RAPTURED TO WHERE?

keras said:

That you are quite wrong is proved by how God's Throne can and has been seen by people standing on the earth. Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56.
If as you think the 144,000 and the vast multitude of Christians are all in heaven, it is on you to provide scriptures that say how and when they got there.

I have plenty that say God's holy people are in His holy Land.

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What both Ezekiel and Stephen saw was in the heavens, not on earth.

The 144,000 redeemed great multitude of the ages are before the throne. (Revelation 7:9)

The throne is in heaven. (Revelation 4:2)

It is on you to provide Scriptures that contradict Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 4:2.

jgr said:

What both Ezekiel and Stephen saw was in the heavens, not on earth.

The 144,000 redeemed great multitude of the ages are before the throne. (Revelation 7:9)

The throne is in heaven. (Revelation 4:2)

It is on you to provide Scriptures that contradict Revelation 7:9 and Revelation 4:2.

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From the sublime to the ridiculous! Ezekiel and Stephen were on earth.

Revelation 4:2 says John was in the Spirit, when he saw the visions he wrote in Revelation.
Revelation 7:9 doesn't say where the 144k and the vast multitude are, but we know from Rev 7:1-3, John was viewing an earthly scene.

They are all the Christian peoples, Jews and from every race, nation and language who will be the inhabitants of all the holy Land, during the end times.
The proof that the holy people of God are there then, is Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
Also Revelation 12:13-17, shows this, as the 'dragon' pursues them.

keras said:

That you are quite wrong is proved by how God's Throne can and has been seen by people standing on the earth. Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56.
If as you think the 144,000 and the vast multitude of Christians are all in heaven, it is on you to provide scriptures that say how and when they got there.

I have plenty that say God's holy people are in His holy Land.

Click to expand...

The questions that must be addressed are: are they literal Jews? Will there be exactly 144,000 of them sealed? Is this a symbolic number for the whole nation of Israel – 12 x 12,000? Is this a symbolic number of an untold amount of the elect of the nation Israel? Is this simply a symbolic depiction of the Church?

After revealing the defeat of the devil and his demons in Rev 12, and exposing the identity of the satanic trinity in Revelation 13, we see the victory of God’s people in Revelation 14 populating Mount Zion with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

We need to first establish the location that we are looking at tonight.

Where is this?

What is mount Sion today?

The only Mount Sion were dead believers go and worship the Lamb is heavenly Mount Zion. This is not an earthly scene, but heavenly!

The lamb

Repeated Scripture in Revelation shows the Lamb to be enthroned in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

keras said:

From the sublime to the ridiculous! Ezekiel and Stephen were on earth.

Revelation 4:2 says John was in the Spirit, when he saw the visions he wrote in Revelation.
Revelation 7:9 doesn't say where the 144k and the vast multitude are, but we know from Rev 7:1-3, John was viewing an earthly scene.

They are all the Christian peoples, Jews and from every race, nation and language who will be the inhabitants of all the holy Land, during the end times.
The proof that the holy people of God are there then, is Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
Also Revelation 12:13-17, shows this, as the 'dragon' pursues them.

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An acute case of premillennialitis.

The symbolic 144,000 OT and NT redeemed great multitude of the ages is before the throne. (Revelation 7:9)

The throne is in heaven. (Revelation 4:2)

Therefore the symbolic 144,000 OT and NT redeemed great multitude of the ages is in heaven, not on earth.

Awaiting your Scriptures which disprove those Scriptures.

jgr said:

Awaiting your Scriptures which disprove those Scriptures.

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Please tell us: where exactly is heaven?

sovereigngrace said:

We need to first establish the location that we are looking at tonight.
Where is this?
What is mount Sion today?

Click to expand...

Mount Zion - Wikipedia
Mount Zion is a hill in Jerusalem, located just outside the walls of the Old City. The term Mount Zion has been used in the Hebrew Bible first for the City of David ...
Elevation‎: ‎765 m (2,510 ft)
Location‎: ‎Jerusalem

Revelation 14:1 is referring to the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem. Psalms 2:6

sovereigngrace said:

Repeated Scripture in Revelation shows the Lamb to be enthroned in the heavenly Jerusalem.

