Rapture?

Mark,

Good words.

Non-dispensationalists are precipitous when we deny the rapture entirely.

The Bible clearly teaches a 'catching up' of the saints.

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Absolutely. The Bible definitely teaches the concept of the rapture. There is room for discussion on the timeline: I believe that the Bible best fits a pre-trib rapture, but I also see the case for a mid-trib rapture as well. I don't see a post-trib rapture much at all. But the fact of the rapture is very clear in Scripture.

Mark

Ethan_Fetch said:

I see no difference in kind between The Tribulation® and the pain and persecution the church has been suffering for 2000 years. All I see is an increase in its intensity as we near the time of Christ's return.

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I don't really know enough to truly debate this but I'm hoping others who do know more pick up on this.

There is a difference "in kind" because the pain and persecution the Church has suffered for 2000 years has been due to the work of evil in this world but the pain and suffering that will occur during the Tribulation is due to God's wrath being poured out. To say they are of the same "kind" is to suggest God works evil.

God has not spared us 2000 years of trouble, I do not believe He will spare us it's final culmination, not is there any real biblical reason for believing He will.

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Not really sure whether to laugh or cry at this??!!

If it were not for the mercy and grace of our Lord none of us would be even discussing this. There would be no such thing as Christianforums.com. All of us would be utterly forsaken and without hope.

I can think of two biblical reasons off the top of my head for believing the Church will not be around for the Tribulation.

1. Noah and his family were pulled out of harms way when God poured out His wrath via the Flood.
2. The Israelites were kept out of harms way when the angel of death was sent as the last plague upon Egypt.

Believers escaping God's wrath seems to my mind to be His "modus operandi".

peace

If it were not for the mercy and grace of our Lord none of us would be even discussing this. There would be no such thing as Christianforums.com. All of us would be utterly forsaken and without hope.

I can think of two biblical reasons off the top of my head for believing the Church will not be around for the Tribulation.

1. Noah and his family were pulled out of harms way when God poured out His wrath via the Flood.
2. The Israelites were kept out of harms way when the angel of death was sent as the last plague upon Egypt.

Believers escaping God's wrath seems to my mind to be His "modus operandi".

peace

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That's exactly why I feel that God has already set up a precedent in His Word that shows us very clearly that He protects those who are His from His judgements, which is what the Tribulation will be on the earth.

Why does He protect them from His punishment but not that of the world?

sawdust said:

I don't really know enough to truly debate this but I'm hoping others who do know more pick up on this.

There is a difference "in kind" because the pain and persecution the Church has suffered for 2000 years has been due to the work of evil in this world but the pain and suffering that will occur during the Tribulation is due to God's wrath being poured out. To say they are of the same "kind" is to suggest God works evil.



Not really sure whether to laugh or cry at this??!!

If it were not for the mercy and grace of our Lord none of us would be even discussing this. There would be no such thing as Christianforums.com. All of us would be utterly forsaken and without hope.

I can think of two biblical reasons off the top of my head for believing the Church will not be around for the Tribulation.

1. Noah and his family were pulled out of harms way when God poured out His wrath via the Flood.
2. The Israelites were kept out of harms way when the angel of death was sent as the last plague upon Egypt.

Believers escaping God's wrath seems to my mind to be His "modus operandi".

peace

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Hmmm....when you say tribulation are you defining that as God's wrath, aka the plagues? Tribulation upon the Saints comes from man. There is no Biblical indication that I can find that tells us; God's wrath = tribulation.

The Israelites were covered from the harm that was caused by God's plagues. But, they still had their burdens increased by the Egyptians. As God smited the wicked, the wicked then took it out on God's people.

There is no record, that I'm aware of, in the scriptures regarding Noah being persecuted. But, it is pretty much considered so by the vast majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims. The Quran actually says that he was, but I don't think I'll be wagering on the accuracy of the Quran anytime soon.

My point is that he probably was....

There is no reason to think in the time which the plagues are coming down upon us, that wicked men won't be taking it out of the righteous.. thus the righteous WILL endure tribulation.

God's wrath doesn't happen until Christ has already returned and the saints are with Him, so, obviously they will not experience His wrath.

