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Rapture????

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ASLER86

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Okay, there is a lot of debate surrounding pre-trib, post-trib rapture, etc...

What are your views on it?

My NT professor isn't even certain that there will be a rapture (he even wrote his discertation on the end times), I am uncertain of what I think. Much of what he talks about makes sense, and I wanted to take the Daniel and Revelation class being offered with him next semester...but it filled up.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the rapture and the tribulation??
 

Rebirth In Flames

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Despite the influence of the “Left Behind” pop-culture trend, I do not believe in the so-called “rapture”. It’s amazing how people can read in-between the lines of the text and fill in the blanks with definite ideas and methods used in the end times, like the rapture for instance which is still a relatively new idea in theology.
 
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HisKid1973

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Quote:like the rapture for instance which is still a relatively new idea in theology. Unquote:

Yes you correct thee actual word Rapture Is Not in Scripture. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Paul said that living believers will be "caught up" with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. The Greek word Paul used here is *harpazo*, which means "to snatch away." When the Bible was translated into Latin, the scholars rendered *harpazo* as *rapturo* and I guess from there came up with rapture. I believe this is the Latin Vulgate version. Correct me if I am wrong. Believe in it or not , lets just observe and see how this crazy world pans out . Occupy till He comes . Live your live obedient to Him and share the Gospel.Shalom...kim
 
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ASLER86

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HisKid1973 said:
Quote:like the rapture for instance which is still a relatively new idea in theology. Unquote:

Yes you correct thee actual word Rapture Is Not in Scripture. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Paul said that living believers will be "caught up" with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. The Greek word Paul used here is *harpazo*, which means "to snatch away." When the Bible was translated into Latin, the scholars rendered *harpazo* as *rapturo* and I guess from there came up with rapture. I believe this is the Latin Vulgate version. Correct me if I am wrong. Believe in it or not , lets just observe and see how this crazy world pans out . Occupy till He comes . Live your live obedient to Him and share the Gospel.Shalom...kim

Yeah, your right, and the idea of the rapture came from the Latin Vulgate.

My New Testament professor has his opinions (of course), but he also says to be careful and not to be blinded by our expectations, that is how the Jews in the First Century rejected Christ as the Messiah because they were expecting a conquering king.

Thanks for your and everyone else's views on this :)
 
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HisKid1973

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Pre, mid ,post. Only God knows . There are verses to support all positions..No one position has it 100% right. The basic Truth is the Gospel everything else is secondary.Just keep the lamp filled with oil. Remember we ALL still are seeing thru the glass darlky...but this is what we all can get right.."Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh"..Shalom..kim
 
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ASLER86

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Also, post-trib rapture or maybe even mid-trib makes sense....that way those who are left behind at the mercy of the Antichrist will have some to show them the way of Truth.

Aren't there some who also believe that there will be a time of great persecution against Believers?

Revelation is an interesting book....scholars have been studying it for hundreds of years and yet we still have not come to a consensus to what it means.

Maybe we're not supposed to completely understand it? God will give wisdom when it is due, is that not true?

*shrugs*

Anyway, my brain is getting muddled and I'm afraid I'm not making much sense..I am tired. I'm going to bed.

Goodnight all.

In Christ,
ASLER86
<><
 
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ChristRules

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Rebirth In Flames said:
Despite the influence of the “Left Behind” pop-culture trend, I do not believe in the so-called “rapture”. It’s amazing how people can read in-between the lines of the text and fill in the blanks with definite ideas and methods used in the end times, like the rapture for instance which is still a relatively new idea in theology.

I agree with this.
 
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Andyman_1970

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I agree as well..................

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This scenario is created by Paul, no where do we see Jesus predict such an event. The Gospel passages alluding to “the Son of Man coming on clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62) are about Jesus’ vindication His “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning King or Master (Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem (as He was not there in the 2nd Temple period), not about Jesus returning to earth.

I don’t deny the Ascension of Jesus or the Second Coming – I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s New Creation.

