Rapture

[postrib2]

[postrib account not working]


Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . Jesus will make two completely different appearances. Once before the tribulation, to remove his church to safety . . . "

Actually, when we look at the scriptures related to the rapture, we see that they don't distinguish between the rapture and the second coming; rather, they consistently say that the rapture will be at the "coming" of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Corinthians 15:23; Matthew 24:29-31); there's no third coming.

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Mark 13:24-27 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . and again with his church at the end of the tribulation . . . "

The scriptures don't say that there will first be a future coming of Jesus for believers, and then a subsequent coming with believers. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says that He will come with believers at the rapture (compare 1 Thessalonians 3:13). There's no third coming.

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . God made Noah get in the Ark . . . "

Just as neither Lot nor Noah were raptured into heaven before God's wrath against Sodom or the flood, so the church won't be raptured into heaven before God's wrath in the seven vials. Instead, Jesus promises a blessing to the faithful saints who are still on the earth during the sixth vial because by that time He still hasn't yet come as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Before the vials of wrath are poured out, faithful saints could be called by God to shut themselves in protected places on the earth which had been prepared beforehand (Isaiah 26:20-21), just like Noah was called to shut himself in the ark prepared before the flood (Genesis 7:1).

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . When the Holy spirit is removed from restraining so is the church . . . "

The restrainer who is removed before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the Holy Spirit indwelling the church because Christians will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), no Christians are outside the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together the church will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . Jesus describes his return as a secret time . . . "

Jesus is addressing the same church, the same "ye" in Matthew 24:36-51 ("be ye also ready") that He's addressing in Matthew 24:3-35 ("ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation"), just as He's referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" in Matthew 24:36-51 that He's referring to in Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation." There's no third coming.

Jesus didn't say that no man will know the day, only that no man knows the day, which is still true. Compare the Apostle Paul's use in 1 Corinthians 2:11-12 of the same "the things of God knoweth no man" idea that Jesus expresses in Matthew 24:36. There Paul explains that by the Holy Spirit it's now possible for believers to know the things of God, just as other scriptures leave open the possibility that in the future the Holy Spirit will reveal the day to believers (John 16:13; Amos 3:7).

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . when people are going about their business . . . "

People in the great tribulation will still have to work in fields and grind at mills in order to make food to eat (Matthew 24:40-41), and they will still have to sleep (Luke 17:34-36), just as people have always had to work and grind and sleep. People will even make merry in the great tribulation (Revelation 11:10).

"One shall be taken, and the other left" will be fulfilled at the second coming, for in Matthew 24:39-41 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as in Matthew 24:29-31. The elect will not be taken or left, but gathered together (Matthew 24:31). Unbelievers will either be taken to where the birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28; Revelation 19:21) or left alive (Zechariah 14:16-18). So the one taken, one left event is neither before the tribulation, nor does it refer to believers at all.

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . We as believers in Jesus have been delivered from judgement . . . "

When we look at the scriptures, we see that none of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they will in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . Revelation 3:10 . . . "

Revelation 3:10 is addressing only one of the seven first-century church congregations "in Asia" (Revelation 1:4, 11) regarding a first-century time of trial, just as Revelation 2:10 is addressing one of the first-century church congregations "in Asia" regarding a first-century time of trial. You can't take Revelation 3:10 without also taking Revelation 2:10.

From post #1 in this thread:
". . . Jesus says, I'll keep you from the hour, not protect you through the hour . . . "

The first-century church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:10) wasn't raptured out of the time of trial that came upon the world in the first century, yet they were still kept from that time of trial. The "keep from" (tereo ek) phrase used in Revelation 3:10 is used in John 17:15, where it's emphasized that we don't have to be taken out of the world in order for us to be kept from evil in the world.

From post #5 in this thread:
". . . Who opens the seals of the 7 sealed book? . . . "

The fact that Jesus opens the seals (Revelation 6) in no way requires that they are God's judgments or wrath; Jesus could be permitting Satan to bring them about at that time; just as the fact that God repeatedly allowed Satan to bring about all that came upon Job (1-2) in no way requires that what came upon Job was is any way God's judgment or wrath; God permitted Satan to bring it about at that time.