But neither will they be taken out through some cosmic escape hatch either.

The world hates Jesus and it hates the Church. Satan hates Jesus and he hates the Church. He and the world want to persecute the Church and actually do so.

They have always done so and in the end times their persecution will increase "exponentially". This is "Tribulation".

The wrath of God, and the day of wrath, the judgement of King Jesus is against the ungodly, the wicked, the unredeemed, the world.

So here's a key:

When you see God pouring out His wrath on the world, you are seeing judgement; you are seeing His just decision against the reprobate.

You are not seeing tribulation.

When you see human institutions, the world, the Devil persecuting Christians?

Then you are seeing tribulation.

Adam is quite right, the Church will endure tribulation, she always has.

genez said:

Sir? Okkayyyyyy....


The earth will still be with us.

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Yes it will. It will again be void and without form(Jer. 4:23) waiting to be recreated until after the second death.

genez said:

Nations will still exist.

Zechariah 8:23 niv
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'
​

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genez said:

The city you speak of will be above the new earth, which will replace this earth AFTER the Millennium is over. Yet, this earth will be drastically transformed for the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Isaiah 11:6-7 (New International Version)
"The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox."
​

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genez said:

Why have a city above a burned out planet? Makes no sense. Perfection mixed with destruction? Not a good concept.

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Hu?...it's up there right now. While down here is violence, corruption, death, sin, etc... what is the difference if it stays there until after the millennium.

Maybe your not remembering about the land lying fallow on the seventh year.(Lev. 25:3-4) What you do is "harvest" it at the end of the sixth year and let it rest before you replant after the seventh year.

genez said:

Obvious, schmovious.....

Barns are of the earth. On land.

After all? Barns are for FARMS. There will be no barns in Heaven.

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No one said there will be barns in heaven, it's symbolism. You don't think that he will leave us behind and take some literal wheat with him, of course not. By that way of reckoning:
He has gone to prepare our "mansions" in his heavenly city, but mansions are for the ground, right? So that means we all get to go to beverly hills at the second coming according, right?

Contend with the verses I posted that tells us the thrones are in the kingdom of heaven that we shall be judging in the kingdom of God, etc...

Rev. 20:4 And I saw THRONES, and THEY SAT UPON THEM, and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY LIVED and REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

1Cor. 6:2 Do ye not know that THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE the world? and if the world SHALL BE JUDGED BY YOU, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS of God and of Christ, and SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

Mat. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall SIT UPON twelve THRONES, JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall SIT DOWN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Mat. 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall SIT DOWN with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Psa. 122:3-5 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together: Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD. For there are set THRONES OF JUDGMENT, the thrones of the house of David.

Dan. 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1Cor.4:5 Therefore JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

We know that we will judge during the millennium.

We know that we will sit on thrones during the millennium.

We know that we will be with Christ during the millennium.

Now show me ANY VERSES AT ALL, that are obviously after the second coming, that tell us that we will be judging, sitting on thrones or with Christ here on earth at that time. There aren't any! The only place these activities are Biblically confirmed as happening is in...
"IN MY KINGDOM" Luk.22:30
"IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD" Luk. 13:29
"IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" Mat. 8:11

Ethan_Fetch said:

God's wrath doesn't happen until Christ has already returned and the saints are with Him, so, obviously they will not experience His wrath.

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The coming of Christ is the LAST plague. The plagues prior to the coming of Christ will rain down while those who are alive and remain here. While those plagues are coming down the wicked will suredly persecute the righteous, according to Biblical example.

The saints won't be with Christ, he is coming to get them. Moses, Enoch, Elijah and PERHAPS the 24 elders are the only exceptions mentioned in the Bible.

Everything else you said, I more or less agree with.

Tonks said:

Not in the silly "Left Behind" sense if that is what you are asking - the idea is so far outside the bounds of orthodoxy that one cannot even see it.

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Well, give me a pint and call me a priest.

SECOND time I agree with Tonks in two weeks.


Constance

adam332 said:

Hmmm....when you say tribulation are you defining that as God's wrath, aka the plagues? Tribulation upon the Saints comes from man. There is no Biblical indication that I can find that tells us; God's wrath = tribulation.