Paul’s description of the rapture in Thessalonians is a brightly colored version of what he says in 1 Cor. 15-51:54 and Philippians 3:20-21. Paul borrows imagery from Biblical and political sources. He echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah, a loud trumpet sounds and a loud voice is heard.

Second he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a Son of Man) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor was used to describe Jesus in the Gospels and now Paul applies it to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony. The citizens go out to meet him in the open country and escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
 
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Zadok7000

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IMHO, the LORD in Ezek. 13 condems the "fly away" doctrine of the "pre-trib rapture". I think HE cares a great deal what we believe about this subject.
The last trumpet is the 7th. We who are alive at the time of the end cannot gather back to CHRIST until HIS return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords as the fierceness and wrath of ALMIGHTY GOD.
 
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JaimeMan

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The first step to gaining a better understanding of the rapture ideology is to biblically define what the rapture is and find its origins. The English word “rapture” is derived from the Latin word rapio which means: To seize or snatch in either an ecstasy of spirit; the removal of something from one place to another. The concept of the rapture originates from

I Thessalonians 4:17 which states:

“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

The Latin expression rapturo, a variation of rapio, is the original word for which we get the “catching up” of believers in our English Bible. The Greek adaptation of the Bible uses the word harpazo to denote the rapture. This term also means to “snatch up or take away (Bible.org).”

I Thessalonians 4:17 is not the only verse in the Bible that uses rapturo and harpazo to signify the removal of people from the earth to heaven. The Spirit “catches up” Philip near Gaza and brings him to Caesarea in Acts 8:39. In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Paul is “caught up” into the third heaven (God’s heaven.) It is unmistakable that the rapture described in I Thessalonians 4:17 is an actual removal of Christians from the earth God created to heaven to be with Him. (Bible.org) The quandary that is then aroused is, “When will this removal of God’s people from the earth take place?” The issue is not easily answered and no single theory can be fully proven until the end of time as we know it draws to a conclusion. It can be determined from I Thessalonians 4:13-16 that the rapture will take place when Christ comes back. But when will that take place?

There are varying positions that Christians have taken as to when the rapture will take place. In order to reveal which hypothesis is the most accurate biblically, each proposition must be thoroughly examined. The most popular and controversial theories include the following: The Pre-Tribulation View; The Mid-Tribulation View; The Post-Tribulation View; and the Pre-Wrath View.

The Pre-Tribulational view has become one of the most popular beliefs among Christians today. This recognition is primarily due to the propaganda and mass media attention it has received in recent years. The Left Behind books and moviescreated by Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins have been the main motivators for the popular interest in the pre-tribulation rapture. But on what ideas is this notion based?

The Pre-Tribulationalist’s view is grounded in Revelation 3:10 which states,



“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who love on the earth.”

This verse in context is referenced to the church in Philadelphia but it can be applied to all believers according to Revelation 3:13. Those who hold to this belief say that the hour of trial is the seven year tribulation period and therefore the church will be “taken up” before the judgment begins. Michael J. Svigel comments on this passage:

“Those who see the rapture in this verse argue primarily on the basis of the phrase thrhsw ejk th’” w{ra” (I will keep you from the hour.) It is suggested that thrhsw means to “preserve” or “protect,” while the preposition ejk means “out from within.” It is emphasized that the believers are not merely promised protection from the trail, but protection from the entire hour of trial, necessitating a removal from heaven to earth.

From this passage, pre-tribulations hold to the belief that Christ will return to earth to gather the believers before the tribulation commences.

There is other biblical support for the pre-tribulation rapture. Matthew 24 says that neither the day nor the hour can be known of Christ’s return. This immanency falls in line with the pre-tribulation thought. If Christ can come at any hour without warning, a rapture at any other time would be illogical because there would be other “signs” to look for before Jesus’ return. Luke 12:35 warns Christians to be “dressed ready for service and [to] keep your lamps burning.” This passage suggests that Christ wants us to be ready at all times because He may return at any time (Grudem pg. 449).