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For now, yes; Jesus is in heaven.
But this is not forever. He will Return and reign from Mt Zion, in the new Temple.

keras said:

For now, yes; Jesus is in heaven.
But this is not forever. He will Return and reign from Mt Zion, in the new Temple.

Click to expand...

According to Scripture, we (the New Testament Church) currently inhabit true Zion/heavenly Jerusalem.

Jesus referred specifically to Psalm 118:22 when talking to the religious Jews of His day: “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:42-44).

Christ shows Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 28:16 to be messianic prophecies pertaining to Himself. By doing that, Christ was revealing the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament prophecies. One thing we should note as we consider Christ’s interpretation of this Old Testament passage is how He predicts the removal of Israel’s special place of favor among the nations (through their stubborn rebellion,) and the placing of God’s blessing upon the Gentile people (through their obedience). This is something that is seen in the various New Testament passages that refer to these Old Testament prophecies.

The issue at hand here is the fact there is more than just a natural Israeli application to Hebraic terms. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit repeatedly employs these appellations in a spiritual sense to describe the redeemed assembly – a company that includes countless Gentiles.

Psalm 118:22 tells us: “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.”

Christ showed the rejection of Himself, predicted in Psalm 118, related to the Jews rejecting Him during His earthly ministry. Even though “He came unto his own, and his own received him not” (John 1:11) Scripture makes clear: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12). Christ shows that the Gentiles would embrace Him and bring forth the necessary spiritual fruit that attends being true believers.

Isaiah 28:16 declares: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.”

This Messianic text shows us that Christ is located within Zion. He is a figurative “precious corner stone, a sure foundation” that has been laid in Zion. Those that embrace Him enter Zion – that spiritual place of rest and safety. The spiritual application is clear for all to see. Zion (Sion) represents the kingdom of God; it represents the heavenly realm. We see support for this in our Lord’s comments to the unbelieving Jews: “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

When the New Testament references these Old Testament prophecies and applies them to the new covenant era we see the spiritual sense of Zion (Sion) today. Zion/Sion in a New Testament sense is not a natural earthly location but a spiritual abode that the people of God enter. Christ is the cornerstone of a wider spiritual building located within Zion, which believers inhabit. It is a dwelling place that the Christ-rejecter cannot enjoy.

Romans 9:30-33 continues in the same vein: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

In the New Testament, Christ rules over spiritual Zion. All who embrace Him reside there and enjoy the spiritual blessings that accompanies intimacy with Him. Everything in both the Old and New Testament is pointing towards Jesus Christ. It is not about physical earthly land. It is not about the Middle East. It is not about a brick temple. It is about spiritual territory. It is about a heavenly kingdom. Earthly Zion means nothing today; heavenly Zion is everything. It is not about an earthly king, but rather a heavenly king. It is not about race; it is rather about grace.

“The stone which the builders rejected” (Psalm 118:22), “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence” (Isaiah 8:14) or the “stumblingstone” (Romans 9:32-33) within Zion (Sion) is Jesus Christ. Scripture shows us that the rejection of that figurative stone was the rejection of our Savior. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows natural Gentiles (heathens) accepting that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Natural Israel, on the other hand, is shown in Romans 9:31–32 to have stumbled at Christ the rock.

Romans 9:33 broadens Zion out to “whosoever believes in him shall not be ashamed.” This includes God’s people of all nationalities. Those who were hitherto aliens and strangers to Almighty God have now graciously “attained to righteousness” whereas natural Israel “hath not attained to the law of righteousness.” The spiritual application is obvious.

Albert Barnes explains: “This rock, designed as a corner stone to the Church, became, by the wickedness of the Jews, the block over which they fell into ruin.”

Through Calvary, the Gentile has been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. Gentile believers unite with Jewish believers in inhabiting Zion. Salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Romans 11:26, “all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”

Paul makes a slight alteration to Isaiah’s prophecy in order to show the fulfilment of this glorious prophecy. Instead of saying that the Redeemer would “come to Zion” he significantly says Christ would “come out of Sion.” Is there a reason for this? The reason for this significant amendment was obviously because this Old Testament prophecy was no longer unfulfilled but was perfectly fulfilled in Christ’s earthly ministry

Many Dispensationalists will highlight the last part of Romans 11:26, which promises unbroken favor upon ethnic Israelites, but seem to miss, ignore or conveniently overlook the actual company in view. It is not all natural Israelites. It is not an unqualified statement. Scripture is careful to attribute eternal favor to only those that are redeemed (whether Jew or Gentile). The reading outlines a conditional clause: “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.” “Sion” in reference to “Jacob” relates to the kingdom of God. Christ the Messiah (the deliverer) will come out from among true Israel, not natural Israel (Jacob).