The Israelites were covered from the harm that was caused by God's plagues. But, they still had their burdens increased by the Egyptians. As God smited the wicked, the wicked then took it out on God's people.

There is no record, that I'm aware of, in the scriptures regarding Noah being persecuted. But, it is pretty much considered so by the vast majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims. The Quran actually says that he was, but I don't think I'll be wagering on the accuracy of the Quran anytime soon.

My point is that he probably was....

There is no reason to think in the time which the plagues are coming down upon us, that wicked men won't be taking it out of the righteous.. thus the righteous WILL endure tribulation.

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Who sent the plagues, God or man? The plagues upon Egypt are a shadow (as it were) of what is to come. Whereas those plagues were sent upon a particular people in a particular place for a particular time, there will come another time, place and people who will endure God's wrath to the full. (ie complete) The time is the end, the place is the earth and the people are the sons of disobedience, those who have rejected His mercy.

If one is to think of tribulation only in the sense of suffering, then I can see why you say what you say. However the purpose of God's wrath being poured out is not to make men suffer but to eradicate from the face of this earth all that is evil.

Jesus said in this world we will have tribulation but to be of good cheer. There is no sanity whatsoever in thinking that if the wrath of God rests upon someone they have any cause for cheer. His wrath means their destruction.

Did Noah suffer persecution? More than likely but only while he was building the Ark. Once those doors were closed? No more persecution from the wickedness of men.

Did Lot suffer persecution? His soul was vexed in what he saw. But once he walked out of Sodom? No more persecution from the Sodomites.

Did the Israelites suffer under the hand of the Egyptians? Absolutely, but once they went inside their doors (covered by blood), God's angel of death did not touch them.

In all cases persecution ended and then the Lord poured out His wrath on the objects of His wrath. (ie evil men)

Maybe if your saw the wrath of God heading straight for you, coming down upon your head, you would understand the recipients will have no inclination to give any thought whatsoever to those they hate. They will be using all their energies trying to escape their inevitable destruction.

peace

adam332 said:

Wrong. The coming of Christ is the last plague.

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This doesn't seem right. Revelation 16 is the chapter that deals with the completeness of God's wrath yet none of the seven bowls seem to indicate Christ's return.

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible. Rev.16:17-21

The seventh bowl is the last plague. Yes? Where is Christ's return in this description?

peace

adam332 said:

During the millennium? No they wont, they will be brought low...the very elements will melt like wax. That verse you quoted above has absolutely nothing to do with the millenium.

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That is not about the Millennium. That is about this planet being replaced by a new one, after the Millennium is done. The elements will melt, refer to atomic fusion. Ever see an Element Chart from Chemistry? Same Greek words are at work here. Matter as we now know it, will be destroyed.

The verse you quoted above is probably from the timeline of the new earth, not during the mellinnium. It is after the millennium and the second death that we find no more death or sorrow.

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There will be two types of new earths. One (the Millennium) with a new creation on this planet. And, a completely new creation after this planet dissolves into a ball of fire.

No one said there will be barns in heaven, it's called symbolism. You don't think that he will leave us behind and take some literal wheat with him, of course not!

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Wheat is not what is taken up when separated from tares. Just the opposite happens. The wheat settles on the ground and the lighter tares are blown away. That is how the ancients did that on the threshing floor.

By your way of reckoning, He has gone to prepare our "mansions" in his heavenly city, but mansions are for the ground, right? So that means we all get to go to beverly hills at the second coming according, right?

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Our citizenship will not be on the planet. We will be here to help rule with Christ (if we prove ourselves faithful). Our home will be Heaven. Our assignment will be the new earth.

Not here on earth. Our home will be in Heaven. The new earth is what was promised the Jews, and God-fearing Gentiles. There will be two homes in Eternity. It says that heaven and earth will be someone's home. Not just the earth, alone.

Abraham was given a promise that was not fulfilled before he died. Land will be given to him during the Millennium on the new earth of that dispensation.

That land mass is about the size of the United States! Israel has never been that big in the past.

And, it was promised to be FOREVER HIS! He never had it in his first lifetime...

Abraham knew it would be done...


