Rapture timing

[Postvieww]

Do you have any proof at all, anything at all from the bible that can support your nonsense? The fact is, your arguments goes over the cliff falling flat on it's face when examined under scrutiny as Paul's writings pretty much destroyed your theory in chapter 1, verses 8-10. Paul's definition of that day is the day of Christ's return in wrath and vengeance: 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10. The fact is, you just can't make it work. Let's put it this way, what you say doesn't constitute as fact simply because you claim otherwise.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

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More knucklehead eschatology. Glorified by His saints does not mean He returns with His saints. It's referring to "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:39.

Do you realize if He comes with His saints as you claimed when He returns in wrath and vengeance to fight the a/c in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, this completely refutes, a post-tribulation rapture?

A post-trib rapture happens after the tribulation, not during the tribulation when Christ comes to fight the a/c and judges the rest of the world oh wise guy. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 happens during the tribulation, not after.

You certainly have a knack for putting your foot in your mouth. Nice work debunking yourself.

By the way, wrong saints too.

Who was He referring to when He said "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:39?

Need a hint? It's not the church in heaven.






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Do you have any proof at all, anything at all from the bible that can support your nonsense? The fact is, your arguments goes over the cliff falling flat on it's face when examined under scrutiny as Paul's writings pretty much destroyed your theory in chapter 1, verses 8-10. Paul's definition of that day is the day of Christ's return in wrath and vengeance: 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10. The fact is, you just can't make it work. Let's put it this way, what you say doesn't constitute as fact simply because you claim otherwise.


1 Corin 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corin 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corin 1: 13 For we write none other things unto you, that what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

All of Paul’s comments on the “day of the Lord are not about wrath and vengeance. Yes there are two aspects to the day of the Lord, one is wrath and vengeance and one of Jesus being glorified in His saints, saints being found blameless, spirits being saved and rejoicing.

2 Thess 1: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“everlasting destruction” aspect # 1

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

“glorified in his saints” aspect #2

Where is your proof Paul didn’t know what he was talking about? Just reposting the same passage with the same half of the story highlighted does not your case make.



More knucklehead eschatology. Glorified by His saints does not mean He returns with His saints. It's referring to "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:39.

Did you throw up a dart and hit this scripture? You have the nerve to say “More knucklehead eschatology” to me?????

Matthew 23: 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This passage has absolutely nothing to do with 2 Thess 1:10 if you imagine so , it is incumbent on you to make the connection, good luck.

Do you realize if He comes with His saints as you claimed when He returns in wrath and vengeance to fight the a/c in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, this completely refutes, a post-tribulation rapture?

NO, don’t think so, I am sure you can try to make it appear that way.

A post-trib rapture happens after the tribulation, not during the tribulation when Christ comes to fight the a/c and judges the rest of the world oh wise guy. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 happens during the tribulation, not after.

Just what is the precise marker that designates the end of the tribulation?

You certainly have a knack for putting your foot in your mouth. Nice work debunking yourself.

Not bad yourself.

By the way, wrong saints too.

Really now, so the saints Paul referred to in 2 Thess 1 :10 are not the church ??? hmmmm.

2 Thess 1: 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Thess 1: 12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

How do you with a straight face talk about me putting my foot in my mouth and say I am using “knucklehead eschatology”. Are you independent Baptist? Just wondering.



Who was He referring to when He said "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:39?

You need to firm up your connection to 2 Thess 1:10 first before you start quizzing me!

Need a hint? It's not the church in heaven.

I have repeatedly told you there is no resurrected church in heaven!

 

[Postvieww]

Watch this video and put on your thinking cap for a minute.

Post-tribbers have been using Matthew 24:13 to mislead Christians for decades.

If Christians are suppose to go through the tribulation and endure God's wrath to the end in order to be saved, how will those Christians who have already died the last 2000 years be saved since they cannot go through the tribulation?

Do you post-tribbers (not necessarily you) not understand Jesus was telling us to resist satan's temptation till the day we die, this is what endure to the end means, not endure the wrath of God.

















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Watch this video and put on your thinking cap for a minute.

If you consider this to be Holy Spirit anointed teaching then I understand why we are having this debate.

Post-tribbers have been using Matthew 24:13 to mislead Christians for decades.

And I thought Daniel, Jesus, Paul and John taught the post trib resurrection, how silly of me.