1 Peter 2:3-11 adds further evidence to our enquiry: “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter does not limit Sion (Zion) to the natural Jews or to the physical nation of Israel, as modern-day Dispensationalists do. Quite the opposite! He shows Zion to be a spiritual place that all believers inhabit. God’s people are often referred to in Scripture in figurative terms. In this passage, they are specifically described in building terms. The Church is described as a spiritual structure incorporating spiritual building blocks – collectively known as His body – the temple. In 1 Peter 2:6, believers are described as being “lively stones” in God’s “spiritual house,” and as being a “holy priesthood” offering up “spiritual sacrifices.” This building is said to be located in “Zion,” with Christ as its “chief cornerstone.” These are the only sacrifices that are acceptable to God today.

The elect of God enter Zion upon salvation, as they embrace Christ. Peter describes Gods people as a “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” (1 Peter 2:5). Like Jesus teaching in Matthew 21:42-46, the nation mentioned is shown to be no ordinary earthly temporal carnal nation. No, but a sanctified spiritual community found throughout all nations. It is a spiritual nation that is positionally seated in heavenly places.

The believer is now seated in heavenly places spiritually – in the true Mount Zion. Why? Because Christ now reigns there on David’s throne. Those that have the “fear of the LORD is his treasure” and experience the “strength of salvation.” There is no need for some supposed future millennium, this age fulfils every heavenly requirement for the fulfilment of Christ’s kingly reign.

keras said:

Please tell us: where exactly is heaven?

Mount Zion - Wikipedia
Mount Zion is a hill in Jerusalem, located just outside the walls of the Old City. The term Mount Zion has been used in the Hebrew Bible first for the City of David ...
Elevation‎: ‎765 m (2,510 ft)
Location‎: ‎Jerusalem

Revelation 14:1 is referring to the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem. Psalms 2:6


For now, yes; Jesus is in heaven.
But this is not forever. He will Return and reign from Mt Zion, in the new Temple.

Click to expand...

Hebrews 12:18 supports this contention, saying, “For ye are not come [plural perfect active indicative] unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come [plural perfect active indicative] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. The mount that matter today is revealed as the heavenly Sion, not temporal and earthly Jerusalem. These references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

We see a clear unfolding pattern in the New Testament: physical Jerusalem is left rejected and abandoned by God, whereas, Zion is elevated and inhabited by the people of God. Heavenly Zion is shown to be the abode of the congregation of Jesus Christ. Both Jews and Gentiles today enter the heavenly Jerusalem upon salvation. This is the spiritual abode of the righteous. This is the fulfilment of the Old Testament type and shadow. This is the place of salvation for the righteous. The Holy Spirit defines Zion in such a way that contradicts the Dispensationalism understanding of it. We are clearly not looking at some physical city in the Middle East. We are looking at the heavenly abode where God’s people belong. The dead in Christ literally reside there now; living believers are spiritually seated there now.

When a man or woman gets saved, they automatically enter the kingdom by being “born from above” (John 3:3). They obtain heavenly citizenship. Philippians 3:20 tells us, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (NKJV). Through the new birth God has “raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6). He has “blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

Revelation 14:1-4 says, “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The first thing we note here is that it is speaking of the heavenly mount Sion. The second thing we note is that the 144,000 are “before the throne.” The third thing we note is that the 144,000 are the “redeemed from the earth.” This evidence proves that we are looking at the dead in Christ now in heavenly Jerusalem. The fourth thing we note is that this scene occurs well before the Second Advent not after. The fifth thing we see is that they are “the firstfruits unto God” not the last fruits as some would suggest.

Robertson’s Word Pictures attests: “Mount Zion is the site of the new city of God (Heb 12:22), the Jerusalem above (Gal 4:26), the seat of the Messianic Kingdom whether heaven or the new earth (Rev 21; 22). These victors have the name of the Lamb and God upon their foreheads as in Rev 3:12; Rev 22:4.”