So saith the Lord.......

In Christ, GeneZ

I'm reading your post(s) and thinking I don't disagree with you.... so I looked back to see where we got our wires crossed.

Please note MY EMPHASIS...

sawdust said:

I can think of two biblical reasons off the top of my head for believing the Church WILL NOT be around for the Tribulation.

1. Noah and his family were pulled out of harms way when God poured out His wrath via the Flood.
2. The Israelites were kept out of harms way when the angel of death was sent as the last plague upon Egypt.

Believers escaping God's wrath seems to my mind to be His "modus operandi".

Click to expand...

In your last 3 statements you acknowledged it as coming from God. But, your first statement says "tribulation", which is not of God. Then later you indicate the church in will be around for tribulation.

I'm thinking you just mis-worded it here, yes?

Ethan_Fetch said:

Why does He protect them from His punishment but not that of the world?

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He allows us to suffer through persecution from the world to sift us, refine us and helps us grow. But His Wrath is not directed at us because we are covered by His blood. Therefore, he does not pour out His wrath, His judgment, upon us.

There is a big distinction between the persecution of the world, satan, demons, etc, and the wrath of God. A big difference.

sawdust said:

This doesn't seem right. Revelation 16 is the chapter that deals with the completeness of God's wrath yet none of the seven bowls seem to indicate Christ's return.

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible. Rev.16:17-21

The seventh bowl is the last plague. Yes? Where is Christ's return in this description?

peace

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It's right here...and remember Revelation isn't the only passages that refer to the endtime quake, it is the only one that refers to it as a numbered vial.

Let's see what happened right before the last plague....

Rev. 16:15-16 BEHOLD, I COME as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

John boldly proclaims his coming immediately before the quake...almost as if his presence caused it.

Just because you don't have a number doesn't mean you can't discern other prophecies which contain the same event.

Joel 2:10-11 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel confirms it in the coming of the Lord that causes the quake.

Nah. 1:5-10 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him. The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him. But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies. What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

As does Nahum.

Also David's prophetic song....

Psa. 18:7-14 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire. Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

Yep, the earthquake, lightnings, thunders, voices, and hail is simply Christ and his army stepping up to bat.
So the prophetic accounts concur, but also does the symbolism.

Remember, the passover angel when he came, they were covered by the blood and not harmed. And then their deliverer took them from Egypt. Christ is the last plague, the passover lamb/angel wielding death and then deliverance.

Genez, just because you post a verse and say this is the context and that is the timing, doesn't make it so.

Just do one thing for me; contend with....

We know that we will judge during the millennium.

We know that we will sit on thrones during the millennium.

We know that we will be with Christ during the millennium.

Now show me ANY VERSES AT ALL, that are obviously after the second coming, and tell us that we will be judging, sitting on thrones, or with Christ here on earth at that time. There aren't any! The only place these activities are Biblically confirmed as happening is in...
"IN MY KINGDOM" Luk.22:30
"IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD" Luk. 13:29
"IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" Mat. 8:11

Rev. 20:4 And I saw THRONES, and THEY SAT UPON THEM, and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY LIVED and REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

1Cor. 6:2 Do ye not know that THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE the world? and if the world SHALL BE JUDGED BY YOU, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS of God and of Christ, and SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

Mat. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall SIT UPON twelve THRONES, JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall SIT DOWN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Mat. 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall SIT DOWN with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Psa. 122:3-5 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together: Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD. For there are set THRONES OF JUDGMENT, the thrones of the house of David.

Dan. 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1Cor.4:5 Therefore JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

adam332 said:

It's right here...and remember Revelation isn't the only passages that refer to the endtime quake, it is the only one that refers to it as a numbered vial.

Let's see what happened right before the last plague....

Rev. 16:15-16 BEHOLD, I COME as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

John boldly proclaims his coming immediately before the quake...almost as if his presence caused it.

Click to expand...

John boldy proclaims the manner of Christ's coming not the timing. And this is partly why I personally believe in a pre-trib rapture for what "thief" announces he is about to break into your house?

Just because you don't have a number doesn't mean you can't discern other prophecies which contain the same event.

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I have no idea what you mean.

