rapture

apocolypticremedy999

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This is a frequently asked question. There will be something like a rapture, however it won't necessarily be quite like many people make it out to be. It will be something more like a remnant that will be gathered as the first fruits, which are spoken of in Revelation 14 and will be redeemed from the earth before the seven trumpets sound during the apocalypse. Prior to this; Christ will descend from heaven with a shout; and the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who remain on earth in Christ will rise to be with him in the air.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.:thumbsup:
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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This is a frequently asked question. There will be something like a rapture, however it won't necessarily be quite like many people make it out to be. It will be something more like a remnant that will be gathered as the first fruits, which are spoken of in Revelation 14 and will be redeemed from the earth before the seven trumpets sound during the apocalypse. Prior to this; Christ will descend from heaven with a shout; and the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who remain on earth in Christ will rise to be with him in the air.

There was already a resurrection of the firstfruits of Israel (man-child) when Jesus was resurrected, with Christ being the first of those firstfruits.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But the remnant of Israel(redeemed from among men) that remains and are caught up, are those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. But this event does not take place until the last trump is sounded.

The way you have it worded it sounded to me like you were saying prior to the sounding of the trumpets of God the Lord would descend.
 
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straydog

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.:thumbsup:

It does not say believers will be taken to heaven.

It Just says '' meet the Lord in the air''
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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It does not say believers will be taken to heaven.

It Just says '' meet the Lord in the air''

Heaven is the Lord's throne, and the earth is his footstool.

1 Kings 22:19
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

But no matter where the Lord is, there also we shall be.:thumbsup:
 
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straydog

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rapture. some say it wont happen some say yes. my take is it will but kindly tell how.

The rapture is false,as most Christians claim,they as believers,saints will be taken out of earth,but according to the Bible,the wicked are taken out - NOT THE RIGHTEOUS!

Matthew 13:40-43:40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Matthew 15:13:But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
 
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apocolypticremedy999

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There was already a resurrection of the firstfruits of Israel (man-child) when Jesus was resurrected, with Christ being the first of those firstfruits.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But the remnant of Israel(redeemed from among men) that remains and are caught up, are those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. But this event does not take place until the last trump is sounded.

The way you have it worded it sounded to me like you were saying prior to the sounding of the trumpets of God the Lord would descend.

No, upon reading Revelation 14 in context, we find that there are a total of at least 144,000 Israelites who will follow the Lamb of God wherever he goes before or during tribulation period.

When Christ's first resurrection occured, there were indeed some who were dead who came to life out of their sepulchres when he did, but they did not rise with him into heaven in his ascension, for there is no record of anyone rising with him, and it is said that the dead shall only rise at the end when they hear the voice of the Son of God sounding as the voice of the archangel. No one has been said to experience heaven in the presence of the Lord yet except only a select few who were chosen such as Moses, Elijah who was also John the baptist, possibly Melchizadec and a few others, that is all. But there are other prohpecies throughout the scriptures concerning the dead rising with the Lord; and here are some of them;

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. -Isaiah 26:19

After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.

Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.” -Hosea 6:2-3


The way I look at it is; (and I say this because I've gotten a warning on CF for stating it as a fact), The Lord will not necessarily descend prior to the sounding of the trumpets, but he will appear in person yet one more time to fulfill unfulfilled scripure such as Isaiah 26:19 which states that the dead will rise with his dead body. The main reason I say this is that it would be impossible for Christ to die if he descended from heaven in power and glory, for in that form he could not die, he would not die, and there would be no need for him to die, for in such a heavenly form he is immortal and death cannot overcome him, but he will indeed lay his life down yet again for the remnant, which are the 144,000, but it's possible there are more than 144,000, but as far as those who are of the nation of Israel, I believe it's only 144,000. It's possible that is not counting Gentiles.

