no set beliefs and hold no devotional observance of anything. The world view of two atheists can differ completely.

Anytime I here this kind of an argument, I know that the person making this argument is not grasping the full scope of their own thinking.

This shows that you do not understand what an atheist is.

A religion can be defined as being composed of statements in the following three categories. At least one statement of belief in each category must be a statement that cannot be "proved" and hence are faith statements. These three categories are:

1. God
2. Life
3. Man

Now, lets apply this to atheism:

1. atheism says that God does not exist.
   1. To says that God does not exist is a faith statement.

This is false, it is the absence of evidence that show that no god exists.

atheism says that there is not life after death, or that the life after death has no bering on this life.

1. Again, these are both faith statements.

Atheists say that there is no evidence of any deity, therefore no afterlife exists.

A question where exactly is this afterlife?

Atheism says that man is nothing more than a big accident. Man has no soul.

1. Again, saying man has no soul is a faith statement.

1. Again there is no evidence for a soul.

A further question...where is the soul located?

Hence, since Atheism make faith statements about the three central categories needed to have a religion, Atheism is a religion!

See the begining of this post, where we defined what religionis according to the dictionary.

Now, for any Atheists who wish to take issue with what I claim are central tenets of Atheism, please do so, buy also show that your correction is not a faith statement.

I have shown that it is absence of evidence that makes the statements, not faith.

Conclusion: All men have beliefs in these three areas. Your beliefs are faith beliefs, so what ever you call yourself, you have a religion. The difference between the Christian and the Atheist, is that the Christian is honest about what they say is by faith.

Not the atheist. I will try and bring aboard more people that have more knowledge on the matter to debate you.

 

[christalee4]

Am I the only non-fundie slightly uncomfortable about these guys?

http://www.rationalresponders.com

I understand that some will tell me that these guys are part of the latest "outdo them all" sensationalistic deals. They remind me of the 700 Club only dealing the other way, that God does not exist.

Another thing that gets me uneasy is that they seem to ONLY want to go after Christianity. Why not other religions, especially the other more well-known religions like Islam, Scientology, and Buddhism?

Like "Battlecry" and so many organizations that focus on Christian obedience, they probably are adopting some of their tactics on the internet. But they don't have the sizeable back-up and money to really do anything significant. Like many websites, it looks good, but doesn't really pan out in reality.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

And your resident ancient text expert, has a wish list at Amazon.com for vital thesis research?

What exactly does Darth_Josh the Sith Lord, add to your "Think Tank" ?

It's nice that you've decided to employ ad hominem attacks and lump us all together.
I'm sure the hundreds of atheists who post there all stand for the exact same principles and think the exact same things.

 

[levi501]

After read several of the posts in this thread from RRS members, I take away that RRS members think their Atheism is not a religion. Anytime I here this kind of an argument, I know that the person making this argument is not grasping the full scope of their own thinking.

A religion can be defined as being composed of statements in the following three categories. At least one statement of belief in each category must be a statement that cannot be "proved" and hence are faith statements. These three categories are:

1. God
2. Life
3. Man

Now, lets apply this to atheism:

1. atheism says that God does not exist.
   1. To says that God does not exist is a faith statement.
2. atheism says that there is not life after death, or that the life after death has no bering on this life.
   1. Again, these are both faith statements.
3. Atheism says that man is nothing more than a big accident. Man has no soul.
   1. Again, saying man has no soul is a faith statement.

Hence, since Atheism make faith statements about the three central categories needed to have a religion, Atheism is a religion!

Now, for any Atheists who wish to take issue with what I claim are central tenets of Atheism, please do so, buy also show that your correction is not a faith statement.

Conclusion: All men have beliefs in these three areas. Your beliefs are faith beliefs, so what ever you call yourself, you have a religion. The difference between the Christian and the Atheist, is that the Christian is honest about what they say is by faith.

lol, you have no idea what an atheist is. You're embarrassing yourself. I'm surprised you left out that they eat babies as well.

 

[Harpuia]

You know... I just wanted to know what the RRS was, and why they kinda make me feel uncomfortable.

Now that I know what they are, I'm still not comfy about 'em, but at least I understand what and who they are and what they do, and I feel okay about it. So...

