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Rapture, what?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by camaro540, Feb 12, 2002.

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  1. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    Hey all

    Well, I can't figure out how so many come to this rapture idea?

    I visited a few rapture websites today, and looked at all that was
    offered on this thereoy. I just don't get it? One website that I
    went to, went as far as quoting 2 Thes. 2:3-7, and then saying
    that those who do not except this rapture stuff was going to
    hell..... my,my,my, judging people to hell are we?

    Goodness, me..... Now, I feel it's very clear if one is to read
    2 thes. 2: 1-17 that it is very clearly stated that there is no
    leaving this earth before, or durring the time of the tribulation.

    2 Th. 2:1
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2:2
    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    2:3
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    2:4
    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2:5
    Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    2:6
    And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    2:7
    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    2:8
    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    2:9
    Even him (JESUS), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    2:10
    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    2:11
    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    2:12
    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    2:13
    But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    2:14
    Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2:15
    Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    2:16
    Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace ,

    2:17
    Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

    For some reason, lots of people believe that when Paul is telling
    the Thessalonians that when the Holy Spirit is removed (refered
    to in verses 6-7) that the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth
    all together..... Where did Paul say this? He simply states that
    the Holy Spirit is restraining Satan, and the Holy Spirit will be
    removed from that possition. He (Paul) didn't say anything
    about the Holy Spirit being removed from earth all together.....

    Another of the websites stated that because scripture says that:

    "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man." (Luk 17:26)

    that, that is proof of the rapture........

    Say what?

    If we remember correctly, Noah was not taken from this world
    but rather, protected from Gods wrath.... No where did or does
    it say that Noah was taken up to Heaven......

    This same website said that if one does not believe in the rapture
    that they make Gods word a lie.... Really, hows that?
    They go on to say that because of this verse:

    1Th 5:9
    For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    that we won't be here because God is pouring out His wrath upon
    the world..... Well, if you remember reading in revelations of the
    battle of Armageddon, you will surely remember this is the battle
    between God and satan, and his followers. This is the wrath that
    we are protected from, if we be for Him, and not against Him.

    Here is a quote from another website on the rapture:

    Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These Tribulation saints wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and his disciples suffered persecution we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.

    It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven

    HHhmmm, is this guy really being serious? I think it's to bad that
    a person would have to stoop to a comment like this just to try
    and make a point....

    Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These Tribulation saints wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and his disciples suffered persecution we should expect no better."

    Please read Mark chapter 13 (all of it), and Matthew chapter 24
    (again all of it, thanks :))

    We are warned over & over by Jesus that we will suffer, and yes,
    we should expect no better!! Many people think they are persecuted
    now, but lets think about that? Just because someone tells me I'm
    stupid for believing the word of God, or even strikes me because
    of they're disbelief, would you consider this persecution? What if
    my own brother where to never talk to me again because of my
    belief, would this be persecution?

    Believe me, we have not seen persecution yet! If someone is
    going to cry a little about what someone else says about them,
    I feel sorry for them. This is not about what people say or do to
    us, this is about Jesus Christ, and following Him no matter where
    He goes....

    I hope I have not offended anyone, this is not my intentions, I
    simply want to share some truth.... :)

    Patrick
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. mahebb

    mahebb New Member

    36
    +0
    First, a bit of advice: be very very careful when considering any end time teaching. Basically, most end time teachings and predictions are dung. Anyone offering an exact date for Rapture should be immediately discarded, as well as anyone who tries to teach without biblical backing. What is left are those who sound like they know what they are talking about, but take scripture out of context, as it sounds like the people you quoted did.

    I recommend anything written by Jenkins and LaHay, but specifically a book called, 'Are We Living In End Times?'.

    One thing I am fully convinced of is that we ARE living in end times, which is to say the final season of humanity. Jesus Himself tells us that no man will know the exact day of His return, but gave us MANY ways to recognize the season. As of right now, almost all of those signs have been fulfilled. The signs that remain have every possibility of happening right NOW!