Read Revelation 14 one more time, and you'll find that the 144,000 are those are pure and undefiled and may even be those who will endure afflction from the Antichrist during tribulation period, for this is not yet fulfilled. Christ was indeed the firstfruits, but he was not these firstfruits. They are called firstfruits because they will be the first of the harvest, just like the Israelites offered a 10% tithe of their fruits unto God before or during harvest. These 144,000 will also be as a tithe offering unto God before all of harvest, figuratively speaking. And the true "great harvest" will also be Christ's collection of the elect during tribulation period when he will then descend from heaven in power and great glory with his angels. No one has yet experienced the bliss of heaven except those select few, but do keep in mind the saying of Christ; 'The last shall be first and the first shall be last,' for I do think it is significant here even though I believe that this remnant shall be the first to experience heaven with the Lord even though they are among the last to walk the walk of faith, and that the dead shall then rise before those who are alive and remian on earth.

I don't want to go into too much detail about this subject because last time I did, I got that warning and it was called unorthodox heresie. But it is indeed scriptural and I encourage you to give it a good look see.

Also, do not forget that it is said that the day of the Son of Man shall be like the days of Noah. Well think good and hard about that; Noah was a man who was found faithful in a faithless generation, and only he and the remnant of his family were accounted worthy to be spared of sure destruction which was promised for that wicked generation. He built an ark before the flood; gathered his family and some animals and went on his way. Think about that, he did this BEFORE the flood and BEFORE destruction. Is this not a wicked generation like that one? And does not tribulation period, or the period in which God will sound the seven trumpets and pour out his seven viols of wrath upon the earth and its inhabitants resemble the flood? Keep in mind that it also says, will the Son of God find faith on earth when he returns? How will finding faith be a concern if he is coming in power and glory from heaven to recieve those who already have faith in him into heaven? And won't it be obvious who he is if he;'s descneding from heaven in glory even if he would be looking for faith? What need would there be to ask a question? There is something much more to the return of Christ than that which is commonly preached in the churches today.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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1 Corinthians 15:12-24

King James Version (KJV)


12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I don't know bout ya'll but I'm plannin on goin to the weddin supper of the Lamb.:thumbsup:
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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No, upon reading Revelation 14 in context, we find that there are a total of at least 144,000 Israelites who will follow the Lamb of God wherever he goes before or during tribulation period.

When Christ's first resurrection occured, there were indeed some who were dead who came to life out of their sepulchres when he did, but they did not rise with him into heaven in his ascension, for there is no record of anyone rising with him, and it is said that the dead shall only rise at the end when they hear the voice of the Son of God sounding as the voice of the archangel. No one has been said to experience heaven in the presence of the Lord yet except only a select few who were chosen such as Moses, Elijah who was also John the baptist, possibly Melchizadec and a few others, that is all. But there are other prohpecies throughout the scriptures concerning the dead rising with the Lord; and here are some of them;

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. -Isaiah 26:19

After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.” -Hosea 6:2-3

The way I look at it is; (and I say this because I've gotten a warning on CF for stating it as a fact), The Lord will not necessarily descend prior to the sounding of the trumpets, but he will appear in person yet one more time to fulfill unfulfilled scripure such as Isaiah 26:19 which states that the dead will rise with his dead body. The main reason I say this is that it would be impossible for Christ to die if he descended from heaven in power and glory, for in that form he could not die, he would not die, and there would be no need for him to die, for in such a heavenly form he is immortal and death cannot overcome him, but he will indeed lay his life down yet again for the remnant, which are the 144,000, but it's possible there are more than 144,000, but as far as those who are of the nation of Israel, I believe it's only 144,000. It's possible that is not counting Gentiles.

Read Revelation 14 one more time, and you'll find that the 144,000 are those are pure and undefiled and may even be those who will endure afflction from the Antichrist during tribulation period, for this is not yet fulfilled. Christ was indeed the firstfruits, but he was not these firstfruits. They are called firstfruits because they will be the first of the harvest, just like the Israelites offered a 10% tithe of their fruits unto God before or during harvest. These 144,000 will also be as a tithe offering unto God before all of harvest, figuratively speaking. And the true "great harvest" will also be Christ's collection of the elect during tribulation period when he will then descend from heaven in power and great glory with his angels. No one has yet experienced the bliss of heaven except those select few, but do keep in mind the saying of Christ; 'The last shall be first and the first shall be last,' for I do think it is significant here even though I believe that this remnant shall be the first to experience heaven with the Lord even though they are among the last to walk the walk of faith, and that the dead shall then rise before those who are alive and remian on earth.