If Christians are suppose to go through the tribulation and endure God's wrath to the end in order to be saved, how will those Christians who have already died the last 2000 years be saved since they cannot go through the tribulation?

You have never read where I said that.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Do you post-tribbers (not necessarily you) not understand Jesus was telling us to resist satan's temptation till the day we die, this is what endure to the end means, not endure the wrath of God.

We will not endure the wrath of God in the tribulation, but we will face the wrath of satan and many Saints will be killed for their faith. Rev 6:9 Rev 13:7 Dan 7:21

 

[Postvieww]

Bible2, read this carefully and reevaluate yourself.

Matthew 7:15-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’​

He's talking about Christians giving false testimonies about prophecies. Jesus told us we will know the false prophets and can easily spot them by their fruits. These Christians also prophesied and thought they were doing what they believe to be righteous. But Christ tells them depart from Me. And eventually they are sent to hell (cut down and thrown into the fire).

Do you realized you're just exposing yourself as a Matthew 7 type Christian to everyone reading your thread? 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 and Hebrews 12:22-29 are very explicit scriptures. They're not refutable as they clearly indicate 1) a resurrection and deliverance before the tribulation, 2) a post-trib rapture is impossible.

The only thing anyone can do is deny what those scriptures clearly stated (which will get themselves into much trouble during the tribulation), and give their own reasoning, a Matthew 7 rebuttal.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

.
Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.


.
Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.











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Psalm3704 said:

He's talking about Christians giving false testimonies about prophecies. Jesus told us we will know the false prophets and can easily spot them by their fruits. These Christians also prophesied and thought they were doing what they believe to be righteous. But Christ tells them depart from Me. And eventually they are sent to hell (cut down and thrown into the fire).

Do you realized you're just exposing yourself as a Matthew 7 type Christian to everyone reading your thread? 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 and Hebrews 12:22-29 are very explicit scriptures. They're not refutable as they clearly indicate 1) a resurrection and deliverance before the tribulation, 2) a post-trib rapture is impossible.

The only thing anyone can do is deny what those scriptures clearly stated (which will get themselves into much trouble during the tribulation), and give their own reasoning, a Matthew 7 rebuttal.


Apply this to your denial of the clearly stated truth of 2 Thess 2:1-3

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Our gathering clearly stated to be at His coming.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ clearly refers to the coming and gathering of verse 1 .

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This verse clearly states “that day” which refers to the coming and gathering on the day of Christ verses 1 &2.

 

[Postvieww]

Psalm3704 said post #319

The only thing anyone can do is deny what those scriptures clearly stated (which will get themselves into much trouble during the tribulation), and give their own reasoning, a Matthew 7 rebuttal.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

It is clearly stated that He will deliver us from wrath to come.

It is also clearly stated elsewhere that we may face the wrath of satan and be killed for our faith. So it is clear the wrath in this passage is the wrath of God.

It does not clearly state how God will do that.

It does not clearly state or even imply we will be taken to heaven to accomplish this!

 

[JLB777]

Is this what you're looking for?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.



.
Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.


.
Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
.

The Lord Jesus comes from Heaven to Jerusalem, and gathers all His saints to be with Him in the air, and does not go back to heaven in some great "U -turn", but continues to earth with all His people He gathered in the resurrection/rapture.

His feet will stand on the mount of Olives, and he will destroy all those wicked on earth, and will take His place as King over all the earth.

This is what Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse to His disciples, and what Paul described in both 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light...
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
Zechariah 14:1-7,16-17


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


The coming of the Lord is described here in 1 Thessalonians -

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

[ It's interesting to think that you actually believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is somehow before the tribulation, when so many will be martyred for Him, during the tribulation???]


The resurrection of the dead in Christ is first. All those who are Christ's that have died, will be raised first, before the rapture.

Then, those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together with them [the resurrected ones] in the air.

This event, whereby all those who have died and all those who are alive and remain, occurs at His coming.

This is the second coming, not the first coming, but the second coming.

This event is described as the Day of the Lord, and also the Day of Christ.

Jesus will gather all His people together, and destroy the wicked as he returns to earth, in which by the brightness of His coming, the antichrist will be destroyed.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The very same coming of the Lord that gathers His people is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


If you want to believe and teach that Jesus' coming by which He resurrects/raptures His people and destroys the antichrist, is somehow before the great tribulation, then that's between you and they Lord, but that notion is nowhere to be found in scripture.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

It is clearly stated that He will deliver us from wrath to come.