From post #5 in this thread:
". . . Where are the trumpets blown? . . . "

No scripture says or requires that any of the trumpets are God's wrath. The angels sounding the trumpets could be God's announcing the events which will be brought about by Satan and fallen angels. Just as Satan was allowed to cast down a third of the stars in Revelation 12:4, so during the first four trumpets and in the sixth trumpet he will be allowed by God to destroy a third part of the trees and a third part of the seas and a third part of the creatures in the sea and a third part of the ships and a third part of the rivers and a third part of the fountains of waters and darken a third part of the sun and a third part of the moon and a third part of the stars and slay a third part of mankind (Revelation 8:7-12; 9:15). The fifth trumpet cannot be God's wrath because Christians are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), and the 144,000 Christians will be the only Christians who won't be tormented by the locusts (Revelation 9:4; 7:3-4). We know there will be other Christians on the earth besides the 144,000 during the trumpets because the 144,000 are subsequently seen in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other Christians are still on the earth suffering and dying under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13). So some of the church will still be alive on the earth during the trumpets. The sixth trumpet isn't the work of God but of an army led by the fallen angels who were bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14).

From post #5 in this thread:
". . . the bride of Christ . . . "

The bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:31-32). The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

From post #9 in this thread:
". . . I don't see that those who believe in Christ are 'kept safe' through the Tribulation . . . "

Regarding God's protection of the saints, during that part of the tribulation which is before the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), only some saints will be physically protected from Satan (Revelation 12:14) and the Antichrist while other saints will be imprisoned and killed (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), many by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4). This is also how it was during the first century persecution of the church: only some saints were protected (Revelation 3:10) while other saints were imprisoned and killed (Revelation 2:10), many, like the Apostle Paul, by being beheaded.

From post #11 in this thread:
". . . The 'first resurrection' of Rev. 20 is AFTER the Second Coming . . . "

Revelation 20:4 doesn't say that the first resurrection will occur after the second coming; it's simply describing some of those who will be resurrected at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:23).

From post #19 in this thread:
". . . they thought they were in the Day of the Lord . . . "

The day of the Lord will begin at the second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8). In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, the Apostle Paul says that our gathering together to Christ at His second "coming" (verse 1) or "the day of Christ (Lord)" (verse 2) can't come until after the apostasy and after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8).

From post #19 in this thread:
". . . WHY were they distressed? . . . Looks like they thought they missed something . . ."

The Apostle Paul makes no reference to anyone thinking they'd missed the second coming or the resurrection of the church. The false teachings that said the second coming and resurrection of the church had already happened, which were shaking and destroying the faith of some (2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Timothy 2:18), were probably like the full-preterist teachings of today, which spiritualize away every scriptural description of the second coming and the resurrection of the church into mere allegories of events that had already been completed in the unseen, spiritual realm. This full-preterism would upset believers as it turned the true hope of the gospel of seeing Jesus when He physically returns, and of being resurrected into immortal physical bodies just like He has (1 John 3:2-3; 1 Peter 1:13; Philippians 3:21; Luke 24:39), into mere poetic symbols of invisible past events, leaving believers with nothing to hold onto, nothing to hope for.

 

[postrib2]

[postrib account not working]

From post #19 in this thread:
". . . the 69th week ENDS with this:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself . . ."

Daniel 9:26 says that what it describes will happen after only sixty-two "sevens," not sixty-nine "sevens."

Daniel 9:24-27 refers to seventy "sevens" which will occur contiguously, for a specific period of time would not have been given in Daniel 9:24-27 if its fulfillment would actually involve other much longer periods of time. And the Hebrew word for "sevens" (shabuwa, Strong's #7620) is a participle of the Hebrew word which means "to be complete" (shaba, Strong's #7650), so that Daniel 9:24 could be referring in a sealed manner to seventy "completions," or seventy years, in the time of the end (Daniel 12:9), beginning with the modern commandment to restore the nation of Israel (either the 1947 U.N. resolution calling for the reestablishment of a state of Israel or the 1948 Israeli declaration of statehood) and ending with Christ coming after sixty-nine years (Daniel 9:25) and fulfilling all of the requirements of Daniel 9:24 in the earthly Jerusalem by the seventieth year.