Another argument presented in favor of the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact that the church is not mentioned from Revelation chapter 4-18. John’s rapture in chapter four is viewed as a symbolic type of rapture of the church to heaven. The saints mention in between Revelation 4 and 18 are claimed to be those Christians who are saved during the tribulation (Bible.org). The church is seen again in chapter 19 at God’s throne proclaiming His name.

Adherents to the pre-tribulation view also believe that Jews who become saved during the tribulation (including the 144,000) will enter the millennial kingdom in non-glorified bodies. They will populate the kingdom after all of God’s enemies on the earth have been defeated in the final outpouring of His wrath (Grudem pg.449).

The mid-tribulation rapture is founded in the belief that the two witnesses in Revelation 11:11-19 are harbingers to the rapture at the midpoint of the tribulation. (3 ½ years.) James Buswell, author of A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, states:

It is my opinion that in the coming to life and Rapture of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:11) we have an exact synchronization of events. The two witnesses are caught up into heaven “in the cloud” at the same moment that the elect of God are caught up together in the clouds to the meeting of the Lord in the air.

(1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

The seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15 is paralleled to 1 Corinthians 15:52’s

sounding of the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians pronounces the rapture with the raising of the dead and the changing of the believers at the last trumpet. The two witnesses are told to “come up hither” in Revelation 11:12, preceding the last trumpets sounding. The two witnesses act as a symbolism for the rapture of the church up to God.

Mid-Tribulationalists also see a strong similarity between Revelation 11:11-12 and

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. They are as follows: (Svigel)

Revelation 11:11-12

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

But after three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them and they stood on their feet, and tremendous fear seized those who were watching them. (11:11)

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven … and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (4:16)

Then they heard a loud voice from heaven … (11:12a)

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, … (4:16)

… saying to them: “Come up here!” So the two prophets went up to heaven in a cloud while their enemies stared at them. (11:12b)

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord always. (4:17)













The parallels between these verses seem to align logically and therefore make for a plausible explanation as to when the rapture will occur.

The post-tribulation rapture takes place after the Great Tribulation. This belief is based on the observable world-wide signs described in the Bible which take place before Christ’s return; most of which are linked to the last trumpet of the tribulation. The New Testament does not clearly state that the church will be taken up before the rapture in a secretive manner as the pre-tribulationalists believe. In total disparity, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says, “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.” Leon Morris, author of the New International Commentary on the New Testament, notes “It is difficult to see how he could more plainly describe something that is open and public.” Clearly the tribulation has heralds with it.

The last trumpet of the tribulation appears to be connected to the rapture of the church. Grudem explains, “The trumpet call to gather the elect in Matthew 24:31, the sound of the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and the last trumpet at which our bodies are changed in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, all seem to be the same trumpet - the last trumpet that is blown just before the millennium.” If this truly is the “last trumpet,” how would another trumpet follow it seven years later if the rapture took place before the tribulation?

Further evidence favoring a post-tribulation rapture surfaces when one looks at the aspects Christ’s return. The New Testament does not substantiate a “second” returning of Christ. This idea is an inference brought about by the precepts of pre-tribulationalists. The post-tribulation rapture is consistent with Scripture because Christ returns once with the sounding of the trumpet of God.

We are also reminded time and time again that we will go through trials and tribulations, and the Great Tribulation is no exception. “Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.” (James 1:2-3 NIV)

Inthe pre-wrath rapture, followers of Christ are taken up by Him before the outpouring of God’s wrath takes place on the earth. Revelation 3:10 tells us, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (KJV)” The “hour of trial” is not a reference to the whole of the tribulation as those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture would say to be truth but rather is telling of the Hour of God’s Wrath that is to come upon to whole world. (Revelation 16)

