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Rational Response Squad

sheatrader

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If you are suggesting that I have already gone to exreem lengths to defend my postions, then would would disagree. I only have two or three posts that even touch the subject. The rest of my posts have been in dealing with side issues like this one. I did not inherit my Christian faith from my parents! I choose this in my early twenties. I have been a Christian as long as you have been alive and have put the Christian faith to the test many, many times. Again, this is a side issue and I will not deal with it again.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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If you are suggesting that I have already gone to exreem lengths to defend my postions, then would would disagree. I only have two or three posts that even touch the subject. The rest of my posts have been in dealing with side issues like this one. I did not inherit my Christian faith from my parents! I choose this in my early twenties. I have been a Christian as long as you have been alive and have put the Christian faith to the test many, many times. Again, this is a side issue and I will not deal with it again.
Hey, I appreciate that its easy to get frustrated in some threads, but please, I am NOT attacking you, so please don't respond to me as if I were.
 
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sheatrader

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Ok, I appologize for for my last quote comming accross as an attack. My frustration is comming from the seeming endless diversion to the central topic I posted. I would like to know what my background has to do with the discussion at hand. If I were raised in the Church and both my parents were devoted Christians, would that invalidate my arguments?
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Ok, I appologize for for my last quote comming accross as an attack. My frustration is comming from the seeming endless diversion to the central topic I posted. I would like to know what my background has to do with the discussion at hand. If I were raised in the Church and both my parents were devoted Christians, would that invalidate my arguments?
No... arguments are either valid or not, in and of themselves.

However, one's background can shed some light on why one believes invalid arguments... if you can see the difference
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Hence, since Atheism make faith statements about the three central categories needed to have a religion, Atheism is a religion!

Now, for any Atheists who wish to take issue with what I claim are central tenets of Atheism, please do so, buy also show that your correction is not a faith statement.

Conclusion: All men have beliefs in these three areas. Your beliefs are faith beliefs, so what ever you call yourself, you have a religion. The difference between the Christian and the Atheist, is that the Christian is honest about what they say is by faith.
Well I would agree that atheism is a religious point of view, however, using the word "religion" to refer to atheism isn't quite so straight forward... religion has all sorts of associated baggage, and whether or not you do yourself, there are many Christians who like to represent atheism as a CHURCH type of religion... and I can understand why atheists rail against that.

If it isn't your intention to imply that atheism is a religion in the same way that Catholicism is a religion, well then yeah, I agree with you. I think its your choice of phrase that could be better.

Of course, if you are one of these people who makes statements like "Atheism is a religion and Darwin is its false prophet"... well, then I have less respect for your position
 
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sheatrader

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Well I would agree that atheism is a religious point of view, however, using the word "religion" to refer to atheism isn't quite so straight forward... religion has all sorts of associated baggage, and whether or not you do yourself, there are many Christians who like to represent atheism as a CHURCH type of religion... and I can understand why atheists rail against that.

If it isn't your intention to imply that atheism is a religion in the same way that Catholicism is a religion, well then yeah, I agree with you. I think its your choice of phrase that could be better.

Of course, if you are one of these people who makes statements like "Atheism is a religion and Darwin is its false prophet"... well, then I have less respect for your position
I have been trying to boil religion down to its basic components and show that each and every person has some kind of a "religion" and defined by the model I have been trying to use. I am certinally NOT trying to say that Athiests pursue Athiesm as a religion like Christians persue Christianity. There are, and expected to be, significant differences between and Athiest and a Christian approches life. They are very different would views. The mistake that I see Atheists making is what appears to me to be a view that Athiests do not have faith. No one knows all things. Each of us must hold some things as true without proof. Its in these things that faith comes from. Athiests have these every bit as much as anyone else. Yuo cannot live your life without faith. Therefore, the Athiest has religion, just like everyone else does.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I have been trying to boil religion down to its basic components and show that each and every person has some kind of a "religion" and defined by the model I have been trying to use. I am certinally NOT trying to say that Athiests pursue Athiesm as a religion like Christians persue Christianity. There are, and expected to be, significant differences between and Athiest and a Christian approches life. They are very different would views. The mistake that I see Atheists making is what appears to me to be a view that Athiests do not have faith. No one knows all things. Each of us must hold some things as true without proof. Its in these things that faith comes from. Athiests have these every bit as much as anyone else. Yuo cannot live your life without faith. Therefore, the Athiest has religion, just like everyone else does.
I see what our saying... but I can also see why people would have a problem with it.

Atheists certainly have a place in the religious spectrum, and a religious point of view...

ALL humans live life with certin things taken on faith... every step you take is based on a "faith" that gravity will work the same way eact time you do it.

But as I said before, i think what atheists rail against are religious people who try to tell atheists that atheism is a religion in the same sense that Christianity is a religion... and it isn't.

Yes, Atheism rests on certain tennets that are a matter of faith... but then so does science and mathematics... so atheism is only a relgion in the same respect that mathematics is a religion... they both have a faith component at their core, however, they are not a religion in the same way that a RELIGION is...

make any sense?
 