A false Messiah will be "made covenant with" after only sixty-two years from the modern commandment to restore the nation of Israel (Daniel 9:26). There will be a false Messiah who will arise to rule Israel who will be a different person than the Antichrist and who will be a false "prince of the covenant" whom the Antichrist will "cut off" or "make a covenant with" or "make a league with" (Daniel 9:26; 11:22-23). The Hebrew word translated as "cut off" in Daniel 9:26 is karath (Strong's #3772), the definitions of which include "to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces)." Karath is translated as "covenanted with" in 2 Chronicles 7:18 and Haggai 2:5, and is translated as "made a league with" in 1 Samuel 22:8. After making his treaty (league or covenant) with the false Messiah, the Antichrist will allow him and his followers to continue for a few years to offer sacrifices in a temple that will have been rebuilt in Jerusalem, but then the Antichrist will suddenly break the treaty and stop all sacrifices and sit in the temple himself and proclaim himself to be God above all gods (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11-12; Revelation 13:4-6).

From post #37 in this thread:
". . . who are these 'Elders . . .' . . . "

Regarding those singing in Revelation 5:8-9, we find that no scripture says or requires that the twenty-four elders or the four beasts are men. They could be angels who are offering up in song the "prayers of the saints" before God (Revelation 5:8, compare Revelation 8:3).

From post #37 in this thread:
". . . Jesus comes once in secret . . . "

Jesus' coming will in no way be secret, for Jesus will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30), so that every eye shall see Him (Revelation 1:7).

From post #41 in this thread:
". . . We see the Church and Israel as being two different groups . . . "

The scriptures nowhere teach that the church and Israel are mutually exclusive. Such a false "dispensationalism" is a mistaken ecclesiology that was devised in an attempt to support the mistaken eschatology of a pre-trib rapture, which the scriptures also nowhere teach.

Believing Gentiles have become Abraham's seed and heirs (Galatians 3:29), fellow heirs with believing Jews (Ephesians 3:6), grafted into the tree of believing Israel (Romans 11:17). Believing Gentiles are no longer aliens to the commonwealth of Israel or strangers to the covenants of promise made to Israel, but are now fellow citizens with believing Israel (Ephesians 2:12-19).

Believing Jews have always been part of the tree of believing Israel, indeed they are its original branches, for only "some" of the original branches have been broken off (Romans 11:17); the church and "the Jews" (or Israel) have never been mutually exclusive, for all believing Jews and Gentiles have always been baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13); believers such as Peter and Paul and Barnabas are all Apostles of the church and Jews (or Israel) at the same time (Romans 11:1; Galatians 2:13-15; Acts 22:3; Acts 21:39); Aquila and Apollos are members of the church and Jews at the same time (Acts 18:2; Acts 18:24); the early church included thousands of Jews who were believers (Acts 21:20); the church still today includes a great many believing Jews.

The Apostle Paul said that in the "dispensation" of the fullness of times Christ might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth (Ephesians 1:10), and this fullness of times has already come (Colossians 1:20; Galatians 4:4), for all believing Jews and Gentiles have already been made into one new man, one commonwealth of believing Israel (Ephesians 2:12-19), one fold with one Shepherd (John 10:16), baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13), just as all believing Jews and Gentiles will be gathered together from heaven and earth by angels at Christ's second coming (Mark 13:27). Believing Israel is included in the bride of Christ (Revelation 21:9-12); New Jerusalem is the mother of us all (Galatians 4:26).

From post #64 in this thread:
". . . the imminency of Christ's return . . . "

When we look at the scriptures related to Christ's future coming, we find they do not teach or require imminence; instead, they refer only to the second coming and to our continual looking forward to that event. There's no third coming.