    Anyway, if you want more info, I'd be happy to post it, but the gist is: the Rapture of Christ's chruch will happen, and you don't have to accept it to be saved, but I don't really understand how you could claim to be a Christian and NOT believe in it... the entire book of Revelation is all about the rapture, as well as tons of prophey from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jesus, and several of the NT authors...

    Anyway, hope that helped.
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>saying
    that those who do not except this rapture stuff was going to
    hell..... my,my,my, judging people to hell are we?

    It may help to look at the dictionary definition of these things. In order to have a great tribulation, that would mean that God is pouring our His wrath upon the World. The Bible promises us that God will never pour out His wrath on a Child of God. So if the Church were still here, there could be no great tribulation.

    Also, in order for the world to go into a time of great tribulation. The Spirit of Grace would have to be removed from the world. The world would then return to being under the law. I see this happening a lot recently, a returning to the law. Where there is no mercy, grace, or forgiveness. People are already beginning to have to pay the full price for their transgression or breaking of mans law. In Afganstan, where there is no grace, only law, you see people with their hands cut off, or women were beaten for showing a little bit of their ankle. This is the harshness of mans law, when there is no love, mercy, grace of forgiveness.

    The result is, if there is no grace in the tribulation period, then the only way to be saved would be to be myrtered and to die for your faith. Right now, there are people who choose to be myrtered, but that is a choice. Jesus died for us, so we do not have to die. That is why they are rewarded for giving their life for their witness and testimony for Christ.

    God's law is not harsh per se, but sin is harsh and cruel and the law of God exposes sin and the natural consequenses of sin. Apart from the law of God, the full impact of sin is never exposed.

    Romans 7:12-13
    Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

    Exceedingly sinful is a term that is a bit difficult to understand. But for me, it means the full cruelty of sin is exposed by the law. Because we know that sin can have a devestating impact on people, their family and their lives.

    There was a situation here yesterday, where a young man 19 years old, went into a drug store with a gun to steal drugs. After a four hour hostage situation, he ended up killing himself. That just shows how sad of a situation this world is in, when they try to do it on their own, apart from God. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  4. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Although the word "rapture" is not in the Bible, it's source is that the term "caught up" comes from a Greek word originally. The original Greek word which we have translated into "caught up" means "to snatch up". Latin translators then used "rapturo".
    I understand where you can see no difference between the 2nd coming of our LOrd(at Armageddon) & the previous rapture would make it a 3rd coming.
    What that does is make you think in terms of a "post trib" rapture. People get real fussy when you say that. lol. I know that the rapture occurs at the 7th trump(1 Cor 15:51-52). The last trump is at rev 11:15 & in the verses above it are the resurrection of the 2 dead prophets who had been prophesying for 3.5 yrs. So there is the resurrection of the dead first(2 prophets & the other dead in Christ), then the last trump is sounded but how long after? So we at least know it is 3.5 yrs into the tribulation. I dont know whether the prophets preached the 1st half or last half of the tribulation.
     
  5. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    Lets not get confused why Jesus died for us. He died so that
    we could have forgiveness of our sins, not so we wouldn't
    have to die a flesh death.
     
  6. M.O.G.

    M.O.G. New Member

    47
    +0
    M.O.G. will remain silent here, but will say Pre-Trib. Rap.!!

    Apologist, take over dude. :)
     
  7. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Haha. Thanks brother, but no thanks.
    Eschatology is a HEAVY subject that is pointless to be dogmatic about. There have been great men (and women) of God who were pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib and yet didn't agree on the order of events. I personally feel that the pre-trib rapture viewpoint fits best of the three choices, but I am not going to be dogmatic about it. The bible is not clear enough to be dogmatic about one position over another, so we can only speculate as to the order of events. We need to live our lives as though Christ could come at any moment and yet plan that He may not come for 1,000 years. Nobody knows but God and Him alone.

    God Bless
     
  8. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    God Takes His People Through Tribulation

    Even a casual reading of the Scriptures will reveal that God takes His people through tribulation rather than delivering them from it. Beginning with Noah and his family who were kept safe in the ark which was a type of Christ---they went right through the middle of the flood with torrential rains coming down from above and all the waters from below: "...All the fountains of the great deep [were] broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11).