I don't want to go into too much detail about this subject because last time I did, I got that warning and it was called unorthodox heresie. But it is indeed scriptural and I encourage you to give it a good look see.

Also, do not forget that it is said that the day of the Son of Man shall be like the days of Noah. Well think good and hard about that; Noah was a man who was found faithful in a faithless generation, and only he and the remnant of his family were accounted worthy to be spared of sure destruction which was promised for that wicked generation. He built an ark before the flood; gathered his family and some animals and went on his way. Think about that, he did this BEFORE the flood and BEFORE destruction. Is this not a wicked generation like that one? And does not tribulation period, or the period in which God will sound the seven trumpets and pour out his seven viols of wrath upon the earth and its inhabitants resemble the flood? Keep in mind that it also says, will the Son of God find faith on earth when he returns? How will finding faith be a concern if he is coming in power and glory from heaven to recieve those who already have faith in him into heaven? And won't it be obvious who he is if he;'s descneding from heaven in glory even if he would be looking for faith? What need would there be to ask a question? There is something much more to the return of Christ than that which is commonly preached in the churches today.

The 144,000 are standing on mount Sion(in heaven) with the Lord. That is where mount Zion is by the way, sorry.

Jesus did ascend with a great cloud of witness which is a metaphor paul used for the saints who ascended up with Jesus after being raised when Jesus was raised as shown in Matthew 27:52.

Also James stated that the saints of his day were the firstfruits of Israel.

When Jesus was raised was the fulfilling of Isaiah 26:19 because that is when Jesus' dead body was raised. This event cannot happen into the future with Jesus because the scriptures tell us we now know Him no more after the flesh. What do you think Jesus will come again to die on the cross again?

I can see where they would have an issue with your theology because there are several errors in it. As a matter of fact there are so many errors with it that it would take me hours to address each and ever one. Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, but there are just way too many errors there to address for me at this time. Peace.
 
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gasman64

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No, upon reading Revelation 14 in context, we find that there are a total of at least 144,000 Israelites who will follow the Lamb of God wherever he goes before or during tribulation period.

When Christ's first resurrection occured, there were indeed some who were dead who came to life out of their sepulchres when he did, but they did not rise with him into heaven in his ascension, for there is no record of anyone rising with him, and it is said that the dead shall only rise at the end when they hear the voice of the Son of God sounding as the voice of the archangel. No one has been said to experience heaven in the presence of the Lord yet except only a select few who were chosen such as Moses, Elijah who was also John the baptist, possibly Melchizadec and a few others, that is all. But there are other prohpecies throughout the scriptures concerning the dead rising with the Lord; and here are some of them;

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. -Isaiah 26:19

After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.

Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.” -Hosea 6:2-3


The way I look at it is; (and I say this because I've gotten a warning on CF for stating it as a fact), The Lord will not necessarily descend prior to the sounding of the trumpets, but he will appear in person yet one more time to fulfill unfulfilled scripure such as Isaiah 26:19 which states that the dead will rise with his dead body. The main reason I say this is that it would be impossible for Christ to die if he descended from heaven in power and glory, for in that form he could not die, he would not die, and there would be no need for him to die, for in such a heavenly form he is immortal and death cannot overcome him, but he will indeed lay his life down yet again for the remnant, which are the 144,000, but it's possible there are more than 144,000, but as far as those who are of the nation of Israel, I believe it's only 144,000. It's possible that is not counting Gentiles.