...why are we straying off topic?

 

[SallyNow]

I'm from the RRS as well.

It's not that we're against christians more so than any other religion it's just that we come across christianity much more often, and it makes sense to start with what you know.

Many of us are ex-christians, have knowledge of the church, bible, doctrines, ect.

" I'm still not a big fan on declaring "war" on anything."

Christians have declared war on us, and called for a return to fundamentalist religion. We're simply responding.

Excuse me, but Christians as a whole have not declared a current "war on atheists". Many fundementalist groups in the USA have waged war on athiests, and have tried to push silly things, like YECism being taught in science classes and warning labels on textbooks. But these fundementalists do not represent Christianity as a whole - they do not even represent a majority of Christians in the USA.

What makes RSS a little out-there is their declaration that another group is mentally ill. This sort of assertion is dangerous and useless. It is just as dangerous and uselss as fundementalists who state that atheists are mentally ill. It doesn't get anyone anywhere, it just starts arguments, not debates.

I must ask, what about us worries you. It's not like we have a legal lobby like the FFRF. We are just out their pushing back with our own arguments, nothing wrong with that is there?

As for why we're after Christianity so hard instead of the others? I don't see Buddhism or Scientology making laws for all of us using their religion as the sole justification. They aren't trying to hijack science education to force in "equal time" for the theories on Xenu and the Galactic federation or put warning labels on psychology books in our classrooms claiming "This book contains information on Psychology, which is only an evil tool used by Lord Xenu. Reading and believing this may keep you from attaining OT3".

There are some way out there religions compared to Christianity, but we have to deal with the one that's in our face and not the ones that are just in the tabloids.

Again, it is only a small percentage of Christians who are doing any of this hijacking of science and social science. Those people are doing something wrong, and a lot of more moderate Christians speak out against the hijacking of science, the denial of climate change, the hatred of psychology, the legistlating of morality.

Also, declaring theism a mental disorder without proper studies indicating such is disrespectful of the science psychology.

All that being said, we all have freedom of thought and freedom of speech, so RRS can speak their mind. Others may not agree with it, but no one has the right to stop the freedom of speech that RRS has.

Of course, if RRS starts picking up tactics from the very conservative Christian lobby groups in the USA - such as legislating against other beliefs (or lackthereof) or attmepting to declare certain things mental disorders, or using unproven techniques of "repartive therapy" then there'd be a problem... but right now, they are just disagreeing with theism, and that's legal.

 

[marblehead]

After read several of the posts in this thread from RRS members, I take away that RRS members think their Atheism is not a religion. Anytime I here this kind of an argument, I know that the person making this argument is not grasping the full scope of their own thinking.

A religion can be defined as being composed of statements in the following three categories. At least one statement of belief in each category must be a statement that cannot be "proved" and hence are faith statements. These three categories are:

1. God
2. Life
3. Man

Now, lets apply this to atheism:

1. atheism says that God does not exist.
   1. To says that God does not exist is a faith statement.
2. atheism says that there is not life after death, or that the life after death has no bering on this life.
   1. Again, these are both faith statements.
3. Atheism says that man is nothing more than a big accident. Man has no soul.
   1. Again, saying man has no soul is a faith statement.

Hence, since Atheism make faith statements about the three central categories needed to have a religion, Atheism is a religion!

Now, for any Atheists who wish to take issue with what I claim are central tenets of Atheism, please do so, buy also show that your correction is not a faith statement.

Conclusion: All men have beliefs in these three areas. Your beliefs are faith beliefs, so what ever you call yourself, you have a religion. The difference between the Christian and the Atheist, is that the Christian is honest about what they say is by faith.

Nice strawman!

 

[Savage78]

lol, you have no idea what an atheist is. You're embarrassing yourself. I'm surprised you left out that they eat babies as well.

You mean we dont?!?!?!?

*puts baby down*

 

[sheatrader]

Thank you Savage78 for your response. You at least you gave an answer to my challenges as opposed to levi501 or marblehead who essentially resorted to name calling. Although I do take marblehead's comment as a compliment. A straw man argument is only a straw man if the analogy fails to capture the essence of the issues.