    Another well-known example is the three Hebrews who were not delivered from going through the fiery furnace which was heated seven times hotter than usual. Indeed they went right through the middle of that persecution and the Lord went through it with them.

    Yet another example of God sending His saints through tribulation rather than keeping them from it, is Daniel being thrown into the den of lions. He went right through the middle of that persecution, but God sent an angel to close the mouths of the lions. That great saint brought glory to God in that tribulation.

    Like the Old Testament saints listed among the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 and all the Apostles who were martyred except John who suffered the persecution of Patmos, God sometimes lets His saints suffer and die for His glory.

    Beloved, let no man deceive you. The saints will go through the tribulation depicted in the Revelation. The Antichrist will be given power "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Rev. 13:7). Christians who are compromisers before the Great Tribulation are not going to be overcomers through it.

    Patrick
     
  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    You are half right Patrick. God did deliver some from the trouble rather than through it. Consider Lot in Sodom. God said He could not destroy the city until Lot and his family had fled. That was delivery 'from' that tribulation. There are scholars who believe the letter to the church at Philadelphia in the book of Revelation is speaking to the true church and Jesus tells them:
    "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." They believe this is a promise to the church of being kept 'from' the tribulation.

    God Bless
     
  10. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    This tells me that the rapture will be at the middle of the tribulation.

    Mark 13

    10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

    11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

    12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

    13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    14 "When you see `the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    15 Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out.

    16 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

    17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

    18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,

    19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again.

    20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

    21 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.

    22
    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

    23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    24 "But in those days, following that distress, "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

    25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    26 "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

    27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
     
  11. charlesj

    charlesj Member

    78
    +0
    What rapture.... what tribulation? Are we "reading into"(eisgesis) texts of the bible instead of "reading out of" (exegete)?
    Are we taking an idea of our own, because someone else has said it, and reading into the New Testament texts and coming up with a theory that doesn't exist?
    The New Testament books were all written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem (70 A.D.). Most of what you read in the N.T., when speaking of the "last days, the last hour, etc" is speaking of the "time of the end," NOT the "end of time."
    For example, The Book of Revelation, begins with and ends with
    "...MUST SHORTLY take place." (Rev 1:1 & 22:6). Also, "...the time is AT HAND." (Rev 1:3 & 22:10). If you look at Rev 22:10 you will find that the "sayings of this prophecy is NOT to be sealed...for the time is AT HAND." Daniel was given a vision and was told "to seal it up for the time is many days." (His vision was fulfilled in less than 500 years). Yet, John is told NOT TO seal his book up for the time is AT HAND.
    In Rev 1:7 we are told that "even those that pierced Him" would see Him. and in 21:9,10 John is shown "the bride of the Lamb" and was taken and shown "the New Jerusalem" coming down from heaven. What period of time do you think this is? Who is the "bride of Christ, the Lamb of God?"...the church This is first century time!! This book (Revelation) is speaking to the church (all made up of Jews for the 1st 8 yrs.) of the first century.
    When you look at Rev 17 you see the whore sitting in the seven mountains (Rome) . . . this is the HARLOT.
    1. she sits on seven hills, 17:9;
    2. she rules the earth in John's day, 17:18;
    3.she is a terrible persecuter of the saints, 17:6, 18:20,24;
    4. she is supported by the military might of Rome, 17:3,7;
    5. she is the leading commercial power on earth, 18:3, 11ff, 15-19;
    6. she is destroyed by her own military power, etc, 17:16,17.