Read Revelation 14 one more time, and you'll find that the 144,000 are those are pure and undefiled and may even be those who will endure afflction from the Antichrist during tribulation period, for this is not yet fulfilled. Christ was indeed the firstfruits, but he was not these firstfruits. They are called firstfruits because they will be the first of the harvest, just like the Israelites offered a 10% tithe of their fruits unto God before or during harvest. These 144,000 will also be as a tithe offering unto God before all of harvest, figuratively speaking. And the true "great harvest" will also be Christ's collection of the elect during tribulation period when he will then descend from heaven in power and great glory with his angels. No one has yet experienced the bliss of heaven except those select few, but do keep in mind the saying of Christ; 'The last shall be first and the first shall be last,' for I do think it is significant here even though I believe that this remnant shall be the first to experience heaven with the Lord even though they are among the last to walk the walk of faith, and that the dead shall then rise before those who are alive and remian on earth.

I don't want to go into too much detail about this subject because last time I did, I got that warning and it was called unorthodox heresie. But it is indeed scriptural and I encourage you to give it a good look see.

Also, do not forget that it is said that the day of the Son of Man shall be like the days of Noah. Well think good and hard about that; Noah was a man who was found faithful in a faithless generation, and only he and the remnant of his family were accounted worthy to be spared of sure destruction which was promised for that wicked generation. He built an ark before the flood; gathered his family and some animals and went on his way. Think about that, he did this BEFORE the flood and BEFORE destruction. Is this not a wicked generation like that one? And does not tribulation period, or the period in which God will sound the seven trumpets and pour out his seven viols of wrath upon the earth and its inhabitants resemble the flood? Keep in mind that it also says, will the Son of God find faith on earth when he returns? How will finding faith be a concern if he is coming in power and glory from heaven to recieve those who already have faith in him into heaven? And won't it be obvious who he is if he;'s descneding from heaven in glory even if he would be looking for faith? What need would there be to ask a question? There is something much more to the return of Christ than that which is commonly preached in the churches today.

You should have taken the 'Blue' pill.:confused:
 
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apocolypticremedy999

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The 144,000 are standing on mount Sion(in heaven) with the Lord. That is where mount Zion is by the way, sorry.

Um, no, the Bible makes it quite clear that mount Zion is the city of David, or Jerusalem. Don't get me wrong, the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven, but this scripture is talking about Jersalem in the literal sense, and it even goes to say that these are redeemed from the earth, as in God recieves them into his kingdom before the great harvest, hence the name "firstfruits." That should be a BIG hint for you!

How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!" -Isaiah 52:7

Jesus did ascend with a great cloud of witness which is a metaphor paul used for the saints who ascended up with Jesus after being raised when Jesus was raised as shown in Matthew 27:52.

Also James stated that the saints of his day were the firstfruits of Israel.

Jesus never ascended with anyone, except maybe the thief that was crucifed with him, but even he was not recorded to do so. You give me record from the Bible of where it says that. Where are the records to support your claim? There were saints who revived and were raised out of their graves, but none of them ascended into heaven with him. Keep in mind that it says that the dead shall not rise until the last day when God descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of an archangel. The 144,000 are prophesied to follow the Lamb wherever he goes and be delivered and/or redeemed from the world after Christ's ascension into heaven. Revelation was not written until many years after Christ's death and resurrection. And Christ himself was the one to reveal these things to his disciple and prophet John many years after his crucifixion. Why would he reveal something to John about something that has already happened? That would be senseless and stupid.

When Jesus was raised was the fulfilling of Isaiah 26:19 because that is when Jesus' dead body was raised. This event cannot happen into the future with Jesus because the scriptures tell us we now know Him no more after the flesh. What do you think Jesus will come again to die on the cross again?

