Rapture timing

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Bible2+]

vinsight4u said in post 512:

Chapters 12, 13, and more are part of the mystery of God section that is jumbled.

Revelation chapters 11 to 14 show from 4 different angles the same future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), which will occur after Revelation chapters 6 to 10 and before Revelation chapters 15 to 21, and which will legally end at the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15).

In Revelation 10:7, "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

In Revelation 10:7, the "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).

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vinsight4u said in post 518:

the day of the LORD's vengeance /Isaiah 34
the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion

Isaiah 61:2

In Isaiah 61:2, "the day of vengeance of our God" can refer to the day of Jesus' 2nd coming, when "he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (Revelation 19:15c).

And 2 Peter 3:10-13 shows that in the day of the Lord will also occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 520:

"The day of the Lord" is a term associated with judgment, not of salvation."

.... and not a post-tribulation resurrection for sure, there will not be one

The gatherings after the days of the tribulation are gatherings of mortals for separation .... all believers found will enter and populate His millennial kingdom .... all found in unbelief will be rejected [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

No doubt .... the day of the Lord is all about judgment [Psalms 2; Jude 1; Revelation 6:12-17]

The future day of the Lord, which will stretch from Jesus' 2nd coming, through the subsequent millennium, and up to the great white throne judgment, will be one long time period of judgment from God. For it will begin with the judgment at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), then extend through the judgment during the millennium (e.g. Zechariah 14:19, Revelation 2:26-29), then include the judgment on Gog, Magog, and Satan after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), and then end with the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

But the future day of the Lord will not consist only of judgment. For it will begin with the physical resurrection and changing of the church into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and then the rapture (catching up together/gathering together) of the resurrected and changed church to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and then the church physically reigning on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

And the physical resurrection and changing of the church into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the ultimate salvation of the church.

The ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

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Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Psalm3704]

Its no wonder why you believe in another gospel than the Gospel preached by Jesus... you the pre-tribber false teacher who preach that SALVATION means "being taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation.".

One day you will have to face Jesus for preaching another gospel....good luck with that.

-Maybe Jesus will have mercy on you if you stop being so foolish.-

Just a word of advice that you will probably ignore because nothing can stop you to go on, and on,.and on,.in your endlessness foolishness... its your nature you are born like that .ALAS !

You should relax Riberra, you're getting emotional.

This is those being gathered on earth after the tribulation to bring the scattered Jewish people back to the holy land after being scattered by war. There's no rapture here. They're not being caught up into the air and return down to earth after the tribulation.

Basically there's a "Pre-Trib Rapture" before the tribulation follow a "Post-Trib Gathering" after the tribulation to unite all of Christ's people in the holy land ushering in the millennium.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.”’

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”


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Isaiah 49:8-23 Good News Translation (GNT)
8 The Lord says to his people,
“When the time comes to save you, I will show you favor
and answer your cries for help.
I will guard and protect you
and through you make a covenant with all peoples.
I will let you settle once again
in your land that is now laid waste.
9 I will say to the prisoners, ‘Go free!’
and to those who are in darkness,
‘Come out to the light!’
They will be like sheep that graze on the hills;
10 they will never be hungry or thirsty.
Sun and desert heat will not hurt them,
for they will be led by one who loves them.
He will lead them to springs of water.

11 “I will make a highway across the mountains
and prepare a road for my people to travel.
12 My people will come from far away,
from the north and the west,
and from Aswan in the south.”
13 Sing, heavens! Shout for joy, earth!
Let the mountains burst into song!
The Lord will comfort his people;
he will have pity on his suffering people.

14 But the people of Jerusalem said,
“The Lord has abandoned us!
He has forgotten us.”
15 So the Lord answers,
“Can a woman forget her own baby
and not love the child she bore?
Even if a mother should forget her child,
I will never forget you.
16 Jerusalem, I can never forget you!
I have written your name on the palms of my hands.

17 “Those who will rebuild you are coming soon,
and those who destroyed you will leave.
18 Look around and see what is happening!
Your people are assembling—they are coming home!
As surely as I am the living God,
you will be proud of your people,
as proud as a bride is of her jewels.