What I have given here is not a definition, but rather a model. The model ends up defining a religion, but is itself not a definition. I find that Atheists like to hide behind a very superficial definition of religion. Any dictionary definition is only a starting place with regard to religion. To say, like the RRS web site says (1), that since by definition religion has x, y, and z components, and since we as atheists do not have these, then we do not have religion is hiding behind the definition and has no value. This is the straw man argument. Religion does not need to have rituals like we see in the mainstream religions, or social coherence to be a valid religion. Religion is much deeper and much more than the window dressing we see on TV. The robes that some Christian ministers/priests wear, the staff and odd looking things that Catholic priests carry in public (no offense to Catholics please), or the stained glass windows in fancy church buildings, or the red dot that Hindus wear, or the army looking outfits that the Salvation Army people wear. These are all superficial. Religion is about life. Its about what each individual person believes about life. My model cuts through this crap and captures the essence of what a person really believes.


Now, Savage78, to say that you do no have a set of beliefs is a critical fallacy on your part. Let me use an example and then apply my model to it. Take for example a young man, lets say 18, who is a beach bum and has two goals in life: To surf and to have sex. What can we say about such a man? Lets say this man has spend very little if any time formally thinking about the issues of God, life and man. Does this person have any such beliefs? With regard to God, you could say that God is irrelevant to him. With regard to life, life is here for his pleasure. And with regard to man, he is the most important man as evident by his only focus being his pleasure. All of these are by faith. The way in which he lives his life and the choices he is making establishes the beliefs he has in each of these areas whether he like it or not or is even aware of it or not.


According to the RRS web site and from your comments (2), you seem to think that a person can come to rest in a state of unbelief. This simply is not possible. Life itself forces each and every person into some sort of belief system and this belief system is defined by the choices you make in life. You must make choices. It is very reasonable for a person to be in a state of transition with regard to their core beliefs, but it is not possible for a person to stay at a place of no beliefs their entire life. The very fact that you are living life forces you into beliefs about God, Life and Man. I am not saying that deep down you really believe in God, but rather that you have a set of beliefs about God, life, and man that are based on faith. And this set of beliefs forms the core of your religion.


Now on the issue of faith, the RRS web site sets up a strawman argument with regard to faith: “The way I understand and use the term, it means a belief in something either despite the lack of evidence for it or evidence against it.”(3) This is so easy to defeat. Does it take faith for a person to trust a doctor to cure their cancer? That would be yes! Is this a blind faith. No. Faith can be blind or it can have a foundation of evidence that supports the belief that the expected outcome will happen. There is much more to say on the issue of evidence which is beyond the scope of this post.


PS – I am only one man with a career and in the process of a career change and with a family. I think that its unfair to bring in a team of people to debate me. I simply will not have the time to respond to each and every counter. You will successfully overwhelm me. So do not expect me to respond to these challenges. As I have time I will contiue with you since you responded to me.




Notes:

1. “There are no rituals, social coherence, or beliefs at all.”
   www -- rationalresponders -- com/is_atheism_a_religion
2. “What the atheist does is reject the claim and lack belief in the gods the theists propose.”
   www -- rationalresponders -- com/is_atheism_a_religion
3. www -- rationalresponders -- com/is_atheism_a_religion

 

[Eudaimonist]

Now, for any Atheists who wish to take issue with what I claim are central tenets of Atheism, please do so, buy also show that your correction is not a faith statement.

The first correction is that positions on the existence of life after death and the soul have nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is only about the issue of the existence of God. Period.

As for the existence of God, it's really very simple. I do not assert as an article of faith that God doesn't exist. My position is instead that I don't have sufficient justification to conclude that God exists, and therefore there is no good reason for me to believe that God exists. This is a fully reasoned, not a faith-based, position.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[sheatrader]

...My position is instead that I don't have sufficient justification to conclude that God exists...

Mark,

This is a statement of faith. What every you accept or reject about the evidence as it applies to the existence of God at some point gets down to base assumptions that you hold as true. Since these are assumptions, what ever they may be, they are unprovable and are simply accepted. Hence, they are by faith.