I can see where they would have an issue with your theology because there are several errors in it. As a matter of fact there are so many errors with it that it would take me hours to address each and ever one. Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, but there are just way too many errors there to address for me at this time. Peace.[/quote]


No, I do not think he's coming to die on the cross all over again, be to die some other way. His prophets such as the two olive trees will be killed by the antichrist at the place of his first death and I do believe that he will be there with them for some time and that he will die with them or sometime before them with the remnant of Israel, for it says that he will com,e to them as the latter rains and they will die, but he will raise them up after 2-3 days. When Christ first came, keep in mind that he was resurredted after three days, but he stayed with his disciples for about another month. He technically ascended into heaven after like 40 days or so, but Hosea 6:2 says that they will raise with him into heaven to be in his presence after three days:

Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. 3Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. -Hosea 6:1-3

When it says that we know him no more in the flesh, it meant that at that current time, he was no longer with his followers in flesh, but in spirit. He had risen into heaven and couldn't be with them in flesh at that time, but was with them in spirit. It's speaking in the sense of that time period. Again Isaiah 26:19 has not yet been fulfilled because no one was recorded to had ascended into heaven with him when he did. In fact, he was one of the only ones if not the only one to do so, and if anyone did, it would be contradicting scriptures that say that the dead would rise at the last day. If anyone actually wnet with him into heaven, it would have been the thief that was crucified with him, but the dead who were revived did not actually ascend with him into heaven, there is no record of this.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Where are the Lamb and 144,000 standing?


Revelation 14


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Notice the 144,000 were with the Lamb on mount Sion(heavenly Jerusalem) when they sang the new song before the throne.

Where is the throne of God? The scriptures tell us heaven is His throne, and the earth is his footstool.

Also notice the 144,000 and the Lamb stood before the 4 beasts and the elders. So where were they?

If you go back to Revelation chapter 4 you will clearly see they were in heaven. You will see the throne is in heaven, the 4 beasts in heaven, and the elders in heaven and also the Lamb in heaven.

Also keep in mind the earthly mount was just a shadow of the heavenly.

Hebrews 12:22;"But you are come unto mount Sion, unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels."

I believe the scriptures are very clear on that point.:thumbsup:
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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Who came first man or woman?

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here's a hint First to the Jew, then to the Nations.:thumbsup:
 
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apocolypticremedy999

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Where are the Lamb and 144,000 standing?


Revelation 14


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Notice the 144,000 were with the Lamb on mount Sion(heavenly Jerusalem) when they sang the new song before the throne.

Where is the throne of God? The scriptures tell us heaven is His throne, and the earth is his footstool.

Also notice the 144,000 and the Lamb stood before the 4 beasts and the elders. So where were they?

If you go back to Revelation chapter 4 you will clearly see they were in heaven. You will see the throne is in heaven, the 4 beasts in heaven, and the elders in heaven and also the Lamb in heaven.

Also keep in mind the earthly mount was just a shadow of the heavenly.

Hebrews 12:22;"But you are come unto mount Sion, unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels."

I believe the scriptures are very clear on that point.:thumbsup:

I see your point, however they will sing these songs before the throne AFTER being redeemed from the earth. John is enabled by God to see into the future here and this is what he saw as Christ revealed unto him. Hence how it says that these 144,000 followed the Lamb wherever he goes.

They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb. -Revelation 14:4
 
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gasman64

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Where are the Lamb and 144,000 standing?


Revelation 14


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Notice the 144,000 were with the Lamb on mount Sion(heavenly Jerusalem) when they sang the new song before the throne.

Where is the throne of God? The scriptures tell us heaven is His throne, and the earth is his footstool.

Also notice the 144,000 and the Lamb stood before the 4 beasts and the elders. So where were they?

If you go back to Revelation chapter 4 you will clearly see they were in heaven. You will see the throne is in heaven, the 4 beasts in heaven, and the elders in heaven and also the Lamb in heaven.

Also keep in mind the earthly mount was just a shadow of the heavenly.

Hebrews 12:22;"But you are come unto mount Sion, unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels."

I believe the scriptures are very clear on that point.:thumbsup:

You do realise that the 144000 aren't a literal people, don't you? It symbolic, otherwise only 12000 jews from each tribe get to take part. Not you and me.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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You do realise that the 144000 aren't a literal people, don't you? It symbolic, otherwise only 12000 jews from each tribe get to take part. Not you and me.