Steven Sherman, author of Last Days Calendar, sees a correlation between Daniel’s weeks and the timing of God’s Wrath. He notes that Daniels seven “days” are each representative of a single year, which is 360 days by the Jewish lunar calendar. One hour is one twenty-fourth of one day according to that lunar calendar. Calculating the ratio relationship of the hour into a full year’s time, a prophetic “hour” in Scripture would translate into fifteen days or one twenty-fourth of 360 days. “(It is interesting to note that the earth’s sphere of 360 degrees is divided into twenty-four time zones. The earth rotates fifteen degrees of longitude every hour.)” Steven Sherman asks, “What if, therefore, the outpouring of God’s final wrath was to occur over fifteen days rather than the whole seven years of Daniel’s ‘seven.’” This amount of time for the pouring out of God’s wrath would be cut short for the sake of the elect (God’s faithful) to a ten-day period, which is two-thirds of one hour. (This concept can be found in Hosea 6:2 and Zechariah 13:8.) God’s servants on the earth would be raptured before the outpouring of His wrath but would endure the great time of persecution of the earth. (The Great Tribulation.)


 
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JaimeMan

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The Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, and Post-Tribulation views on the rapture each have many problems with their beliefs. The pre-tribulation rapture is very weak in its foundation. The idea that “the hour of trial” implies the whole tribulation is a weak connection and cannot be proven Biblically. The proposal for having two separate “raptures” (one before and at the end of the Tribulation) is purely speculation. Grudem also notes that “It is no argument for the pretribulation view to say that there must be some people in nonglorified bodies who will enter the millennium, because…when Christ comes at the end of the tribulation, he will defeat all the forces arrayed against him, but that does not mean he will kill or annihilate all of them. (Grudem p. 450)”

Pre-tribulationalists try to argue that the rapture is depicted in Revelation 4:1-2, where John is told to “Come up Hither” (symbolizing the Church’s rapture up to God.)” They say that the Greek phrase metaV tau’ta, which says “after these things” is changing the scenario to the church in the presence of God. However, the “passage actually appears to be describing in normal language the actual experience of John in receiving his prophetic vision.” (Svigel) Even Robert Thomas, a dispensationalist writer, admits this and concludes, “This summons is best understood as an invitation for John to assume a new vantage point for the sake of the revelation he was about to receive (Thomas).” Secondly, the Greek phrase for “after these things,” is used not just in that passage in Revelation bust also in Revelation 4:1; 7:1; 15:5; and 18:1. In these cases, it denotes a sudden “change in the content of John’s vision, not a change in ages, epochs, or dispensations.” (Svigel) This case for a pre-Tribulational rapture is not concrete enough to be truth.

The Mid-Tribulational view has a significant dilemma in their position of defining who the two witnesses are: the symbolic representation of the church. Michael J. Svigel describes a flaw in this thinking: “…if the two witnesses are a symbol of the witnessing Church, their death at the hand of the beast (Rev. 11:7) after the 1,260 days of testimony would indicate that the whole church was destroyed by the beast.” He also notes that these two characters were described with the analogy of “two olive trees and two lampstands.” These objects were also used for symbolism in Zechariah 4, “where the referents are two actual individuals, Zerubbabel and Joshua.” Lastly, the actions the two witnesses partake in are very hard to analogize to the church, such as calling fire and plagues from heaven and having their corpses lying in the streets of Jerusalem. The whole concept just doesn’t work scripturally. (Svigel)

The post-Tribulational rapture has just a few theoretical flaws with it. The correct way to understand the timing of the rapture is to identify the purpose of God’s wrath. Revelation 16:5-6 says that the Wrath’s purpose is to punish mankind and the earth for the shed blood of the saints. This is unlike the tribulation which serves as a test to purify the Christians who live on the earth.

Revelation 3:10 says that we will be kept from the Wrath of God, the “hour” of trial that is coming upon the whole earth. It is for these reasons that a post-Tribulational rapture would not work the best scripturally.