    I don't have enough room in this reply to develope my thoughts on the "beast," but to touch on it, the "beast that was" is Nero and he died in 68 A.D. Nero was a persecutor of the saints until he died ("the beast that is not") The persecution continued again in Domition (the beast came back up, in Nero's spirit, out of the abyss in Domition).
    When someone speaks of the "end of time," some 2000 years after "it MUST TAKE PLACE SHORTLY" it makes me wonder if they've read the text or are they just speading what they've heard someone else say.
    I just read a fairly good book, DATING THE BOOK OF REVELATION, by Kenneth Gentry. This person has done a lot of research in this area and offers a volume of ideas. I don't agree with all Kenneth says, but a lot of his writing is very good.

    your servant in Messiah, Jesus

    charlesj
     
  12. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Sorry but the preterist viewpoint that all prophecy was fullfilled in 70 A.D. is negated by the fact that John wrote 1,2,3 John & REv near 90 A. D. & I'm sure he would have mentioned Christ's return. The fact that the mark of the beast was meant spiritually, instead of literally, well I couldnt BUY any bread with a spiritual mark could I?
    Solo 66 man's post quoting Mark is similar to Luke 17. "The Son of man coming in the clouds" mentioned in both Mark & Luke is come to pass in Rev. 14:14,"And I looked and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle."
    Since Rev. 11:15 is the last trump with the previous verses pointing to the dead in Christ rising first(2 prophets), we then realize that Rev. is not written in chronological order. Instead John is writing the visions as he sees them. This is further proven by the fact that after the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out(Rev.16) the angel still has the 7 full vials(Rev. 21:9) in his hand in the vision John sees in Rev. 21.
    Some people think that there is not a 3rd coming, but a 2nd coming only,(when CHrist wins at Armageddon & sets up HIs 1000 yr reign), and the rapture(catching up) is referred to as "The day of the Lord". I'm not sure myself if there are 2 events separated by years, They could be separated by moments. I don't see any difference in scripture between the rapture & the 2nd coming. Please point this out if someone else does.
    SO JUst because the rapture occurs at 11:15 does not mean that God's wrath was poured out beforehand, or that we have had to suffer. It means that we are at least 3.5 years into the tribulation becasue the prophets prophesied that long. But we may not recognize the tribulation when it starts. The antichrist may not appear until the "GREAT" tribulation which may be the last 3.5 yrs.
    KNowing that the rapture & 2nd coming, (or both), are at Rev. 14:14 & Rev. 11:15 is a better starting point. It is written in the way that the seals are broken, the trumpets are blown etc.Which is a simple way to show it to John. BUt in actuality the seals & trumpets are intertwined. Otherwise the 7 full vials would not again be in REv. 21:9.
     
  13. slm

    slm New Member

    5
    +0
    What better time and place for God to show His Glory through the Body of Christ than through the time of Great Tribulation. Can you imagine the number of souls that will be brought into the kingdom during this time? Did you come to Jesus during a good time in your life or during a very hard struggle?

    God can deliver His children through anything. Look at the three children of God who were delivered through the firey furnace in the Old Testament. And Daniel in the lions den. And Samson against a thousand soldiers. And the list goes on and on......

    Would it be safe to say that God could also deliver His children in the midst of a nuclear explosion or any other imaginable terror?

    Those who only need fear the times of Great Tribulation ahead of us are those who aren't totally leaning on and following the instruction of the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  14. charlesj

    charlesj Member

    78
    +0
    Debbie:
    You are in error on the dates of the writings of John. You said John wrote 1,2,3 John & Revelation NEAR 90 A.D. If this is around 90 A.D. then the temple was destroyed 20 years earlier, but then we have a problem, Rev 11 speaks of the temple still standing and was to be measured.

    Debbie, I've been from Rome to Waco studying the premillennial doctrines. I haven't seen anything that is good come out of the millennial teachings. Most of it is rote memory. The world has just wittnessed a premillenial group in Waco burn to death believing a man's teaching that they were in the 5th seal of the Book of Revelation. We have many historical documents of the Jehovah Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists (William Miller, Ellen G. White), and other groups that have led their members astray with these teachings. Most denominations teach this doctrine and all fall under the umbrella of premillennial.

    This is a very popular teaching and has sold a lot of books. I can
    remember, in the early 70's, buying a record (remember the hudge old phonograph records) with Jack VanImpe on it with a message about Revelation. As a young Christian, his message scared the fire out of me.
    I've been a Christian since August 1970 and have seen and heard a lot of predictions. They have all come and gone.