Jesus never taught imminence. Instead, He taught that the apostles would preach the gospel throughout the known world (Acts 1:8); He told Paul that he must preach also in Rome (Acts 23:11); and He said that He would come to gather together the church after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Jesus would not have prophesied any of these things if imminence were true.

The Apostle Paul never taught imminence. Instead, he expressly taught the opposite of imminence, for in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 he said that Christ can't come and gather together the church until after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11), which can't occur until after the Jewish temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem, for Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather together the church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). The Apostle Paul knew that he would die before the Lord came (2 Timothy 4:6).

The Apostle John never taught imminence. Instead, he confirmed in Revelation 7:14; 13:10, 14:12-13 that the church will be in the tribulation.

The Apostle Peter never taught imminence. Instead, he knew that he would die before the Lord came (2 Peter 1:14-15).

The writer of Hebrews never taught imminence. Instead, he said "Yet a little while, and he that shall come will come" (Hebrews 10:37), which is the opposite of imminence, for it means that some time must elapse before Jesus returns, while imminence says that no time at all has to elapse before Jesus returns. And if "a little while" can be almost 2,000 years, then it can include the relatively short tribulation as well.

From post #64 in this thread:
". . . Matt. 24:44 . . . "

The immediate context of Matthew 24:44 shows that Jesus meant that only if we don't watch (stay spiritually awake) He will come at an hour when we think not (compare Revelation 3:3), for we are to be like the wakeful householder who is not surprised by the coming of the thief (Matthew 24:43-44). The Apostle Paul later confirms that if we remain spiritually awake Jesus will not overtake us like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

If we were to accept the mistaken pre-trib view that Matthew 24:44 means Jesus cannot possibly come back when we think that He might, and also accept the mistaken pre-trib view that we are to be constantly thinking that Jesus will come back every moment, then we would be left with the strange doctrine that Jesus could not possibly ever come back.

From post #64 in this thread:
". . . Mark 13:35-37 . . . "

In the Bible, in the original Greek, to "watch" (Strong's #1127) doesn't mean to stare up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake, whether physically (Matthew 26:40) or spiritually (1 Thessalonians 5:6).

From post #64 in this thread:
". . . Matt. 25:1-13 . . . "

The parable of the ten virgins relates to the second coming (Matthew 25:10). It in no way teaches a pre-trib rapture. Matthew 25:10 refers specifically to the marriage, which won't happen until the second coming (Revelation 19:7). There's no third coming.

From post #69 in this thread:
". . . there aint no RAPtSURE . . . "

The English word "rapture" comes from "rapiemur," the old Latin translation of the original Greek "harpazo," translated as "caught up" (KJV) in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Believers will definitely be "caught up" or "raptured" at the second coming of Christ immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

From post #72 in this thread:
". . . the judgment seat of Christ . . . "

No scripture says that the judgment of the saints will occur during the tribulation, or in the third heaven. At the second coming (Revelation 19), Christ won't immediately begin to fight Armageddon, but will first gather together the church from heaven and earth into the clouds in order for the church to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, compare Mark 13:27; 2 Timothy 4:1; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 10:30).

From post #76 in this thread:
". . . the church is raptured to meet Jesus in the clouds as described in I thes. 4. and that this does not involve angels . . . "

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 doesn't say that Jesus Himself will catch us up; Jesus will send forth His angels to gather us together to Him (Mark 13:27).