19 “Your country was ruined and desolate—
but now it will be too small
for those who are coming to live there.
And those who left you in ruins
will be far removed from you.
20 Your people who were born in exile
will one day say to you,
‘This land is too small—
we need more room to live in!’
21 Then you will say to yourself,
‘Who bore all these children for me?
I lost my children and could have no more.
I was exiled and driven away—
who brought these children up?
I was left all alone—
where did these children come from?’”

22 The Sovereign Lord says to his people:
“I will signal to the nations,
and they will bring your children home.
23 Kings will be like fathers to you;
queens will be like mothers.
They will bow low before you and honor you;
they will humbly show their respect for you.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
no one who waits for my help will be disappointed.”​

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Jeremiah 31:1-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 “At the same time,” says the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”

2 Thus says the Lord:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”

3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!
You shall again be adorned with your tambourines,
And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
5 You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria;
The planters shall plant and eat them as ordinary food.
6 For there shall be a day
When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim,
‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,
To the Lord our God.’”

7 For thus says the Lord:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O Lord, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the Lord—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all.
13 “Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
And the young men and the old, together;
For I will turn their mourning to joy,
Will comfort them,
And make them rejoice rather than sorrow.
14 I will satiate the soul of the priests with abundance,
And My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, says the Lord.”

​

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[Biblewriter]

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also [are] ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

//The wicked will get destruction when the day of the Lord comes.
But the church/brethren will get salvation.

Scriptural terminology is exceedingly precise. "The day of the Lord Jesus" Is a term distinctly different from the term "the day of the Lord."

 

[Another Lazarus]

Why all nations will weep when they see Jesus appear on the cloud ?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so Amen

All kindred of the earth shall wail because they are LEFTBEHIND.

Rapture is not the return of Jesus Christ but the appearance of Son of Man on the cloud to take away his saints from the great tribulation and every eye shall see Him.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[Straightshot]

"Basically there's a "Pre-Trib Rapture" before the tribulation follow a "Post-Trib Gathering" after the tribulation to unite all of Christ's people in the holy land ushering in the millennium."


Precisely .... this is what the related scriptures teach

Easy to see and understand .... but accepted by few in these last days

Most of the divides of the professing "church" are lost in the fog of a lie .... the devil's lie on the matter who wants those living just before he is cast to the earth to enter his own subjection to the Lord's coming period of unprecedented judgment .... he wants to take many humans with him [Revelation 12]

 

[JLB777]

I don't think so Charlie. The evidence against you are just below, also with the link to page 16 of this thread revealing who really initiated this argument.

Oh my! Well lookie here, shame shame shame on you, you are not so honest!

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/rapture-timing.7950283/page-16#post-69760067

Your vain attempts to distract from the truth of the scriptures, seems to be your only defense

Well call me desperate because once again you've been easily refuted just by using the next verse.

How can there be a post-tribulation rapture when the elects are gathered from heaven? In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down....silly clown!

Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I denied, rebuked and refuted you here. No post trib rapture!

You have never refuted a thing, but only proven that you err, not knowing the scriptures.


24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

All His people who are in heaven and all His people who are on earth will be gathered together.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

All His people will be gathered together, both those who are in heaven who have previously died, and those who are on earth who are alive and remain, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

This happens at His coming.

• The resurrection and rapture happen together at His coming.
• The destruction of the antichrist happens at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

JLB

 

[JLB777]

Why all nations will weep when they see Jesus appear on the cloud ?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so Amen

All kindred of the earth shall wail because they are LEFTBEHIND.

Rapture is not the return of Jesus Christ but the appearance of Son of Man on the cloud to take away his saints from the great tribulation and every eye shall see Him.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

So when all the world see's the true Christ coming in the clouds and mourns, then they will all go follow the false christ?

Now that's funny!


Here's the truth -

The same coming of the Lord to gather His people, is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

All His people will be gathered together, both those who are in heaven who have previously died, and those who are on earth who are alive and remain, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

This happens at His coming.

• The resurrection and rapture happen together at His coming.
• The destruction of the antichrist happens at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

JLB

 

[JLB777]

"Basically there's a "Pre-Trib Rapture" before the tribulation follow a "Post-Trib Gathering" after the tribulation to unite all of Christ's people in the holy land ushering in the millennium."