Yes, Jesus returns from Heaven to pour out the wrath of God upon the wicked on earth, and He will gather both the dead in Christ together with those who are alive and remain in the air to be with Him as He "tramples the winepress of the wrath of God".

We will be with Him in the air, as the wrath of God is being poured out.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


JLB

 

[Postvieww]

Psalm3704 said post #319

The only thing anyone can do is deny what those scriptures clearly stated (which will get themselves into much trouble during the tribulation), and give their own reasoning, a Matthew 7 rebuttal.


Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Your dead shall live;

Together with my dead body they shall arise.

Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;

For your dew is like the dew of herbs,

And the earth shall cast out the dead.

It is clearly stated there will be a resurrection

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,

And shut your doors behind you;

Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,

Until the indignation is past.

It is clearly stated God says for us to enter our chambers and shut the door behind us and HIDE until the indignation is past.

It is not clearly stated a removal to heaven will accomplish this.

It is not clearly stated anywhere in scripture anyone will ever hide in heaven behind closed doors from anything

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place

To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

It is clearly stated the Lord will come to execute judgement.

The earth will also disclose her blood,

And will no more cover her slain.


1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,

Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,

Leviathan that twisted serpent;

And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

It is not clearly stated or implied anyone will be taken to heaven anywhere in this passage!

 

[Postvieww]

Psalm3704 said post #319

The only thing anyone can do is deny what those scriptures clearly stated (which will get themselves into much trouble during the tribulation), and give their own reasoning, a Matthew 7 rebuttal.

.

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

It is clearly stated “you have come” past tense to Mount Zion….

It is clearly stated our names are registered in heaven present tense.

It is not clearly stated or implied this is a future removal of the church to heaven.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

It is clearly stated those things that are shaken are removed.

It is clearly stated those things which cannot be shaken will remain.



28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

It is clearly stated God is a consuming fire.

There is no pre-trib resurrection clearly stated or implied anywhere in this passage or any other in all of scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

I am disturbed at the continual labeling of opposing interpretations of scripture as "heresy." This is more often done by post-tribbers calling pre-trib "heresy." But now I see a pre-tribber calling post-trib a "heresy." The Bible very distinctly says that there will be a rapture. But it most certainly does not say when this will take place. all positions on when this event will take place are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures, as opposed to what these scriptures actually say. And most of these varying interpretations actually turn on varying interpretations of the exact meanings of the words used in these scriptures.

So let us be careful about how we interact. Debate what you feel the scriptures actually mean. And if you feel led to do so, debate them energetically. But do not condemn those who interpret these scriptures differently. When you do this, you are expressly disobeying the instructions of the Holy Spirit, as found in Romans 14:1-15:7.

 

[Revealing Times]

The Lord Jesus comes from Heaven to Jerusalem, and gathers all His saints to be with Him in the air, and does not go back to heaven in some great "U -turn", but continues to earth with all His people He gathered in the resurrection/rapture.

His feet will stand on the mount of Olives, and he will destroy all those wicked on earth, and will take His place as King over all the earth.

Hello Brother, I am only here to point out my understandings of scriptures, I am not here to denigrate your belief or anyone else's, so let us just speak in Christ Jesus about these events.

I do not think Jesus does a u-turn, or that the Saints do a u-turn and comes back to earth. I think Jesus calls us to heaven with a loud voice (as a trump) that only those filled with the Holy Spirit will hear. We are called to the Marriage of the Lamb, and just like in Jewish tradition, we stay in the marriage chambers for 7 days (7 years) with the bridegroom (Jesus). Then we come back with Jesus on White Horses, Immediately After the Tribulation. So there is no u-turn either way.

Zechariah 14:1-7,16-17

All of this is true, because all of God's scriptures are true. But why does any of these scriptures preclude the Rapture from happening first, then us Saints coming back with Jesus on the Day of the Lord ?