You, Mark, are a person who has life. You are a man. Hence you have positons/beliefs of life and man. So, you have postions/beliefs on God, life and man and hence you have religion. It is your religion. It may be similar to others or may be very unique, but you have it, and it is by faith.

Steve

 

[Gipper]

Excuse me, but Christians as a whole have not declared a current "war on atheists". Many fundementalist groups in the USA have waged war on athiests, and have tried to push silly things, like YECism being taught in science classes and warning labels on textbooks. But these fundementalists do not represent Christianity as a whole - they do not even represent a majority of Christians in the USA.

That's a bit like saying that because Bush declared war on Iraq and most Americans are against the war means that America isn't at war with Iraq.

Christians who are not at war with atheism are merely submitting to worldly political correctness and do not see God's demands for what they are. God demands our worship and threatens harm to those who do not. Atheism put the wellbeing of our nation at risk by denying God.

If you don't believe me look at 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina. Where did these take place? New York Washington and New Orleans. The headquarters of Godlessness in America.

 

[HumanisticJones]

That's a bit like saying that because Bush declared war on Iraq and most Americans are against the war means that America isn't at war with Iraq.

Christians who are not at war with atheism are merely submitting to worldly political correctness and do not see God's demands for what they are. God demands our worship and threatens harm to those who do not. Atheism put the wellbeing of our nation at risk by denying God.

If you don't believe me look at 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina. Where did these take place? New York Washington and New Orleans. The headquarters of Godlessness in America.

Wow, so all those disasters are things I'm personally responsible for? Maybe I should apologize that my atheism and not a combination of meteorological events and structural flaws in a flood prevention system destroyed New Orleans. Maybe I should apologize that it was my non-belief that caused Muslim Extremists to attack two towers that I was nowhere near and not their hatred for free capitalistic society that is not bent to the will of the Koran.

No, on second though, I don't think I'm the cause, though I'm very sorry that you think that.

 

[SallyNow]

That's a bit like saying that because Bush declared war on Iraq and most Americans are against the war means that America isn't at war with Iraq.

The comparision isn't valid. A valid "patriotic" comparision would be a few small groups of vigilantes declaring war on, say, Iran... and then claiming that all of America was at war with Iran.

Christians who are not at war with atheism are merely submitting to worldly political correctness and do not see God's demands for what they are. God demands our worship and threatens harm to those who do not. Atheism put the wellbeing of our nation at risk by denying God.

No, Christians who are not at war with atheism are following the Golden Rule.

If you don't believe me look at 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina. Where did these take place? New York Washington and New Orleans. The headquarters of Godlessness in America.

9/11 was a group of vigilante terrorists. They chose where to do their killing.

Hurricane Katrina destroyed the residential parts of New Orleans - churches, homes, schools - yet left the French Quarter (where most of the parties happen) unscathed.
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[Savage78]

Thank you Savage78 for your response. You at least you gave an answer to my challenges as opposed to levi501 or marblehead who essentially resorted to name calling. Although I do take marblehead's comment as a compliment. A straw man argument is only a straw man if the analogy fails to capture the essence of the issues.

By that token, your argument is a straw man.

What I have given here is not a definition, but rather a model. The model ends up defining a religion, but is itself not a definition. I find that Atheists like to hide behind a very superficial definition of religion. Any dictionary definition is only a starting place with regard to religion.

No a dictinary is the definition as agreed upon by the general public...you have taken that definition and twisted it to suit your argument.

To say, like the RRS web site says (1), that since by definition religion has x, y, and z components, and since we as atheists do not have these, then we do not have religion is hiding behind the definition and has no value.

The definition only has no value to you, religion is clearly defined and is the accepted definition in dictionaries...or do we just go about changing the definitions to suit our own purpose.

Here let me give you an example:

You are a lovely person.

Now I have said that...I am not using definitions set out in a dictionary, guess what i really said according to my definitions of these words?

This is the straw man argument. Religion does not need to have rituals like we see in the mainstream religions, or social coherence to be a valid religion.

Every xtian that says amen after prayer is practicing a ritual.