Precisely .... this is what the related scriptures teach

Easy to see and understand .... but accepted by few in these last days

Most of the divides of the professing "church" are lost in the fog of a lie .... the devil's lie on the matter who wants those living just before he is cast to the earth to enter his own subjection to the Lord's coming period of unprecedented judgment .... he wants to take many humans with him [Revelation 12]

The gathering of His people at the resurrection happens at the same time as the rapture.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:17


The resurrected ones and raptured ones will be caught up together, at His coming.

The same coming that destroys the antichrist.

This happens at His coming.

• The resurrection and rapture happen together at His coming.
• The destruction of the antichrist happens at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

JLB

 

[Straightshot]

Post tribulation thinking is bogus and should never be entertained

Totally flawed JBL

The "first" type of resurrection to eternal life comes pre-tribulation, the next at the end of the tribulation for the martyrs of those who will become believers during the period

There will be no resurrections just after the days of the tribulation, but a gathering of the mortal survivors of the tribulation [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

If not mortals gathered, there would be no humans to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth which will last for 1000 years .... but there will be

 

[Riberra]

The "first" type of resurrection to eternal life comes pre-tribulation,

Do you have a Bible verse to prove that ?

the next at the end of the tribulation for the martyrs of those who will become believers during the period

The resurrection of the Christians that will be beheaded during the reign of the beast is called the first resurrection in the Bible... Revelation 20:4-6
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There will be no resurrections just after the days of the tribulation, but a gathering of the mortal survivors of the tribulation ][Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

The Bible is clear the resurrection of the dead believers and the translation of the believers still alive and our caught up and gathering to meet Jesus in the air will happen UNTO the Coming of Jesus not 3 1/2 or 7 years before 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

This is the rapture ( caught up and gathering together ) of the resurrected Saints and the translation of the believers still alive (elect) into immortal body to meet Jesus in the air unto the Coming of Jesus.....right after that, will come the destruction of Satan's seed Matthew 13:36-43(very wicked people) as in the days of Noah and as in the days of Lot. Luke 17:30

- Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the Son of man IS REVEALED .-

If not mortals gathered, there would be no humans to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth which will last for 1000 years .... but there will be

The mortal survivors that God will chose to populate the Earth during the milennium will not be taken and gathered but will be left to where they are.

The mortal survivors that will be taken... will be gathered to be killed by Jesus and their body will be eated by the eagles.

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Luke 17
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

 

[Bible2+]

Psalm3704 said in post 526:

Ezekiel 39:21-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward . . .

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

This won't be fulfilled until after the future millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10). Ezekiel 39:22 means that near the end of the safe time of the future millennium (Ezekiel 38:11), the mortal Israelites living on the earth will have become complacent and backslidden away from God (Ezekiel 39:26,7). So, after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), as a punishment, God will let them be taken into captivity (Ezekiel 39:23-29) during the Gog/Magog time (Ezekiel 38:11-13). God will then bring judgment against Gog and Magog, and the mortal Israelites will return to being faithful to God (Ezekiel 39:21-29).

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The Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 529:

Most of the divides of the professing "church" are lost in the fog of a lie .... the devil's lie on the matter who wants those living just before he is cast to the earth to enter his own subjection to the Lord's coming period of unprecedented judgment .... he wants to take many humans with him [Revelation 12]

Regarding Revelation 12, note that the woman there represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Straightshot said in post 529:

Most of the divides of the professing "church" are lost in the fog of a lie .... the devil's lie on the matter who wants those living just before he is cast to the earth to enter his own subjection to the Lord's coming period of unprecedented judgment .... he wants to take many humans with him [Revelation 12]

It is sometimes asked whether Satan invented the whole idea of a pre-tribulation rapture.

It is possible that Satan invented the false hope of a pre-tribulation rapture, insofar as he is the father of lies (John 8:44b). But this doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that those who hold to the pre-trib view are Satanic. For they hate Satan, and love God and his Word. They may have just fallen under one of his deceptions out of fear of the tribulation, or because people they respect highly have (mistakenly) assured them that pre-trib is the only possibility.

If Satan did invent the pre-trib false hope, he may have done so in order to weaken the church, to keep it from having any "root in itself" (Matthew 13:21), to keep it from having to face its fear of the tribulation and overcome that fear (cf. Revelation 2:10-11, Hebrews 2:15).