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Or in the KJV...28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. ( I think people actually means this will be Jesus Second Time being on earth, when we know via scriptures he ascended to the Father and returned already. THIS VERSE, imho, is saying that Jesus came and died the FIRST TIME for Sins, but the SECOND TIME he comes for salvation of Israel and those in distress of the Beast who have become Christians/did not take the Mark of the Beast. )


(ESV) 28 So Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to take away the sins of many people. And he will come a second time, but not to offer himself for sin. He will come the second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. ( Why does this have to mean that this is only his second trip to earth ? And why does this have to mean all Saints are waiting for Salvation ? Can't this just mean that the Saints who were not Raptured [Israel who finally accepts their Messiah (Zec.12:10) as does many people who give their lives to Christ during the Tribulation] are awaiting Salvation from Jesus ? And us Saints that were Raptured come back with Jesus (Rev. 19) on white horses ? And the Second time is referring to the second time Jesus comes to earth to SAVE......That is why Paul makes a distinguishment between the first trip and the second trip per SALVATION. There are two-trips made to earth relating to salvation, not two trips made to earth. We know Jesus told Mary not to touch him, for he had not yet ascended to the Father, then 8 days later Jesus told doubting Thomas to pit his fingers in his wounds. I can not find a "Second Coming" mentioned anywhere in scriptures per se. Yes a second coming as per Salvation, but that in no wise limits Jesus coming to the earth, imho.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

This is true, Jesus comes to Rapture us to Heaven. He has to come and call us to Heaven, but this doesn't preclude us Saints from coming back with Jesus Christ in Rev. 19, it is only a SECOND COMING OF SALVATION. The Second Time Jesus came to save.

[ It's interesting to think that you actually believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is somehow before the tribulation, when so many will be martyred for Him, during the tribulation???]

The only people martyred for Jesus during the Tribulation will be those who became Christians after the Rapture, which will be many no doubt. If I was not a Christian and my Christian mother, father and sister all passed away at the same time, along with millions of other Christians, I would give my life to Christ and refuse to serve the Beast, wouldn't the lot of us ?


"SECOND COMING" is a misnomer. It is the "SECOND COMING OF SALVATION" that is being referred to.

 

[Postvieww]

I am disturbed at the continual labeling of opposing interpretations of scripture as "heresy." This is more often done by post-tribbers calling pre-trib "heresy." But now I see a pre-tribber calling post-trib a "heresy." The Bible very distinctly says that there will be a rapture. But it most certainly does not say when this will take place. all positions on when this event will take place are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures, as opposed to what these scriptures actually say. And most of these varying interpretations actually turn on varying interpretations of the exact meanings of the words used in these scriptures.

So let us be careful about how we interact. Debate what you feel the scriptures actually mean. And if you feel led to do so, debate them energetically. But do not condemn those who interpret these scriptures differently. When you do this, you are expressly disobeying the instructions of the Holy Spirit, as found in Romans 14:1-15:7.

I am disturbed at the continual labeling of opposing interpretations of scripture as "heresy." This is more often done by post-tribbers calling pre-trib "heresy." But now I see a pre-tribber calling post-trib a "heresy." The Bible very distinctly says that there will be a rapture. But it most certainly does not say when this will take place. all positions on when this event will take place are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures, as opposed to what these scriptures actually say. And most of these varying interpretations actually turn on varying interpretations of the exact meanings of the words used in these scriptures.

Amen

So let us be careful about how we interact. Debate what you feel the scriptures actually mean. And if you feel led to do so, debate them energetically. But do not condemn those who interpret these scriptures differently. When you do this, you are expressly disobeying the instructions of the Holy Spirit, as found in Romans 14:1-15:7.

Let me add to what you’ve have said .

When engaged in debate and one side of the debate offers as support for their position phrases like I only listen to the Holy Spirit, or God spoke this or that to me or any other comments to let everyone else know how spiritual one is, whether intended or not that is by default saying the other person could not possibly have a valid argument. One would think all of us who name the name of Christ pray, study and strive to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes we all miss the mark. So in the end, our final authority is the written word of God.

Good advice Biblewriter!

 

[keras]

The Bible very distinctly says that there will be a rapture. But it most certainly does not say when this will take place. all positions on when this event will take place are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures, as opposed to what these scriptures actually say. And most of these varying interpretations actually turn on varying interpretations of the exact meanings of the words used in these scriptures.

The Bible does not distinctly say there will be a rapture to heaven. The pivotal passage in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, tells how Jesus will gather His own, sending out His angels; Matthew 24:31, at His Return for His Millennial reign.
It will be a spiritual rising and transportation to where He is; descended from heaven and in the clouds of the earth. A shift of location, in a similar manner that Philip was moved. Acts 8:5-40
Obviously this means that the Lord's people are still on earth at that time.