From post #76 in this thread:
". . . The gathering of Israel . . . "

Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the coming of Christ and gathering together of the church. There's no third coming. Matthew 24:31 refers to the gathering together from heaven and earth (Mark 13:27) of the church elect (Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2), whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13). Just as Matthew 24:36-51 is written for the church elect so Matthew 24:4-35 is written for the church elect.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[Wreck n Sow]

Hi FreeinChrist
You wrote
The rapture of the church is not discussed in the OT - because the church was still a mystery to the OT saints

God wrote
AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Even the secrets

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Wreck a Sow,

I too do not see the "church" clearly spelled out in the OT. The closest I have come to it is:

Isaiah 42:1-9 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Which we see fulfilled in the NT:

Luke 2:30-32 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Acts 13:46-48 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hi FreeinChrist
You wrote
The rapture of the church is not discussed in the OT - because the church was still a mystery to the OT saints

God wrote
AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Even the secrets

The question is how many "secrets" were there AND when did He reveal them.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[Wreck n Sow]

Hi Paul

Ephes. 3:1-6
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, [2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The fact that the gentiles could be fellowheirs was revealed to the prophets. Just because most all, did not understand how(Christ), we are able to see and understand the scriptures now in the old testament (after His coming) that spoke of him. Jesus said he came to preach the kingdom and there are some who are not of his flock that will enter the kingdom if grafted into the tree of the house of Israel.

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer:

The holy Mnt. is the kingdom, the 1000 yr period of rest

 

[inhimitrust]

The only "rapture" I wait on is when I die and am raised up to be in God's kingdom. What are christians doing today to remain strong in their faith in Christ and Love for God and others? Do we just sit around waiting for a "rapture" or do we try to be desciples for God to help other know Him.
The whole bible was written to and for that "generation", not ours. Nothing in there applies to us except for the pouring out of God's spirit to those that come to believe in Christ and follow His commands (if you read Paul, note closely who he is talking to and warning, hint, it is not us). "Christ" is here now in the form of the Holy Spirit, so unless you don't believe in that, then you are waiting on a "physical" form of Him to appear again.
What really happened at the destruction of Jerusalem? The only historical records we have are from Josephus and George Holford (1805). To really appreciate the scope of this God willed destruction, one must read on the history of it. Just because I see the bible fullfilled, what difference does that make about my relationship with God and my belief in Christ. I pray and honor God everyday and read His book daily, how many others actually read the bible themselves and not let others interpret it?
The bible is the most controversial book in the world, but to me and my family personally and many others, it is one complete book from the garden of eden to revelation and it is a lot more enjoyable reading it like that and proves to me God is indeed real.

 

[Wreck n Sow]

Hello inHim,
Did i miss the Day of the Lord? Anyways back to the rapsure....I do agree with ya that there is no rapture. Just from whats been talked about here, the things you have to believe, if you believe in the rapsure are

1- The last trump of Cor.15 isnt really the last trump, cause theres trumpets being
blown on the year long day of the Lord.

2- Job goofed when he said the "change" would come after the wrath and the heavens be no more

3- theres 2 sets of "ten thousands of saints" but only 1 will return with Christ

4- death gets "swallowed up in victory" twice

5- Even though 1 Thes.4 has the exact wording as a scripture in the old testament depicting the Day of the Lord it cant be speaking of that day because... well...uh.. its the rapsure....

6- God does do things without first revealing it to his prophets

 

[Wreck n Sow]

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

REV.10 [5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If you want to know if the people of GOD will go through the so called tribulation and wrath just read about the six angels that come before the 7th. The voice of the 7th angel in which the mystery of GOD will be finished. The same mystery spoken of in 1COR.15 verse 51.

I know, I know. Theres 2 mysterys

 

[inhimitrust]

The mystery appears to be the resurrection, as the "2 witnesses" are called up and that is when the 7th angels sounded, and this "after" the wraths of the first 6 trumps. Either this is "Christ" or the redemtion of all the saints who followed Him. But it is the "beast" that comes out of the abyss that "kills" them. So what does the "beast" in revelation represent, and which one, as there were 2 of them. Both the romans and jewish leaders killed Christ, so could they be a symbol of the Beast?
Paul says the "last trump". A trump symbolizes a signal or shout (read on Jericho). Revelation mentions 7 trumpets, 6 of them dealing with events setting up the events of the 7 vials and 7 seals. The "7th trump" sounds after the "2 wintesses" are called up. Is this considered a "last trump" or could it refer to a first trump". Why didn't Paul say at the "7th trump" to make it more clear? He said their "salvation" was drawing near, and this was before 70ad. Questions and more questions.