Satan could also use the pre-trib view as a great weapon with which to batter the faith of some Christians during the suffering of the tribulation. He could say something like:

"O, you poor souls! So utterly deceived by that liar YHWH! How cruel of him to promise you a pre-trib rapture and get all your hopes up, only to pull the rug out from under you at the last moment! How he is laughing at you now in your suffering! Doesn't he even admit it in Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23? Yes, of course he does, just to spite you. How he hates you, my friends, how he hates all of humanity. All he wants to do is cause suffering, all this tribulation suffering. And this is only a prelude to the eternal torture which he will delight in forever. What a foul and cruel tyrant he is! But I will tell you a secret. He is not all-powerful as he pretends to be. Wasn't he fearful when man built the Tower of Babel? Of course he was, he even admitted it himself in Genesis 11:6. For he knows that when mankind becomes united, nothing can be restrained from it; it can do anything. Even storm heaven and overthrow him. And so he destroyed the unity of mankind, out of fear for himself and his tyranny".

Satan could go on: "But look here, my friends. I do not hate you. I am no tyrant. Who is feeding you? Who is feeding your starving, crying little ones, while YHWH doesn't lift a finger to help you or them? I AM feeding you. I AM helping you. I AM your God, your true Lord, your beneficent Master. Fall down and worship me, Lucifer, and my human Son [the Antichrist], and His image. And receive His mark on your hand or forehead. And together we will fight against YHWH and destroy his foul tyranny once and for all. YHWH is coming soon to try to stop this unity which we are forging, to try to stop the blessed illumination and power which I, Lucifer, am bringing to all of mankind. But we will win, for nothing can be restrained from us. We can do anything, so long as we do not allow him to break our unity".

Satan could continue: "So, come, my friends, it is time for you to formally renounce YHWH, to curse him to his face and before all the world, that you might completely break free from his hypnotic spell, which has blinded you so long to his utter cruelty and hatred for mankind. And it is time, my friends, for you to formally announce your complete devotion to me, Lucifer, and to my Son, and to worship us in Spirit and in Truth, that you might receive the full Illumination of My Spirit within you, and feel my seething Power within your soul. You will become new creatures in Me, new creatures of Light, and Love for all mankind".

And with speeches such as this, Satan could utterly wear down the defenses of some already-completely-exhausted saints, whose strength of faith could not survive the long, horrible suffering of the tribulation, not only the suffering of themselves, but of their innocent little ones as well. They will be defeated by their doubts: "How could a good God let this happen to me? How could a good God let my innocent little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death while he sits up in heaven and does nothing? No rapture, no manna, nothing. Not even a word of encouragement. Utter silence. Is he dead? Is he evil? What could possibly be the point of all this suffering? I can no longer serve such a 'God' as this. I will serve that God who proves his love for me by helping me, by feeding me, by feeding my precious little ones. You will know them by their fruits. Now I have seen the ultimate fruits of YHWH, and now I have seen the ultimate fruits of Lucifer and His Son. It is plain as day who is truly good and who is truly evil".

And so the love of many will grow cold toward YHWH (Matthew 24:12). They will show that they love their stomachs (Philippians 3:19) and their little ones more than they love God (Matthew 10:37b). They will show that their love for God wasn't based on who he is, their Creator (John 1:3) and Crucified Savior (Acts 20:28) and the Almighty Infinite God compared with whom all of mankind together is an infinitesimal speck of dust, worth less than nothing (Isaiah 40:15-18). No, their love for God was conditional upon what he gave to them in this life: wealth, happiness, health, food, clothing, and the promise of a pre-trib rapture. Take all these things away in the tribulation, and they, unlike Job (Job 1:21-22), will have no more reason to worship God, but only a reason to curse him (Job 2:9-10, Isaiah 8:21-22).

This will be the ultimate fruit of the prosperity gospel, the Americanized gospel of wealth and plenty and a pre-trib rapture: apostasy in the tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1), a complete ignorance of such ideas as 1 Peter 4:12-13, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and 1 Timothy 6:9-12, a complete denial of such ideas as Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:12, and Revelation 14:12-13.

--

The lies which were presented above as being what Satan could say during the tribulation should be answered, in case any one of them might be niggling away at some believer's faith. They were presented to serve as vaccines, as it were, so that if a believer is in fact confronted with these lies during the future tribulation, his spiritual immune system, his faith, will have already been prepared to overcome them (Ephesians 6:16).