Revelation 21:2-3, 9-14 says: “I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God … Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

The bride (“the Lamb’s wife”), is here identified with, or as, the new Jerusalem. Matthew Henry explains: “we have a large description of the church triumphant under the emblem of a city, far exceeding in riches and splendor all the cities of this world.”

It notably includes both the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles. This vividly reminds us of the unity and community of God’s people through the person and work of Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no separation. Both belong to the body of Christ. Both are the elect remnant of God. Both are God’s only bride. This descriptive passage confirms that the Old Testament faithful represented by “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel” enjoy equal status with the New Testament saints within the bride of Christ represented by “the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Here at the consummation, the people of God throughout all ages are united in Christ for all eternity. The new Jerusalem is not merely a physical place, it describes a spiritual people. We are looking at faithful Israel through the ages.

Speaking of the clear connection between the “new Jerusalem” and “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel,” John Gill tells us that this is “not literal, but mystical Israel, whom God has chosen to salvation, Christ has redeemed by his blood, and the Spirit calls by his grace; denoting that all, and each of these, have a right to enter into the new Jerusalem, and will be admitted there, and none but they.”

This is in keeping with the New Testament revelation of truth, which constantly shows an overlap between the Old Testament congregation of God and the New Testament one. That is why we have the Hebrew terms associated with the assembly of God under the new covenant.

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. Mount Zion in the Old Testament was a type of the true Mount Zion in glory. Jerusalem is the same. David’s throne also was a mere imperfect type of Israel's true heavenly king. The kings of Israel were a rebellious fleshly idea. However, God used them as a shadow of His heavenly kingship. Why would Christ yield to the permissive idea of man and reign in physical Jerusalem? He is reigning now on David’s throne (since the resurrection) in heaven.

Zion, therefore, today, in God’s eyes, is not a geographical place located in modern-day Jerusalem. It is a spiritual place that the people of God of all races inhabit when they get saved. The condition for experiencing Zion is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.

keras said:

Please tell us: where exactly is heaven?

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There is one immutable certainty:

It is not on earth.

Kris Jordan said:

Hi WailingWall,

We will be "with the Lord forever" -- He is in heaven now, then will reign on the earth (during the millennium), then will be in the new heaven and earth.

Here are a few verses for your reference:

• But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NASB)

• Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. John 14:1-3 (NASB)

• Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief... For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, 9-11 (NASB)
  
  
  
  
• Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Revelation 21:1-5 (NASB)
  

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Fantastically put. A majority of Christians believe that their spirits either will or will eventually go to heaven upon physical death to be with Christ because the Bible says so. Christ promises us a room in God the Fathers many mansions in the New Jerusalem. A city made by God for Gods people. It is there we will stay until Christ returns in which time our spirits will be reunited with our resurrected bodies. Then in our sinless bodies we will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. After the thousand years Satan will be defeated, the unrighteous dead raised and judged and God will create the New Heaven and New Earth for us where we will spend the rest of eternity planting vineyards and building houses and probably exploring the vast planet and universe that God has created for us.

jgr said:

There is one immutable certainty:

It is not on earth.

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But heaven is a spiritual place, in another dimension and is everywhere to us.
Do you have the childish idea the heaven is floating somewhere in outer space?

Jesus is in heaven now and yet He said: I will be with you until the end of time. Matthew 28:20

This truth shows the utter foolishness of the 'rapture' believers and the inability of you and many others to comprehend where the Christian people will be during the end times.

Neostarwcc said:

Fantastically put. A majority of Christians believe that their spirits either will or will eventually go to heaven upon physical death to be with Christ because the Bible says so. Christ promises us a room in God the Fathers many mansions in the New Jerusalem. A city made by God for Gods people. It is there we will stay until Christ returns in which time our spirits will be reunited with our resurrected bodies. Then in our sinless bodies we will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. After the thousand years Satan will be defeated, the unrighteous dead raised and judged and God will create the New Heaven and New Earth for us where we will spend the rest of eternity planting vineyards and building houses and probably exploring the vast planet and universe that God has created for us.

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Too bad that scripture doesn't actually say any of this fanciful story.
Only the New Jerusalem; that doesn't come until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

keras said:

But heaven is a spiritual place, in another dimension and is everywhere to us.
Do you have the childish idea the heaven is floating somewhere in outer space?

