Rapture

[trident343]

Which bible verses would you say refer to the rapture and which would you say refer to resurrection?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Can dispensationalism still work without the theory of the rapture?

A number of dispensationists believe in a posttrib rapture. What one does need to be as a dispensationist is premillennial.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Quite true. In fact with out the redeeming work of the Messiah offered as atonement for sin, no one, pre-sacrifice nor post-sacrifice, would be able to be cleansed of any sin. As we see through out the OT all things that were done were pointing to what would be the finished work at the Cross. Currently we look back to what has been done at the Cross.

Before the sacrifice at the cross was preformed, those whom put their trust in God still did not have access to the heavenly thrown until the sacrifice was finished and the Messiah took his rite full place. Those who died before this sacrifice were held in paradise or Abrahams bosom until the sacrifice and resurrection were fulfilled. So yes, Jews can have atonement for their sins in the same manner as they did before the sacrifice of the Messiah, but now they look back to what Jesus the Messiah did for them instead of looking forward to what a promised Messiah will do for them as it was.

But still, God promised the land to them and He will still fulfill his promise. The promise of the land was not given to the Church and still remains in trust by God for the Jews. And one day soon, the vail will be lifted from their eyes and once again they will play a vital role in the affairs upon earth after the Church has gone home for the wedding feast of the Lamb.

Agree!

 

[TheScottsMen]

God was dealing with Israel as a nation right up to the calling of Paul in Acts Ch. 9. In the Gospels it was the proclaiming of the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand; after the death of Christ and His resurrection we see the offer of the Kingdom in Acts Ch2. This was all in accord with prophecy, but then something un prophesied happened, something that was never revealed to the prophets, the forming of the Body of Christ. This was in the mind of God before the dawn of time and was purposed because of the rejection by Israel (Romans 9-11). The dispensation of Grace will end and God will resume his dealings with his favored nation; Israel. One can view this dealings by reading the book of Revelations.

T

Revelation 4:1
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

'Splain, please...

You seem to be straining a nat out of this sentence by intending it to mean the rapture happens after 4:1. Ok, so after writting to the 7 chuches, God continues explaining His book, so what? The only way I can see the rapture happening here was if I was a avid Left Behind reader and needed a good story to tell after

 

[nancy70x7]

You seem to be straining a nat out of this sentence

I don't think I'm straining a gnat out of anything. A normal reading of this passage gives one the impression of the passage of time in which a sequence of events occur. The word "after" assumes something happens "before". First, He deals with the 7 churches; second, He calls John to "come up here (presumably where He is) so He can show him what must take place after these things. Why did the Lord Jesus call John "up here" to show him "these things"? He didn't call him "up here" to show him His dealings with the churches. Third, He shows him the events which must take place after these things (after His dealing with the churches).

To assert that there is no passage of time or sequence events in this passage just isn't being honest with the text.

I honestly do not know if the rapture is being pictured here, but I have to ask the question, "What else could it be?". Dispensationalists know there is a rapture. When do you think it is, and why?

 

[Psalms34]

Agree!

Thank you so much, I truly look forward to see how dispensations unfold regarding the Jews (whom are NOT forgotten/rejected) and the Gentiles in coming times. It's such a joy to have such an incredible gift of my Love to know such things that I may ponder in present times(I'm blessed ). May a crown of Wisdom adorn you that you may cast it upon the feet of our Lord.

 

[Huguenot]

A number of dispensationists believe in a posttrib rapture.

But they then must also deny the imminency of Christ's return?

 

[Psalms34]

When do you think it is, and why?

when it is? Sometime between 1st century and now (always be ready), but as our surroundings reveal, this is the time or the season. This is the only time in history that such a complete destruction of the world through the battle of Armageddon could be; that such a need for rescue is needed (from God). When else in history was it possible for Humanity to LITERALLY destroy its self and the world in defcon 1 in -10 minute warning? And after so many years Israel being a nation in its own land once again. What other nationality in our world's history has been strewn into the world to recover as a nation after 1900 years? none but Isreal.