Romans 13:11"And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed."

Reve 17:17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Joel 3:1 "For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel[Jacob], Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. 3 "They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink. 4 "Moreover, what are you to Me, O Tyre, Sidon and all the regions of Philistia? Are you rendering Me a recompense? But if you do recompense Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your recompense on your head.


Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.

Galatian 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those [who are] Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Zech 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man[Jesus Christ], saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "

 

[Wreck n Sow]

Hello InHim

Zech. 8:20-23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: [21] And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also. [22] Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. [23] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I see this scripture as one for the last days. The 10 men are the remnant of the lost ten tribes. Jesus said "i have not come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel". When the scripture says they will take hold the skirt of him that is a jew, its speaking of the 10 commandments. They are already in a system that believes in Jesus, and when they seek the Lord through the scriptures they find they are to still be keeping HIS commandments. Im not getting all this out of this single scripture but i can show you many more that will prove out what im saying.

ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations

 

[Wreck n Sow]

Ill post something pertaining to it in how to obsevre sabbath.

 

[inhimitrust]

Hello InHim

Zech. 8:20-23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: [21] And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also. [22] Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. [23] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I see this scripture as one for the last days. The 10 men are the remnant of the lost ten tribes. Jesus said "i have not come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel". When the scripture says they will take hold the skirt of him that is a jew, its speaking of the 10 commandments. They are already in a system that believes in Jesus, and when they seek the Lord through the scriptures they find they are to still be keeping HIS commandments. Im not getting all this out of this single scripture but i can show you many more that will prove out what im saying.

ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations

Could be, but the bible isn't concentrated on the 10 commandments as much as bringing the 2 nations under one God and one King and loving others. Jesus did come for the "lost sheep", and it wasn't the corrupt priest and rulers of Jerusalem(nation of the House of Judah), which God took out in 70ad.
Love is used less in this world than the other "4 letter" word and also the hardest word to say. All the commandments and law rest on 2 commandments:

Mark 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?" 29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments [is:] 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This [is] the first commandment. 31 "And the second, like [it, is] this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.


Galatian 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those [who are] Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Zech 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man[Jesus Christ], saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "


1 corin 7:29But this I say, brethren, the time [is] short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing [it.] For the form of this world is passing away.

 

[newcreature777]

Rapture prophecy ♥ Sharing Divine Prophecy On The EndTimes



The rapture!

Many say,Where does it say Rapture in the Bible.Its everywhere in the Holy Bible,and one must use Supernatural Spiritual Eyes too See! Notice It Does not say Bible in the Bible,but Guess what the Bible is called,BIBLE.

The Rapture is when those who love Jesus go with Jesus Christ to heaven in a Twinkling of an eye,and those left behind will be forced to think weird explanations,like the multitudes of people who disappeared went into a ufo etc.

After the Rapture, the world will be in chaos immediately. Some people will be raptured while driving in their cars, causing the cars to crash. Some people will disappear while working the most important jobs in the country, and once they disappear, cities will be destroyed. Planes will crash, electricity will go out, and phone lines will be jammed for days.If you think THIS sounds bad, the Judgements are much worse. Dont Be Left Behind!

http://rulestheweb.com/coolwebsites




2 Corinthians 4:3-4

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[mysteryman]

take your rapture ,'new creature' and go preach to the creatures out in the woods, and i presume your an evolutionist too.
the only people onn your side on this one are the hollywood creatures who will take this fantasy all the way to the bank of Isreal, sorry to say that but it's no laughing matter to use such deceptive tactics in giant follywood screens but look at all the rest of those snakes and you'll see they align well with the beasts.
why give more ammo to the enemy. they allready make a mockery enough with all their antics.
now you got my ________________________________s on that let's not waste are time rehashing this mess._______ i've only been here a week, you might be less, but this subject has all ready been beaten to death i'm sure.

 

[newcreature777]

JESUS CHRIST Is Coming Soon Dont Be Left Behind!