First, it was said to believers who were in the tribulation that God was cruel to promise them a pre-trib rapture and get all their hopes up, only to pull the rug out from under them at the last moment. The truth is that God has never promised believers a pre-trib rapture. No scripture ever refers to any such thing.

Second, it was said that God was laughing at the suffering of the believers in the tribulation, and Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23 were referenced. The truth is that God doesn't ever laugh at the suffering of believers (Psalms 116:15). Proverbs 1:26 is addressing those who have rejected God (Proverbs 1:24-33). And Job 9:23 is just the wrong opinion of Job during his great suffering; not everything he says is correct. For example, he says in Job 19:11 that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him, when in fact it wasn't God's wrath at all, but Satan's wrath. During the future tribulation, Satan is going to have his cake and eat it too. Because of the mistaken pre-trib idea that all of the tribulation is God's wrath, instead of it being mostly Satan's wrath, Satan will get to cause a whole world of suffering during the tribulation and then blame it all on God and say that God did all of it, and people will believe Satan. He will get to present himself as the good guy, and God as the evil tyrant, when it will be Satan doing the evil, just as it was Satan doing the evil against Job.

Third, it was said that God hates all of humanity. The truth is that God hates only some of humanity, the vessels of wrath, those predestined by him to damnation before they were born (Romans 9:11-22). Now this will be where the rubber meets the road for many: Can they accept that the Infinite Creator has the right to do with his infinitesimal creatures (Isaiah 40:15,17) whatsoever he wants (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 4:11), or will they insist that God is unjust, evil, to predestine some people to damnation before they have done anything at all? To accept the former shows humility before God; to insist on the latter shows human, nay, Satanic, pride, for it attempts to set God's creatures above God himself: It is saying that infinitesimal humans are more important than the Infinite God and his will and pleasure. The truth of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) is the ultimate test of our humility before God. No doubt Satan will employ this truth during the tribulation as his ultimate weapon to try to turn people away from God.

Fourth, it was said that all God wants to do is cause suffering, all the tribulation suffering. The truth is that God loves to care for his creatures (Psalms 104:10-18). He only brings suffering (chastening) to those he loves when they fall into sin and need to repent (Revelation 3:19). And the suffering which comes upon those who are already repentant (Acts 14:22, John 16:33, Philippians 1:29) can still work good things in them, such as patience (Romans 5:3) and a greater hope in the eternal glory to come (2 Corinthians 4:17). Suffering is an innate part of the fallen creation; it is universal (Romans 8:22). It is not like God himself is actively behind every instance of suffering. There can simply be natural disasters. And Satan and evil men cause tremendous amounts of suffering (e.g. Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7,10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4).

Fifth, it was said that God will delight in the eternal torture of the unsaved. The truth is that God will not take any pleasure in the unsaved's suffering per se (cf. Ezekiel 33:11). The only pleasure that he will take in connection with people being unsaved is that they will provide him an opportunity to show his wrath and to make his power known (Romans 9:22) forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Mark 9:45-46). This again will be where the rubber meets the road for many: Will they accept that the Holy God has the right to eternally torture the unsaved as punishment for their free-willed sins (Romans 6:23, Revelation 21:8, James 1:13-15), or will they claim that they know better than God himself what is just and what is not just? If they accept the former, they will show humility before God, while if they claim the latter they will be placing themselves above God, making themselves the judge of God, and so will show the ultimate extent of their human and Satanic pride.

Sixth, it was said that God is not all-powerful as he pretends to be, and that he was fearful when man built the Tower of Babel; Genesis 11:6 was referenced. The truth is that God is all-powerful (Jeremiah 32:17,27), and he wasn't fearful for himself at all at the Tower of Babel. For all of mankind together is an infinitesimal speck, less than nothing compared with the Infinite, Almighty God (Isaiah 40:15,17). He was fearful only for what a fallen, united mankind, in its overweening pride, would end up doing to itself and the planet, or even to other planets, such as creating some huge scientific device which would end up blowing the earth to smithereens, or colonizing Mars and some moons of Jupiter only to utterly defile them with sin and pollution.