The pre-wrath rapture is the most viable answer to the rapture question. Not only because of the mathematical relationships of Daniel’s seven weeks to the wrath and the rapture, but also for the parallels of Christ’s first coming to His second coming. When it came time for Christ to die on the cross, he made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem riding “lowly upon a donkey’s colt” “on the tenth day of the first month of the Biblical calendar, the month of Nissan. (Sherman p. 33)” This day is also the day when the Passover lamb is to be selected for sacrifice. (Exodus 12:3) Many have come to know this day as “Palm Sunday.” Steven Sherman adds,

“Later in that month of Nissan, Jesus partook of the Last Supper with his disciples and instituted the ‘New Covenant in His Blood” on the eve of the Passover. Jesus was crucified and entombed during the Biblical Feast of Unleavened Bread. Jesus resurrected from the dead on the day when the Feast of Fruits was to be celebrated. As a part of the feast, a sheaf of the first grain was given as a wave offering on the day after the Sabbath of the Passover week. (Lev. 23:9-14) Jesus, who is also the “Firstfruits of the Resurrection” (I Corinthians 15:23), rose from the dead on the day following the Sabbath (the Sabbath falls on the seventh day of each week). The tomb of Jesus Christ was found empty early on Sunday morning (biblical first day of each week), following the “Passion Week” (really eight days, the seven-day week plus one day, counting from the triumphal entry to Christ’s resurrection; Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday.)” (Sherman p.33)

The Holy Spirit descended down on the disciples at Pentecost towards the end of the biblical Feast of Weeks, fifty-days later. The Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ. (Luke 24:44; Colossians 2:17) (Sherman p. 33)

These four biblical feasts and festivals of Leviticus 23 were fulfilled both in their literal occurrence and spiritually in Christ. (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, and Weeks) What impact does this have on the timing of the rapture in reference to the outpouring of God’s wrath? It can be inferred that Jesus will act in the same manner as he did in fulfilling the first cycle of Jewish festivals. Only this time he will be coming back to complete the fall cycle of festivals spoken of in Leviticus 23: Rosh HaShona (Feast of Trumpets); Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement); and Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). God ordained, these take place during the first fifteen days of the seventh month (Tishri) according to the Hebrew calendar. Each festival is a picture of Christ established by God. Steven Sherman notes, “The time span of fifteen days (two weeks and one day) in which the last three festivals are to be celebrated, I believe, relate significantly to the fifteen-day period, or biblical “hour,” of God’s wrath upon those who live on the earth. (Revelation 3:10). (Sherman p. 34)” With all of these God ordained symbolisms and practices set in the perfected and divine order He placed them, it is impossible to ignore the truth of the potential for a pre-Wrath rapture.

Many Christians in America are being deceived by lies spoken from the pulpit proclaiming an easy-way-out salvation from the Great Tribulation through the rapture. It is unfortunate that many have not studied the Scriptures for themselves and have been tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting. (Ephesians 4:14) It is important to know what God’s word says and how it is applied in the context of the whole of Scripture. The pre-wrath rapture is Biblically consistent and celebrates the God-ordained festivals of the Hebrew calendar which were created in prospect of the return of the Messiah; who, by his power, will fulfill all of the festivals literally and spiritually. :thumbsup: :)

Blessings,
Jaime

(C) Jaime Sherman 2005
Cited:
Bible.org: Trustworthy Bible Study Resources: Questions and Answers http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=69&qa_id=248 September 28, 2004



Buswell, James O., A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1963), 2: 456.



Grudem, Wayne. Bible Doctrine: Essential Teachings of the Christian Faith. Grand Rapids, MI Zondervan Publishing 1999.



Herreck, Greg. Eschatology: End Times. http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=732 September 28, 2004



Morris, Leon, The First and Second Epistles to the Thessalonians, New International Commentary on the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. © 1945



Rosenthal, Marvin The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church. Nashville: Thomas Nelson

Publishers, 1990.



Sherman, Steven L. The Last Days Calendar: Understanding God’s Appointed Times.

Enumclaw, WA Pleasant Word Publishing, 2003.



Svigel, Michael J. Th. M. The Apocalypse Of John And The Rapture Of The Church:
A Reevaluation. September 28, 2004




Thomas, Revelation, Blessed Hope. 1-7, 336-337 Cf. Ladd 76-77.



Zondervan Corporation, The Teen Study Bible: New International Version. Grand Rapids,

MI. Zondervan Publishing 1993.



 
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