It is written not all who are Israel are of Israel. It is also written that a Jew is not one outward in appearance but rather inward.

These are a literal people, but they are like the tenth part of the Holy portion given unto the service of the High Priest as was shown in Numbers chapter 31. You can get a little more insight into this ingathering process which is shown in Numbers 31:26-27.

Of the mighty men of valors (men of war of Israel) half a certain portion was given unto the High Priest; these are known as the strong inscripture.

Of the congregations half(Nations) a certain portion is given to the service of the Levites(priesthood.) These are known as the great in scripture.

This dividing of the portions and spoils of war are also shown in Isaiah 53:12;"Therefore will I divide him(High Priest King Jesus) a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong."

The 144,000 that are near unto the Lord is not the full number of the redeemed of Israel but they are like the holiest of the holies which minister near unto the High Priest King.

If you go to Revelation 8:9 you will see a great multitude, which no man could number is redeemed from all nations.:thumbsup:
 
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apocolypticremedy999

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You do realise that the 144000 aren't a literal people, don't you? It symbolic, otherwise only 12000 jews from each tribe get to take part. Not you and me.

Uh, no, I'm almost certain these are literal people, although I must admit that it is quite coincidental that it is exactly 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tibe of 12 tribes that are chosen and redeemed. That's 12,000 x 12.
There is great significance of the number 12 with God in the Bible. It just seemed somewhat strange to me that it will be exactly 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe of 12 that will be chosen and redeemed, however if that's the way that God planned it, then that's the way it will be. But these are only Jews, all else are unmentioned. Keep in mind that Christ is said to be a light unto the Gentiles.

"I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, -Isaiah 49:6

And Christ himself also said;

  • I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. -John 10:16
  • The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: “I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered.” -Isaiah 56:8
These "other sheep" that Christ is referring to are the Gentiles, for Christ came exclusivley to be a light unto the Jews first. So to conclude, I do think that there may be others that are not mentioned that may be redeemed, but I could be wrong. Certainly not only Jews will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but also Gentiles. But it just may be that the first to be redeemed from the earth will only be Jews. Or it may be that only Jews are mentioned here in revelation, and the Gentiles are left out because God is trying to make clear that there is a remnant left out of Israel that will be redeemed, which is implied throughout all the Bible. There are many places throughout the scripture, esp in Isaiah that refer to a remnant. But, it's very possible that Gentiles will be included, but they're just not mentioned here, ya know what I mean? It's kinda hard to explain, but when I look throughout the scriptures, it is evident to me that Christ comes next partly for the Gentiles, esp when I consider passages about how God will provoke Israel to jealousy with a people who are not a nation and are not called his people, they will be called his people. God will grant salvation to a foreign nation that are not known by God, nor do they truly know God themselves, and in this Israel will be provoked to jealously, yet from afar off salvation will be brought near to Israel again, but from a far away country. These are some passages that indicate this, to list a few;

  • See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire. -Isaiah 30:27
    • Note how this does NOT say that he will come from heaven or from the clouds, but from afar as in a far away nation. Not to say that Christ will never descend from heaven on the clouds, but that first he must be brought from a foerign nation unto Israel before doing so. To support this, here are other passages
  • I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel. -Isaiah 46:13
  • “Listen to me, my people; hear me, my nation: Instruction will go out from me; my justice will become a light to the nations. My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm. -Isaiah 51:4-5
  • This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed. -Isaiah 56:5
  • The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: “I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered.” -Isaiah 56:8
  • From the west, people will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.
    For he will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the LORD drives along.
    “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD. -Isaiah 59:19-20
  • The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.'" -Isaiah 62:11
And there are plenty of other verses like this. One must also consider that it is said that the Great King who is Christ returns to rebuild the temple and the ruins of Israel, in which he will reign as King. Also the verses about him showering all flesh with the Spirit of God, which correlates to the many verses that can be found throughout the volume of the Book about him coming as the latter rain, and how they will look upon him who they pireced and be in mourning.
Few, done!
 
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