ABBA Father God,I ask you usher your power,and I plead the Blood of Jesus Christ on Christian Forums,and I pray your will,and power is ushered on all of Christian Forums ,In the name of JESUS CHRIST.amen.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Chronicles 36:16

But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

 

[mysteryman]

JESUS CHRIST Is Coming Soon Dont Be Left Behind WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE NEW CREATURE AM I MISSING SOMETHING?


do i need to read the left behind series first?.
or do i have to go buy a new pair of running shoes for the chariot in the sky .
what's up can i go too?

 

[DeaconDean]

I posted this in an eariler thread concerning "The Rapture" and I submit it here:

Hi,
I really don't want to fuel the debate, but I really believe that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. Here's the reasons why; a) In the Book of Acts 1:9-11 it says: "9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (KJV)

b) Paul tells us in 1 Thess. 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (KJV)

c) Now, Rev 19:11-16 tells us this: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (KJV)

These are clearly two separate events. Acts tells us that Jesus ascended into heaven and the clouds received Him. In Revelation, Jesus is coming back on a horse, did Jesus ascend into heaven on a horse? No! Even Paul's commentary to the Corinthians makes no mention of returning on a horse. He has to come back on the clouds first, or the Bible would be in error. And I believe that the Bible is "The Inerrant, Inspired, Infailable, Word of God." The only way to reconcile these two passages is to say that on that great redeemption day, we will rise to be with him in the clouds, then turn right around and come back down to fight Satan and his armies. Furthermore, both of Paul's references never make one mention of Jesus ever setting foot back on the earth, but John's vision shows us that Jesus is coming back to defeat Satan.
d) Furthermore, the book of Revelations is a prophecy of the events to come upon an unsaved and unrepentant world. It is God's righteous wrath poured out. Did not Paul say that "Much more then, being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom. 5:9 KJV) "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised, from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thess. 1:10 KJV)
Now I may be wrong, and Lord forgive me if I am, but I can see no other meaning than there will be a rapture of the saints.

 

[richardo]

I posted this in an eariler thread concerning "The Rapture" and I submit it here:

Hi,
I really don't want to fuel the debate, but I really believe that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. Here's the reasons why; a) In the Book of Acts 1:9-11 it says: "9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (KJV)

b) Paul tells us in 1 Thess. 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (KJV)

c) Now, Rev 19:11-16 tells us this: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (KJV)

These are clearly two separate events. Acts tells us that Jesus ascended into heaven and the clouds received Him. In Revelation, Jesus is coming back on a horse, did Jesus ascend into heaven on a horse? No! Even Paul's commentary to the Corinthians makes no mention of returning on a horse. He has to come back on the clouds first, or the Bible would be in error. And I believe that the Bible is "The Inerrant, Inspired, Infailable, Word of God." The only way to reconcile these two passages is to say that on that great redeemption day, we will rise to be with him in the clouds, then turn right around and come back down to fight Satan and his armies. Furthermore, both of Paul's references never make one mention of Jesus ever setting foot back on the earth, but John's vision shows us that Jesus is coming back to defeat Satan.
d) Furthermore, the book of Revelations is a prophecy of the events to come upon an unsaved and unrepentant world. It is God's righteous wrath poured out. Did not Paul say that "Much more then, being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom. 5:9 KJV) "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised, from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thess. 1:10 KJV)
Now I may be wrong, and Lord forgive me if I am, but I can see no other meaning than there will be a rapture of the saints.

First, there will be a (rapture) catching up of the saints at the resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is described here by Paul.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

The deception about this event is over when it will happen. Notice in the passage that Jesus will come down from heaven. He has left heaven. Now read this verse in Acts.

He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets (Acts 3:21).

So, according to Scripture, can Jesus leave heaven before God restores everything, to rapture the saints? If Jesus leaves heaven before the tribulation, does that mean he restores everything for the Antichrist? Or does Scripture indicate that the rapture and resurrection will take place after the time of tribulation?

For more studies on the topic visit this site - last days mystery (dot) info

Keeping watch, Richard Perry