Yep, the earthquake, lightnings, thunders, voices, and hail is simply Christ and his army stepping up to bat. So the prophetic accounts concur, but also does the symbolism.

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I can agree with the above but that doesn't make the earthquake, lightnings, etc actually Christ but rather what precedes Him. ie the wrath of God the Father or His indignation (as in Nahum 1 verse).

I can see Christ as the reason for the plagues but I fail to see how He is the plague itself and I hear you saying Christ is the plague. Maybe this in not exactly what you mean?

peace

adam332 said:

Genez, just because you post a verse and say this is the context and that is the timing, doesn't make it so

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.

It should speak for itself. And, as you well know. One can be speaking the absolute truth and another will not understand it.

Just do one thing for me; contend with....

We know that we will judge during the millennium.

We know that we will sit on thrones during the millennium.

We know that we will be with Christ during the millennium.

Now show me ANY VERSES AT ALL, that are obviously after the second coming, and tell us that we will be judging, sitting on thrones, or with Christ here on earth at that time.

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One verse? And? If I do? What then? Forget my answer and move over to another "what if?" question?

For what good it will do, I do not know. But here is one verse.....

Revelation 2:26 niv
To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations."

There aren't any!

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Did you White Out, Revelation 2:26, from your Bible?

In Christ, GeneZ

adam332 said:

I'm reading your post(s) and thinking I don't disagree with you.... so I looked back to see where we got our wires crossed.

Please note MY EMPHASIS...



In your last 3 statements you acknowledged it as coming from God. But, your first statement says "tribulation", which is not of God. Then later you indicate the church in will be around for tribulation.

I'm thinking you just mis-worded it here, yes?

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This is why I generally don't get involved in end time discussions. It gets confusing.

Let me clarify my understanding for you. (hpefully)

The Tribulation (capital "T") = the timeframe of the last seven years of this age as we know it now. ie post rapture, pre-millenium.

tribulation (small t) = any suffering in general.

The last seven years is known as the Tribulation because it is the manifest establishment of Satan's kingdom on earth over all the earth. Anyone who believes in God during this time will suffer if they do His will. (they will know tribulation, in the Tribulation)

The last three and half years of this time is known as the Great Tribulation.

I haven't completely worked this out but the reason I see it as being worse than the preceeding 31/2 years is because this is the time God's wrath is poured out. The suffering of that time will be greater than all other suffering ever encountered in the earth's history because God is not mocked and His wrath is more powerful and more devastating.

During this time believers will suffer but it will be nothing compared to the suffering of unbelievers.

I have to go and will need to finish this later but one point of clarification. The believers I mentioned above? These are not the Church.

peace

sawdust said:

John boldy proclaims the manner of Christ's coming not the timing. And this is partly why I personally believe in a pre-trib rapture for what "thief" announces he is about to break into your house?

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He is proclaiming the manner and the timing. Look back at the other vials and what follows each one. Each time a vial is poured out, he then tells what happened afterward. He does not go off subject or timing during the entire discourse of the vials.

And this is partly why I personally believe in a pre-trib rapture for what "thief" announces he is about to break into your house?

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There, is no indication that this can be heard by the world, therefore the announcement does not take away from his surprise arrival. Look at the angel comments in verses 5-7, the timing is accurate, the subject is still on, but there is no indication that the world can hear those comments either.

I have no idea what you mean.

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Let me rephrase...
"Just because you don't have a numbered vial doesn't mean you can't discern other prophecies which contain the same event."

I can agree with the above but that doesn't make the earthquake, lightnings, etc actually Christ but rather what precedes Him. ie the wrath of God the Father or His indignation (as in Nahum 1 verse). I can see Christ as the reason for the plagues but I fail to see how He is the plague itself and I hear you saying Christ is the plague. Maybe this in not exactly what you mean?

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That is purely semantics. Would you agree that the passover angel was the last plague to fall on Egypt?
One could argue and say that the passover angel wasn't the last plague, but instead the death of the first born was the plague. That doesn't make either statement inaccurate.

One could say their engine won't work in their car, a mechanic might argue semantics and say it is actually your battery that is dead but the engine itself is fine. see what I mean?