Jesus is in heaven now and yet He said: I will be with you until the end of time. Matthew 28:20

This truth shows the utter foolishness of the 'rapture' believers and the inability of you and many others to comprehend where the Christian people will be during the end times.

Click to expand...

How does Revelation 4:2 read?


And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

or

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set on earth, and one sat on the throne.


You stated previously, correctly, that the throne's location does not change.

Your acute premillenialitis has blinded you to plain unambiguous Scripture.

sovereigngrace said:

Zion, therefore, today, in God’s eyes, is not a geographical place located in modern-day Jerusalem. It is a spiritual place that the people of God of all races inhabit when they get saved. The condition for experiencing Zion is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.

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During this Church age, Zion - [metaphorically; our faith in Jesus] is both a spiritual way of life and a physical place.

The Temple Mount, Mount Zion; 2 Samuel 5:7, is still a location in Jerusalem. Your statement above is rather wacky.

sovereigngrace said:

They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

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Entry to the Kingdom and immortality, is a promise and is not a reality yet. John 3:16

The present ACTUAL reality, is that we live on earth and are almost at the point in time when the Lord will take action to correct the situation that is once again; as in the days of Noah.
Expect dramatic events and we must stand firm in our faith through all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

jgr said:

How does Revelation 4:2 read?


And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

or

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set on earth, and one sat on the throne.


You stated previously, correctly, that the throne's location does not change.

Your acute premillenialitis has blinded you to plain unambiguous Scripture.

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Very difficult to discuss issues with someone who misreads and misrepresents my posts.

I said the location of Revelation 7 events does not change. They are all on earth, as the first 3 verses make clear.
Rev 4 doesn't set the location for the events John saw. He was in heaven, but the visions were of earthly events.

Explain Matthew 28:20, or forever hold your peace.

WailingWall said:

Cant seem to find anywhere in scripture that we are goin to heaven after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Anyone?

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The dead in Christ are in heaven with Him. They have not been changed into immortality. This happens on judgment day when ALL will be resurrected. Some into everlasting life and others into contempt. Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth where there is no sun but only the Son who lights our new existence in the Kingdom of God where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is King. Those who are still alive will meet Him in the air and return to the new earth, The New Jerusalem.
Be blessed and stay Healthy!

Maria Billingsley said:

The dead in Christ are in heaven with Him. They have not been changed into immortality.

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A physical and Spiritual impossibility.

keras said:

A physical and Spiritual impossibility.

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Scripture?

keras said:

Very difficult to discuss issues with someone who misreads and misrepresents my posts.

I said the location of Revelation 7 events does not change. They are all on earth, as the first 3 verses make clear.
Rev 4 doesn't set the location for the events John saw. He was in heaven, but the visions were of earthly events.

Explain Matthew 28:20, or forever hold your peace.

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You said:

"NOWHERE does Rev 7 mention heaven. In fact that chapter sets the earthly scene in the first 3 verses.
It is never said to change location. Gods Throne can be seen from the earth, if He wills it."

Do you not believe that the Throne is part of the earthly scene?

Then if the earthly scene never changes location, neither does the Throne change location.

But Revelation 4:2 sets the location of the Throne as heaven, and thus all events that occur before it and around it also occur in heaven.

The word "throne" does not appear in Matthew 28:20, or anywhere in Matthew 28 at all.

Your acute premillennialitis continues to plague you.

Maria Billingsley said:

Scripture?

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The dead know nothing, they lie in their graves. Job 14:10, Isaiah 38:18,
All the humans who have ever lived will come out of their graves and stand before God on the last Day of mankind. Revelation 20:11-15, John 11:24

jgr said:

Then if the earthly scene never changes location, neither does the Throne change location.

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Heaven, the throne and God Himself are inseparable.
God has at times, allowed humans to see these things. Ezekiel 1 gave a vivid description and John saw the same scene in Revelation 4
It is prophesied that all the faithful Christian people, in the holy Land, will see it too. Revelation 7:9-12

Are you going to address Matthew 28:20? Or is that verse too damaging for your precious beliefs?

keras said:

Are you going to address Matthew 28:20? Or is that verse too damaging for your precious beliefs?

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Why not read the whole post?

Or does the blindness of acute premillenialitis preclude it?