The problem of belief in the many various theories of what will happen in the end times, is of God's making. He has made the prophesies hard to understand and people jump to conclusions about what they think the Lord should do. This results in their being locked into that belief and it is almost impossible to convince them of their error. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 42:18-20
1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Do not deceive yourself, if anyone seems to be worldly wise, let them become as a fool, that they may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

 

[Postvieww]

The Bible does not distinctly say there will be a rapture to heaven. The pivotal passage in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, tells how Jesus will gather His own, sending out His angels; Matthew 24:31, at His Return for His Millennial reign.
It will be a spiritual rising and transportation to where He is; descended from heaven and in the clouds of the earth. A shift of location, in a similar manner that Philip was moved. Acts 8:5-40
Obviously this means that the Lord's people are still on earth at that time.

The problem of belief in the many various theories of what will happen in the end times, is of God's making. He has made the prophesies hard to understand and people jump to conclusions about what they think the Lord should do. This results in their being locked into that belief and it is almost impossible to convince them of their error. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 42:18-20
1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Do not deceive yourself, if anyone seems to be worldly wise, let them become as a fool, that they may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

Hi Keras,

Just for the record the quote attributed to me was a quote from Biblewriter. It was my error that caused the confusion. I copied his quote and failed to designate he said it. I agreed with an amen because he did not say rapture to heaven only rapture, I prefer to use resurrection but the term rapture is thrown around so much I sometimes do not clarify. Sorry for the confusion, I caused it.

 

[keras]

Hi Keras,

Just for the record the quote attributed to me was a quote from Biblewriter. It was my error that caused the confusion. I copied his quote and failed to designate he said it. I agreed with an amen because he did not say rapture to heaven only rapture, I prefer to use resurrection but the term rapture is thrown around so much I sometimes do not clarify. Sorry for the confusion, I caused it.

Yes, I know Biblewriters belief of a pre-trib rapture. He will be among the many who will be shocked to be still on earth after the Lord's Day of wrath.
Your view is incorporated in your name: postview.
Jesus Himself, is the One who very distinctly says: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13

 

[ebedmelech]

*There is only one rapture, in which living Christians will be caught up. That will be when Jesus returns to judge the world in righteousness. it is concurrent with the resurrection!

*Believers that died in Christ will be resurrected BEFORE living Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air.

The pre-trib rapture is simply a misunderstanding of scripture and what it has to say on the matter.

*1 Corinthians 15:20-58 is speaking on the resurrection.

*1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is speaking on the resurrection.

The resurrection INCLUDES the rapture!!!

 

[Revealing Times]

*There is only one rapture, in which living Christians will be caught up. That will be when Jesus returns to judge the world in righteousness. it is concurrent with the resurrection!

*Believers that died in Christ will be resurrected BEFORE living Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air.

The pre-trib rapture is simply a misunderstanding of scripture and what it has to say on the matter.

*1 Corinthians 15:20-58 is speaking on the resurrection.

*1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is speaking on the resurrection.

The resurrection INCLUDES the rapture!!!

My journey from not understanding when the rapture was to understanding, why and how I got there.

My first thought to myself was: "Explain how Revelation 19 can happen without a Rapture !! It clearly says we come back from Heaven, after marrying the Lamb, with Jesus Christ, on white horses."

So do we go to Heaven and Marry Jesus or not ? And it seemed like it was before we fight the Beast/Kings and their Armies on earth. So I had a concrete starting point for my journey. Everything else must explain this chapter that seems to suggest, THERE HAS T BE A RAPTURE.

My credo on scriptures is to take them for what they say, and if two scriptures contradict themselves, to find out why, because God does not contradict Himself. This works for me, I never go into A contradiction or supposed contradiction with preset beliefs, that is a hindrance to finding out the truth.

So if Rev. 19 can not happen without a Rapture, then I understood the Rapture could not happen at the same time Jesus Returned to the earth to destroy the wicked and save Israel and to save those who had not accepted the Mark of the Beast, and to resurrect those beheaded during this tribulation period, the ones who missed the Rapture, because they were not Christians at the time. I understood this just didn't add up. We are IN HEAVEN, marrying the Lamb, so we have to come back from Heaven, where we had to GO TO because the Holy Word says we are there, in Heaven......So there had to be a Rapture. Through much study I understood there has to be a rapture before Jesus comes back to rule on earth.