Religion is much deeper and much more than the window dressing we see on TV. The robes that some Christian ministers/priests wear, the staff and odd looking things that Catholic priests carry in public (no offense to Catholics please), or the stained glass windows in fancy church buildings, or the red dot that Hindus wear, or the army looking outfits that the Salvation Army people wear. These are all superficial. Religion is about life. Its about what each individual person believes about life. My model cuts through this crap and captures the essence of what a person really believes.

Your model is not the standard accepted definition. Therefore carries no weight.

Now, Savage78, to say that you do no have a set of beliefs is a critical fallacy on your part.

I do not have beliefs, I have a moral code that is not a belief that is a fact, based on facts.

Let me use an example and then apply my model to it. Take for example a young man, lets say 18, who is a beach bum and has two goals in life: To surf and to have sex. What can we say about such a man?

He has a good life.

Lets say this man has spend very little if any time formally thinking about the issues of God, life and man. Does this person have any such beliefs? With regard to God, you could say that God is irrelevant to him. With regard to life, life is here for his pleasure. And with regard to man, he is the most important man as evident by his only focus being his pleasure. All of these are by faith.

No not by faith, by simple experience and evidence.

The way in which he lives his life and the choices he is making establishes the beliefs he has in each of these areas whether he like it or not or is even aware of it or not.

What is the accepted definition of belief?

According to the RRS web site and from your comments (2), you seem to think that a person can come to rest in a state of unbelief.

Thats true, I rest in a state of disbelief, as do many atheists.

This simply is not possible.

I am here therefore it is possible.

Life itself forces each and every person into some sort of belief system and this belief system is defined by the choices you make in life. You must make choices. It is very reasonable for a person to be in a state of transition with regard to their core beliefs, but it is not possible for a person to stay at a place of no beliefs their entire life.

I see what you are saying, but there is no faith needed for my core morals..everything is based on evidence and fact.

The very fact that you are living life forces you into beliefs about God, Life and Man. I am not saying that deep down you really believe in God, but rather that you have a set of beliefs about God, life, and man that are based on faith. And this set of beliefs forms the core of your religion.

I have no belief about god, what I KNOW, not what I believe is that there is no emperical evidence for god, therefore there is no god.

None of that is faith, there is no pink unicorn in my ear, because there is no evidence. No faith or belief required.

Now on the issue of faith, the RRS web site sets up a strawman argument with regard to faith: “The way I understand and use the term, it means a belief in something either despite the lack of evidence for it or evidence against it.”(3) This is so easy to defeat. Does it take faith for a person to trust a doctor to cure their cancer? That would be yes! Is this a blind faith. No. Faith can be blind or it can have a foundation of evidence that supports the belief that the expected outcome will happen. There is much more to say on the issue of evidence which is beyond the scope of this post.

Strawman.

PS – I am only one man with a career and in the process of a career change and with a family. I think that its unfair to bring in a team of people to debate me. I simply will not have the time to respond to each and every counter. You will successfully overwhelm me. So do not expect me to respond to these challenges. As I have time I will contiue with you since you responded to me.

Nice copout there. Well when you are ready to continue this debate with whoever comes at you, then we will continue. I think that this is very intellectually dishonest. I will bring in a team to defend the fact that there is no faith in atheism, because they will have moreinformation for you and really blast away your misconception about atheism....your choice, you want to continue or not, if you do i am bringing in a few people to clear this misconception upfor you.

You also failed to answer my questions..like where exactly is the soul located and where exactly is this afterlife?

 

[loudatheist101]

Am I the only non-fundie slightly uncomfortable about these guys?

http://www.rationalresponders.com

I understand that some will tell me that these guys are part of the latest "outdo them all" sensationalistic deals. They remind me of the 700 Club only dealing the other way, that God does not exist.

Another thing that gets me uneasy is that they seem to ONLY want to go after Christianity. Why not other religions, especially the other more well-known religions like Islam, Scientology, and Buddhism?

I do love how their organazation does things like the Blasphemy Challenge and the Atheist Blood Drive on Prayer Day but, I do think they can become pretty radical, like saying "Jesus was never a man". I do support them however. The poster above is certainly correct. We are not declaring war on Christians, we are defending the Constitution and responding to fundies.