    I wrote an article "literal or spiritual" on this forum, please read it.

    You mentioned "coming in clouds" in reference to the Book of Revelation.

    Here are some thoughts on "coming in clouds."

    GOD COMING IN CLOUDS:
    1. Isaiah, Matthew and Revelation speak of God or
    Christ as coming on the “clouds of heaven.”

    Isaiah 19:1
    The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. KJV

    Matthew 24:30
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. KJV

    Matthew 26:64
    64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. KJV
    Revelation 1:7
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. KJV

    a. In Isaiah, it is evident that the prophet is talking
    about the conquest of Egypt by an army that is
    doing the will of God.
    b. In Matthew 26 Christ promised the high priest,
    Caiaphas, that he would see him coming on the
    clouds. He saw this in the fulfillment of the
    Roman army, doing the will of God, through Titus in
    70 A.D.,
    Luke 21:20
    20 ‘‘When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. NIV
    Luke records this period of time, 70 AD.

    c. In Revelation we see the same picture of an army
    doing the will of God. This happened in 70 AD.

    Sun, Moon, and Stars in prophecy:
    a. We first see evidence of the definition of
    the sun, moon and stars in Genesis 37
    where we run across Joseph. At this time,
    Joseph is a young man and is having
    dreams etc. He dreams a dream and tells it
    to his father:
    Genesis 37:9-10
    9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? KJV

    Notice: Joseph dreams that the SUN, MOON AND STARS will bow
    down to him.
    -his father knows immediately
    what these elements represent
    and rebukes Joseph.
    -the sun, moon and stars
    represented the household of
    Jacob.
    -the sun represented Jacob the
    father, the moon his mother
    and the stars represented his
    brothers.

    b. Later, this prophecy was fulfilled when
    Joseph was in Egypt and
    in a high government position and his
    family did bow to him.
    c. The sun represented the head of the
    house, a leader of the house.


    Sun, Moon and stars in Isaiah:

    Isaiah 13:10
    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. KJV

    Isaiah 14:12-13
    12 How you have fallen from heaven,
    O morning star, son of the dawn!
    You have been cast down to the earth,
    you who once laid low the nations!
    13 You said in your heart,
    ‘‘I will ascend to heaven;
    I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
    on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. NIV

    a. These verses in Isaiah need to be read in context. If you will read these chapters, you will learn that Isaiah is talking about the conquest of the Babylonia by the Medes, and that the darkness of the sun and moon and stars represented the fall of the Babylonian government.
    b. I don’t want to go into a long argument on Isaiah 14:12 and “Lucifer.” If you have been taught that “Lucifer” is Satan then you need to read the whole chapter instead of this one verse and you will find out that this is speaking of a man, a king at that time. It is king Nebuchadnezzar.
    It is not my purpose to argue here on Satan.

    Matthew 24:29
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: KJV

    Here, in Matthew you see a reference to the fall of the Jewish nation. The sun, moon and stars are made up of the Sanhedrin, that is, the high priests, scribes (some Pharisees
    such as Nicodemus of John 3) and elders. These made up the rulership of Israel at this time.


    I spoke in my writing on the beginning and ending of the Revelation, but you failed to speak of "...it MUST shortly happen" Rev 1:1 & 22:6. And also "the time is at hand" Rev 1:3 & 22:10.
    John is told NOT to seal this book up for the time is at hand. This was 2000 years ago!

    It's late, got to get shut eye, I will continue on this later.

    Your servant in Messiah, Jesus
    charlesj
     
  15. Halleluiah

    Halleluiah "Repent and be baptized.." ACT 2:38

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    THE LAST DAY

    *Jesus Returns in the Sky with a Shout
    *The Last Trump will Sound
    *The Dead in Christ will rise first and join Christ in the Sky
    *THe Living in Christ will be Caught up in the Sky (Raptured)
    THEY DO NOT EXPERIENCE THE 2nd DEATH
    THEY ARE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE
    *The Unsaved Dead Rise Next
    *All of the Unsaved will Try to Hide from God's Wrath
    THEY ALL BURN UP IN THE 2nd DEATH


    About His 2nd Coming...

