Rapture

[trident343]

Can dispensationalism still work without the theory of the rapture?

 

[Dave Taylor]

Dispensationalism can't work under any circumstance....

God only has "one people":

-- people of faith; redeemed by the blood of the lamb, written in the Lamb's Book of Life; joint-heirs in Christ; the just; the elect; the righteous; the sheep; the wheat; the good fish; the uncounted multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation within all of human history.

God doesn't choose whom belong to Christ based on race, ethnicity, or birthdate.....he does it by faith.

The Just shall Live by faith...where in Habbakuk or Romans...the song remains the same.

Whether Adam's century, David's century, Jesus' century, or the last century of folks living on the planet before the final Judgement Day....Jesus words still apply:

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

 

[FreeinChrist]

Can dispensationalism still work without the theory of the rapture?

Specifically what about the rapture?
Are you asking if dispensationism requires a belief in a pretrib rapture?

 

[St.Augustine]

Can dispensationalism still work without the theory of the rapture?

It depends on your view of the tribulation. I accept that God has dealt differently with different people and that God has a kingdom programme he is working out. So God has many dispensations, however the premillenial dispensationalism of today requires a pretrib rapture inorder for Christ's return to be imminent.

 

[Jerrysch]

Can dispensationalism still work without the theory of the rapture?

I think a better question, and one of more importance, is if the Bible can still stand without the doctrine of the rapture.

 

[Jerrysch]

Dispensationalism can't work under any circumstance....

God only has "one people":

Isaiah 41:17
"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them.

Has God forsaken Israel? Did God say He would forsake them? Does God keep HIs promices?

 

[Dave Taylor]

No God didn't forsake them....He sent His son to die for them; and die He did!

Those who accept and believe are His; those who reject are damned and cast into the fire.

Pretty simple; but don't let me paraphrase...let's go back to the Book!

Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

John 15:5
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"

Did God forsake Peter? Nathanael, Simeon, Stephen? Thousands of other Jews who have accepted Christ's sacrifice for their sins throughout time? Nope.

By faith they received the promise; and were not cast out for unbelief. Noone is forsaken based on their race or their birthdate....it is based solely on how they accept/reject the Lord Jesus Christ!

The call is still going out; and the remnant is still growing; from every tongue, tribe, and nation....(including Israel for those who think otherwise)

 

[Jerrysch]

No God didn't forsake them....He sent His son to die for them; and die He did!

Those who accept and believe are His; those who reject are damned and cast into the fire.

Pretty simple; but don't let me paraphrase...let's go back to the Book!

Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

John 15:5
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"

Did God forsake Peter? Nathanael, Simeon, Stephen? Thousands of other Jews who have accepted Christ's sacrifice for their sins throughout time? Nope.

By faith they received the promise; and were not cast out for unbelief. Noone is forsaken based on their race or their birthdate....it is based solely on how they accept/reject the Lord Jesus Christ!

The call is still going out; and the remnant is still growing; from every tongue, tribe, and nation....(including Israel for those who think otherwise)

He did send His Son to die for them... and that generation rejected Him as Messiah, yet the promices which God has made are still going to be kept. But, can an ethnic son of Isreal consider himself redeemed because he has Jacob as his father? No, redemption comes as a result of faith on our side and grace on God's side. No one is considered justified because of his parentage!

 

[Dave Taylor]

The promises have been kept....Bow down at the Cross of Christ; and grab all you want...There is nothing more to gain that Christ; and all men; Jew or Gentile are free and able to participate.

Thousands of Jews and Gentiles have been coming to accept Christ for thousands of years...the door of salvation has always been open; and will remain open until Christ comes and shuts it at His return and the final Judgment!

Isaiah new the door of salvation was open to all men in His day....
Isaiah 49:8 "Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: "


Paul new the door of salvation was open to all men in His day....
2 Corinthians 6:2 "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

John 10:9 Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

 

[Psalms34]

He did send His Son to die for them... and that generation rejected Him as Messiah, yet the promices which God has made are still going to be kept. But, can an ethnic son of Isreal consider himself redeemed because he has Jacob as his father? No, redemption comes as a result of faith on our side and grace on God's side. No one is considered justified because of his parentage!