Seventh, it was said that Satan doesn't hate mankind, and that his feeding of mankind during the tribulation will prove his love for mankind. The truth is that Satan has wanted to murder all of mankind from the beginning (John 8:44). That is why he deceived Eve into committing sin (Genesis 3:4), so that all of mankind would become mortal and die (Romans 5:12). Now his hope is to drag as much of mankind as possible with him into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15). He will do anything for men in the tribulation, give men anything they want in the tribulation, so long as he gets to see them ultimately tortured forever just as he will be (Matthew 25:41,46). So when he offers men bread and water and clothing and "love" during the tribulation, this will be a ruse, nothing but bait to get men onto the hook of rebellion against YHWH God, to get them to ultimately suffer eternal damnation (Revelation 14:10-11).

Eighth, and last, it was said that a good God would not let an innocent little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death during the tribulation while he sits up in heaven and does nothing. The truth is that this life, even if we live to be 100 years old, is nothing but a nanosecond compared with eternity. And death is better than life in this world for those who are saved, and for little babies who have been elected by God to salvation. For their death will take them into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8). Their death will be no loss, but gain for them, far better than any life in this fallen world (Philippians 1:21,23). Only those who wrongly love this world (1 John 2:15) and their life in it (John 12:25) are horrified by death. Satan uses the fear of death to keep people in bondage to himself and to his ways (Hebrews 2:15), to keep their sights on temporal things instead of on that which is eternal (2 Corinthians 4:18).

 

[Psalm3704]

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

This won't be fulfilled until after the future millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10).

We went over this last week!

Read what Ezekiel 39:21 said Bible2. How many times will God send His wrath and judge the world in the future?

Ezekiel 39:21 (NKJV) "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.

Ezekiel 39:21 (ESV) "And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them.

Ezekiel 39:21 (NIV) “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them.

Ezekiel 39:21 (NCV) "I will show my glory among the nations. All the nations will see my power when I punish them.​

Also read Ezekiel 39:22. It said "So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."

Will the remnant of Israel who survive the coming great tribulation continue to walk in the dark and not know who their God is until after the next millennium?

Don't you get tire of putting your foot in your mouth?










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[Psalm3704]

You have never refuted a thing, but only proven that you err, not knowing the scriptures.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

All His people who are in heaven and all His people who are on earth will be gathered together.

I don't need to refute anything here as Mark already refuted you when he said the elects are gathered from heaven.

In a rapture, people go up, they down come down.............silly clown!

No post-trib rapture here either!

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

All His people will be gathered together, both those who are in heaven who have previously died, and those who are on earth who are alive and remain, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

JLB said:

All His people will be gathered together, both those who are in heaven who have previously died, and those who are on earth who are alive and remain, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.​

That is NOT what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Obvious twisting of scripture.










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[Psalm3704]

So when all the world see's the true Christ coming in the clouds and mourns, then they will all go follow the false christ?

Now that's funny!

Here's the truth -

The same coming of the Lord to gather His people, is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.

Now that's even funnier!

How can that be a post-trib rapture when you just admitted Christ returns to gather His people and destroys the antichrist?

The tribulation end afters the antichrist dies, not before!

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!

This happens at His coming.

• The resurrection and rapture happen together at His coming.
• The destruction of the antichrist happens at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

And I see you stuck your one-size-fits-all straw man into 3 different posts.

Write all kinds of nonsense on top of the page, than stick your straw man at the bottom to make yourself look good. I feel sorry for all the unsuspecting readers.










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[JLB777]

Post tribulation thinking is bogus and should never be entertained

Totally flawed JBL

The "first" type of resurrection to eternal life comes pre-tribulation, the next at the end of the tribulation for the martyrs of those who will become believers during the period

There will be no resurrections just after the days of the tribulation, but a gathering of the mortal survivors of the tribulation [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

If not mortals gathered, there would be no humans to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth which will last for 1000 years .... but there will be

There is no mention of "post" trib rapture in this post.

Rather than ad hominem remarks, please show me from the scriptures that I posted about this subject from 1 & 2 Thessalonians, where the coming of the Lord to gather His people is not the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.

The gathering of His people at the resurrection happens at the same time as the rapture.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:17


The resurrected ones and raptured ones will be caught up together, at His coming.

The same coming that destroys the antichrist.

This happens at His coming.

• The resurrection and rapture happen together at His coming.
• The destruction of the antichrist happens at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

You have some scriptures here to deal with, that show us the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming as He gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture.

Your going to have to do better than personal insults and opinion, in the face of such overwhelming truth.



JLB