    The "Rapture" of those living IS part of the Resurrection at the end of the Great Tribulation at the LAST trump

    THERE is NO second chance to get saved after the Resurrection of the Saints (alive and dead)/Rapture of the living

    DO you believe that those who don't get caught up in a supposed Pre-Trib/1st phase of Christ's Return rapture get a second chance at salvation, when the Resurrection (part of the Rapture) of the Saints would've already taken place?

    ...the bible NEVER states a two-phase return of Jesus Christ or a "secret" rapture where people just suddenly disappear--because " behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they ALSO which pierced him" REV 1:7 and

    "the wheat and tares (SAVED and WICKED) grow together until the END OF THE WORLD. MAT 28:20.


    Where does the bible say that Christ comes twice in His 2nd coming?? NOWHERE in the bible says that!

    Here's other references backed up with scripture:
    http://bcbsr.com/survey/revtim.html
    http://wedie.org/rapture.htm

    So do YOU think it makes SENSE and actually believe:

    1) ...in a "secret" Rapture of the believers (Church disappearing suddenly)?
    2) ...that God gives a 2nd chance to repent to those supposedly "left behind" if YOU think the true believers already have been "secretly" taken up (disappeared from people on the face of the earth before the 7 years)
    3) ...that the Rapture does not occur at the LAST DAY?

    If the Rapture did occur that way by then believers (dead then living) would've already been TRANSFORMED to their heavenly bodies (the Resurrection--which IS the same as the Rapture (Rapture is pointing to the living).

    Please tell me if those 3 views truly make ANY sense... because simply they DON'T.

    Only the Rapture can occur at the END at the Last Day!

    **I believe that God's wrath is reserved ONLY for the unbelievers during the Great Tribulation and after. And the saints (true believers,who don't receive the mark) will never experience His Wrath... but only the harsh persecution of the Anti-Christ/Beast, False Prophet, and unbelievers that will eventually lead to death until Jesus Christ returns (2nd Coming) at the end of the whole 7-year mess.
     
  16. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
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    Amen Hallelujiah!!!
    Charlesi- "The time is at hand" does not bother me. A premilleniest is not the same as a cult. So all the scholars are wrong & part of the NT books were not written in 90a.d. as my KJV reference states they were. Ok, so why didnt anyone write about the 2nd coming of Christ since 70 ad? You mean no one noticed? You mean I'm living in the 1000 year reign of Christ & dont know it? The judgement books have been opened & I missed it? The mark of beast on their foreheads was a spiritual one? Only those with a mark of the beast on their hand bought any bread? Where is your evidence that satan is bound?
    With all the preterists forums, I can't understand why they won't allow futurists to discuss the bible on thi site without debating preterism first.
    If I wanted to debate preterism I would go to a preterist website or a reincarnation website=same difference.
     
  17. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
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    Christian
    Private
    I agree with apologist. We do not need to understand all that will happen. I do not think it will be easy for us. I am sure that we will most definitely be tested. When it happens keep your heart, soul, and mind, only on God and his promise of a New World. Do not fear the one who can take your life... instead stay with the one who gives Eternal Life. Pray for yourself and all others that they may obtain mercy thru grace. Do not turn from God...Walk in Love.

    :) LOVE
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    In Revelation 3:10, Jesus was addressing only the church at Philadelphia, not the entire church. This is why we find Christians referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:1-4, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4). There can be no Christians outside of the church, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    How do we know if we're Philadelphians? Would Laodiceans think they were Laodiceans or Philadelphians?

    I don't believe Revelation 3:10 even requires a pre-trib rapture. I believe some faithful Christians with "little strength" (Revelation 3:8) could be kept from temptation and trial (Revelation 3:10) by dying before the tribulation begins (compare Isaiah 57:1), others by fleeing to a place prepared in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6), where they will be protected from harm (Revelation 12:14-16). There must be a remnant of Christians who are still "alive and remain" at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes to gather them together (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Mark 13:26-27).