Quite true. In fact with out the redeeming work of the Messiah offered as atonement for sin, no one, pre-sacrifice nor post-sacrifice, would be able to be cleansed of any sin. As we see through out the OT all things that were done were pointing to what would be the finished work at the Cross. Currently we look back to what has been done at the Cross.

Before the sacrifice at the cross was preformed, those whom put their trust in God still did not have access to the heavenly thrown until the sacrifice was finished and the Messiah took his rite full place. Those who died before this sacrifice were held in paradise or Abrahams bosom until the sacrifice and resurrection were fulfilled. So yes, Jews can have atonement for their sins in the same manner as they did before the sacrifice of the Messiah, but now they look back to what Jesus the Messiah did for them instead of looking forward to what a promised Messiah will do for them as it was.

But still, God promised the land to them and He will still fulfill his promise. The promise of the land was not given to the Church and still remains in trust by God for the Jews. And one day soon, the vail will be lifted from their eyes and once again they will play a vital role in the affairs upon earth after the Church has gone home for the wedding feast of the Lamb.

 

[Jerrysch]

The promises have been kept....Bow down at the Cross of Christ; and grab all you want...There is nothing more to gain that Christ; and all men; Jew or Gentile are free and able to participate.

Have they? What about Ez. 37? Has that been fulfilled? What about Zech 14? Have those promices been fulfilled? What about the Promice that Messiah will sit on the throne of David in the city of Jerusalem, has that been fulfilled? Make no mistake many promices are yet to be fulfilled, and they will be fulfilled, each and every promice to ethnic Israel will be fullfilled, and If you are redeemed, they will be fulfilled befor your very eyes!

 

[Jerrysch]

Quite true. In fact with out the redeeming work of the Messiah offered as atonement for sin, no one, pre-sacrifice nor post-sacrifice, would be able to be cleansed of any sin. As we see through out the OT all things that were done were pointing to what would be the finished work at the Cross. Currently we look back to what has been done at the Cross.

Before the sacrifice at the cross was preformed, those whom put their trust in God still did not have access to the heavenly thrown until the sacrifice was finished and the Messiah took his rite full place. Those who died before this sacrifice were held in paradise or Abrahams bosom until the sacrifice and resurrection were fulfilled. So yes, Jews can have atonement for their sins in the same manner as they did before the sacrifice of the Messiah, but now they look back to what Jesus the Messiah did for them instead of looking forward to what a promised Messiah will do for them as it was.

But still, God promised the land to them and He will still fulfill his promise. The promise of the land was not given to the Church and still remains in trust by God for the Jews. And one day soon, the vail will be lifted from their eyes and once again they will play a vital role in the affairs upon earth after the Church has gone home for the wedding feast of the Lamb.

Ah! Music to my ears

 

[Huguenot]

every promice to ethnic Israel will be fullfilled

But "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom 9:6) "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-9). There is no such thing as ethnic Israel!

 

[Jerrysch]

But "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom 9:6) "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-9). There is no such thing as ethnic Israel!

Romans 9

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a] according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Those spoken of in red are ethnic Israel.

 

[Huguenot]

Ephesians 2:12-19 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

 

[Jerrysch]

I thought this thread was about the rapture

 

[Huguenot]

I thought this thread was about the rapture

Indeed it is. There are no two separate programmes for the church and israel therefore the rapture is posttribulational Dispensationalism requires a pretrib rapture.

 

[Jerrysch]

Indeed it is. There are no two separate programmes for the church and israel therefore the rapture is posttribulational Dispensationalism requires a pretrib rapture.

Do you see the rapture in the Book of Revelation? If so where?

 

[TheScottsMen]

Do you see the rapture in the Book of Revelation? If so where?

I can't say I find the rapture in the book of Revelation either nor do I believe that the rapture happens at CH4 because of the term church is not used throughout the rest of the book. With this mind set, if Paul stopped using the word sin after chapter two of Colossions, does this mean that sin is no longer around? The churches of chapter 1-3 are Kingdom Churches.

 

[nancy70x7]

The churches of chapter 1-3 are Kingdom Churches.

Oh boy! Now I'm confused!! If these churches are Kingdom churches, does that mean that the events of the rest of Revelation (Tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ) happen post-kingdom??

Revelation 4:1
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

'Splain, please...