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sheatrader

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Yes, Atheism rests on certain tennets that are a matter of faith... but then so does science and mathematics... so atheism is only a relgion in the same respect that mathematics is a religion... they both have a faith component at their core, however, they are not a religion in the same way that a RELIGION is...

make any sense?

I agree that Atheism takes things on faith. The mistake I s ee in your argument is that life is not the same thing as mathematics or science. Even though math can get extreemly complext, as well as science, these do not, in and of themselves, speak to the meaning of life. Who am I? What am I? Why this world? etc... Each and evey person who has reach a mature level in life is confonted with these questions, and will give answers to these questions by the choices they make in life.

Make sense?
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I agree that Atheism takes things on faith. The mistake I s ee in your argument is that life is not the same thing as mathematics or science. Even though math can get extreemly complext, as well as science, these do not, in and of themselves, speak to the meaning of life. Who am I? What am I? Why this world? etc... Each and evey person who has reach a mature level in life is confonted with these questions, and will give answers to these questions by the choices they make in life.

Make sense?
I don't think atheism speaks to the meaning of life either... you can still have quite exquisite philosophies about the meaning of life and still be an atheist
 
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quatona

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I am unconvinced by your reasons. If I am tired of responding to a particular argument which I have responded to a "thousand times", and I am convinced that there is no opportunity for a deeper discourse, then there is no emotional impact on me. I have no motivation to respond. Your shortness suggests that there was an emotional impact on you. In my opinion, the two don't jive.
I didn´t say there was no emotional response. I said that responding that way was unreasonable, and that means emotions were involved. I said there was no motivation to hurt. It was the well-known spontaneous "oh, no! not that routine again." As I have also said earlier, it was not a good idea to respond that way, and that it would have been a better idea to ignore the post altogether. So, what do you think is left to say for me in this issue?
I wonder why you insist on this so much.
You did a lot of mind reading. I called you upon it. You agreed in that it was not a good idea. Case closed. I don´t ask you for your actual motives and emotions or something.
I made a post that didn´t give you anything to work from but a blanket refutation. You called me upon it. I agreed that it was not a good idea. What the heck is it with this inquisition?

My orriginal post did strike a cord with you to the point that it overcame the "incredible amount of time" you have spend dealing with people like me and the lack of a promise of s deeper discourse even though you have already responded "thousand times" before. That's a perrty big hill to overcome. So, what was that emotional response too? What was your reasons for your first post?
As stated above, boredom and frustration with facing the same old time and again.



You right on the surface. So far, there has not been enough good quality discusion to get deep. Buy that is not what I said. I said:

"...but no reponses yet have touched the depth to which this model reaches."
Well, what can I say? As far as I can see the model as presented has no particular depth and, naturally, my response cannot touch a depth that is beyond me. Communicate it in a way that makes me see depth in it and I will be able to touch it.

The depth has not yet been demonstrated. And at any rate, models in and of themselves don't have depth, they only provide a tool to go deep.
Agreed. I, however, don´t see anything in this model that promises to reach unknown depth.

I will lay out my model again in an additonal post. I have currently run out of time.
Good, maybe it helps me detect its potential. If it does I will be happy to respond, if it doesn´t I will ignore it. Ok?

PS - If I have not resonded to something in your previous post, that does not mean I'm in agreement with your view.
^_^:)
 
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PaddyJive

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There are two major reasons, why I refuse to assciociate myself with these people...

1) David Miller, participated in the YouTube "Blasphomy Challenge" and actually picked up a peice of feces with a bible. Brian Sapient, still refuses to take the video down. Thats not rational, it's sick.

2) Their resident "Ancient Manuscript and Biblical expert" has zero academic training in that feild. How can you bill yourself as an expert in a feild that requires so much training in dead languages and critical history? He's 24 years old? How much could he have learned from Barnes and Noble?

They do more harm then good. Hopefully, they sputter out and fade into the backround. They offer nothing useful to the discussion, what so ever.
 
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Savage78

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Savage78,

You have no ides what my parents told me or did not tell me. You have no ides what my upbring was like! So leave me parents out of it.

Atheism is a natural state. Everyone is born with no belief in fairies that create everything. Then you are taught that faries created the world and you and all that...a person whos parents are hindus will be hindu, a persons whose parents are brand x faries will be brand x faries...at least in the start of their lives.

So yes, did your parents teach you about whatever fairy you believe in?> If not who did and I will change this post to read more correctly.
 
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Savage78

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How is my upbrining and background relevant to the dicussion? I will say that I have never been an athiest. Is this what your are looking for?

Then you have no idea about being an atheist.

Will this give you enough reason to ignor my post and write me off rather than dealing with my arguments?


It has been dealt with, its a big strawman...nuff said.
 
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Savage78

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If you are suggesting that I have already gone to exreem lengths to defend my postions, then would would disagree. I only have two or three posts that even touch the subject. The rest of my posts have been in dealing with side issues like this one. I did not inherit my Christian faith from my parents! I choose this in my early twenties. I have been a Christian as long as you have been alive and have put the Christian faith to the test many, many times. Again, this is a side issue and I will not deal with it again.

that means that it is what you were taught, not some conclusion you came to on your own.
 
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