    But some faithful Christians will be tried in tribulation unto death (Revelation 2:10-11). They will suffer and die in the war, famine, natural disaster, and persecution of the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), just as faithful Christians have been allowed to suffer and die in these things throughout history (Acts 14:22).


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  19. charlesj

    charlesj Member

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    Hi Debbie:
    I am sorry that your KJV lists dates of books. The KJV also has placed chapters and different divisions in the Greek writings. As you know, the Greek has no punctuation. In other words, man has added (and taken away, or not even translated) a lot of scripture. Not all of it has been bad, but if youR KJV has dates later than 70 A.D. then it is error. Many scholars point to early dates on the N.T. books today due to research and newer evidence.

    You asked “why didn’t anyone write about the 2nd coming of Christ since 70 A.D.? I am sure if you were to go to the early 2nd century writers you can almost find anything, but the New Covenant has been “sealed” with the Blood of our Lord and no man can add nor take away from it since the “testator” (Jesus) has died. ----

    “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” -- Hebrews 9:16,17

    The testator (Jesus) has died and the testament (covenant) is in force. We don’t need anymore writings for it is sealed. You can tell that to those who think the Book of Mormon is a “latter day revelation.” No, sorry folks, it’s sealed, the testator has died.

    You said, “you mean I am living in the 1000 year reign of Christ and don’t know it?”
    1. Where does it say that Christ will reign on EARTH for a 1000 years (or for that matter
    one year)?
    2. Notice those that reigned with Him are the ones who had their heads cut off? (Rev 20:4) (by the way, this is the only place 1000 yrs is mentioned)
    3. I’ve never said that Satan was bound, where are you getting this?
    4. The “fact” that the premillennialist is surrounded by cults, for all cults teach the premillennial doctrine, does not mean I am calling you a cult. If you took it that way, it wasn’t meant that way.
    5. There is a site, I don’t know this person & I am not sure if he is premill or amill, but you need to take a look at the “missed-prophecies” going back to the 2nd century. You will not find any preterist (amillennilist) in this group. The site is located at: http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/5766/misprophecy.html
    6. I don’t think it will wake you up, but you need to know all your buddies that teach this error.

    7. You said, “ If I wanted to debate preterism I would go to a preterist website or a reincarnation website=same difference.”


    Debbie, the last statement of yours does not make a whole lot of sense. Why would I want to debate the preterist (amillennialist)? How do you get the equation preterist or a reincarnation website = same difference ???? Explain how the preterist believes in reincarnation.

    Now, if you want me to show you how a premillennialist must believe in recarnation, then please ask and I will. I can show you what the true premillennialist teach and why they must believe in reincarnation.


    Anyway, enough of that….

    Your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
    Charlesj

    I think this is worth quoting and should be the attitude of us all:

    “In my religion, argument forms a mode of divine service, as much as prayer: reasoned debate on substantive issues, debate founded on respect for the other and made possible by shared premises. That kind of contention is not only a gesture of honor and respect for the other, but in the context of the Torah, it forms the gift of intellect on the altar of the Torah…” Rabbi Jacob Neusner, A RABBI TALKS WITH JESUS, p. 8
     
  20. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
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    Charlesi, The entire Bible did not get "sealed up" or have a back cover until wayyyyyyyyyyyyy after 70 a.d.
    You mention not one author who wrote about the 2nd coming of CHrist had actually happened in the past. Don't you think they would have included these writings when they assembled the Bible's back cover?
    I don't believe you have any evidence Christ returned again.
    I believe preterism is like reincarnation because preterists believe the 2nd coming has already occurred, there was a new heaven & earth, that all nations are ruled by Christ, that Satan is bound, & that judgement books have been opened. The mark of the beast in our hand or forehead cannot be taken spiritually or else we couldn't buy or sell anything.
    If the judgement books have been opened then it is akin to reincarnation now.
    Why do preterists ruin every end time thread by forcing a debate on preterism instead? Why not go to a preterist website? Why won't you allow us to debate end time prophecy?
     
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