Why? It is a step in time, the way it is, and time will continue for an uncountable number of infinite years. Ten million years from now we will recall these times with greater knowledge and that will still be only the infancy of our existence. Today I am still lacking but what gifts that have been given to me I received only through prayer and true seeking of what will be (but other gifts are important as well). It's just a gift, be it prophesy or what not, we all have different gifts, you agree? Chuck Smith once said, "I'm not worried about the person who finds what they feel is the truth from the bible, it's the people who go beyond what is written in scripture to reinforce their ideology; that is dangerous" (sorry paraphrased but correct). When people shout this or that from scripture and only scripture I am not alarmed; I find other views (within core/creed) to be vary intriguing and no love lost (with a grain of salt in some extreme cases sad to say). I'll say that one thing that really lays upon my mind/heart is that fact that the Church is BEING perfected as time goes by. Tradition is something to be shunned (like a rut). I feel that the reformation in fact did not go far enough at the time so yes such things were not revealed to the Church at that time, but that is perfectly OK, we did not know because... we did not ask. We must ask. We must ask. We must ask. We must listen, not rely upon traditions that we learn from our Brothers/Sisters in Christ as handed down from generation to generation.

I will say this, we are so far from the days that our LORD walked this earth and ministered to those in those days (that all the books in the world could not contain the info), your reward will be great for sticking around, in this day that the world HATES our LORD and thus hate us, we still have common bond in that we love our LORD and one another no matter what our gifts. Thomas said 'let me see it" but 2000 years later we still say "Come O LORD come" you will be greatly rewarded for your efforts. Many will enter by (as an old friend said to me) by the skin of their teeth, but you will be rewarded far better than you will feel than you deserve. As for meee the skin of my teeth belongs to Him as well; I still follow.

 

[Huguenot]

The dispensation of Grace will end and God will resume his dealings with his favored nation; Israel.

There is but one Covenant: the Covenant of Grace which has many outworkings or dispensations (see here). The whole of God's plan of redemption has been working towards the creation of one new man in Christ Jesus and those who are there are the church or 'Spiritual/True Israel'.

 

[Huguenot]

'Splain, please...

Don't encourage him please...next he will recommend you read E. W. Bullinger

 

[FreeinChrist]

But they then must also deny the imminency of Christ's return?

Yes, they do deny imminency. I don't.

 

[Jerrysch]

I can't say I find the rapture in the book of Revelation either nor do I believe that the rapture happens at CH4 because of the term church is not used throughout the rest of the book. With this mind set, if Paul stopped using the word sin after chapter two of Colossions, does this mean that sin is no longer around? The churches of chapter 1-3 are Kingdom Churches.

If Paul stopped speaking about sin after chapter two, I would suggest it means that he has said all that he had intended to say, not that it does not exist any longer.

 

[Jerrysch]

I can't say I find the rapture in the book of Revelation either nor do I believe that the rapture happens at CH4 because of the term church is not used throughout the rest of the book. With this mind set, if Paul stopped using the word sin after chapter two of Colossions, does this mean that sin is no longer around? The churches of chapter 1-3 are Kingdom Churches.

Oh yea, what do you mean by "Kingdom CHruches"? (almost forgot to ask)

 

[Jerrysch]

There is but one Covenant: the Covenant of Grace which has many outworkings or dispensations (see here). The whole of God's plan of redemption has been working towards the creation of one new man in Christ Jesus and those who are there are the church or 'Spiritual/True Israel'.

What about the Mosiac, Davidic, Palastinian,and New covenants? And...you never answered my question about the $100.

 

[TheScottsMen]

There is but one Covenant: the Covenant of Grace which has many outworkings or dispensations (see here). The whole of God's plan of redemption has been working towards the creation of one new man in Christ Jesus and those who are there are the church or 'Spiritual/True Israel'.

Believing this is not in accord to your reformed roots. Reformers believed that thier was a covenant of works with Adam, but after his fall it was a Covenant of Grace that was moved to. You would also have us believe that the Covenant of Law was also of grace, this is nothing new...


TSM

 

[Huguenot]

What about the Mosiac, Davidic, Palastinian,and New covenants? And...you never answered my question about the $100.

They are within the Covenant of Grace. So we have one Covenant which stretches from the Fall to Eternity and within that time other covenants have been made such as the Abrahamic which was eternal but typical (Davidic, New and Palestinian are just extensions of this) and the Mosaic (temporary).

What was your question about the £100?

 

[Huguenot]

Believing this is not in accord to your reformed roots.

I said "there is but one". Yes there "was" another but that has gone.

 

[Jerrysch]

[
What was your question about the £100?

Quote: Originally Posted by: Huguenot The point is that in the OT Israel existed as it does today, however the church which began in Acts 2 has replaced it. You may be interested to read through http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/eschat2.htm


I'll give it a look, but in the mean time give this a thought. If I promiced my son to give him $100, with no conditions attached in four days, and then gave the $100 to the neighbor, would my son consider the promice fulfilled? Would I have fulfilled my promice to him?