So then, I set about to figure out why God's word seemed to contradict itself in many scriptures, for I know God is not the author of confusion, Satan is. So I took the verses that seemed to contradict with the Pre-tribulation beliefs, to see if they stood up, for if they did, I was going to have reevaluate Rev. 19 and see if I had read the passage(s) wrong.

But while reading all the verses, I begin to understand why people might think there was no pre-tribulation rapture, but I also saw what I thought to be a major flaw in these beliefs. I began to understand that every scripture that looked contradictory, was only that way because it was assumed that the Rapture was at the Same time as the "Second Coming" which is actually the Second Coming of Salvation, the first was to save from sin, the second is to save Israel and those who have become Christians. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks, Joseph did the same thing, Joseph was rejected of his brothers, and saved the Gentiles, (Egyptians from Starvation) then the second time his brothers came to Joseph, HE SAVED THEM....Ditto Jesus. He was rejected by Israel, and saved the Gentile world from Sin, the second time he will save Israel his brothers who rejected him, sold, mocked him etc....AMEN !!

But I understood through study and revelation, that if the Rapture precedes the "Second Coming of Salvation" that there would be no contradictions in the verses. Jesus stated he would return Immediately after the Tribulation, but with a Rapture pre-tribulation, we Saints in Heaven in Rev. 19 could also return with Jesus Immediately after the Tribulation, so there was no contradiction in this verse now.

The "Last Trump" I studied for awhile. There are 62 mentions of trumps in the bible. Trumps are blown at the Feasts, there is a last trump to every feast. There is a last trump to every Isthmian games held in Corinth ever two years (at that time). Joel 2:1 didn't work for me because it was called a warning, and Paul said in Corinthians that we would be changed in the twinkling of and eye, not warned, and there is another trump sounded at Joel 2:15. The Trump argument just did not sway me that it had to be the Last Trump in Revelation. There are many trumps in the bible, various kinds that came at various times for various reasons. Many Trumps are blown at the end of things, if Jesus died on passover, and he did, and returns at another feast day, this might be the reference here, I just do not know, but we can't just assume this is the Last Trump in Revelation, especially when there are Seven Vials of Judgment left.

Then I studied "The Day of the Lord" in depth, and that is Judgment on the earth no doubt. But Second Thessalonians chapter 2 is discussing how the Gathering unto Christ will happen before the Day of the Lord, fear not, for before the day of the Lord, both the apostasy and the Anti-Christ must happen/come to pass. The Thessalonians feared they had missed the Rapture. SUBJECT OF CHAPTER: As concerning the Gathering together unto the Lord........Or the Rapture. The Subject was the Rapture, not the Day of the Lord or the Anti-Christ. Another supposed contradiction accounted for.

"The First Resurrection"...... in our numbering things we are limiting God. God spread out Daniels 70 Sevens decree over three time periods. Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the living, every person resurrected in Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection or the resurrection of the living, in Christ Jesus. The Second resurrection will be the resurrection of the dead, after the 1000 year reign. God has no time limits, He does not live in a realm of time per se. So I understood, there are truly only two resurrections. Those who will live forever will be quickened and will be raised first, not all at the same time per se. Then those who will die the second death will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign.

Matthew 24:31 was Jesus calling the elect, gathering them to come fight the fight with him. But I noticed it said the Angels would gather the elect from one end of Heaven to the other. We are in Heaven marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) So no contradiction is left by us reading this in the plain English that it is written in, literally. Mark says he gathers the elect from Heaven and earth, well that is what we pre-tribbers say, there will be elect in Heaven (the Raptured) and on earth (Israel/lost souls who became Christians after the Rapture). Contradiction gone again, We can be in Heaven, marrying the Lamb, and be called from the four corners of Heaven, by Gods angels. (Rev 19 still intact)

Last but not least I wondered how Rev. 7:14 could happen, these came out of the Great Tribulation. And how Satan could be given the power to overcome the Saints. Then I saw that the Rapture being pre-tribulation had no effect on the fact that there will be Christians who become Christians after the Rapture, these will be persecuted for their Faith, even as Israel is protected, probably in Petra/Edom. Contradiction again solved, the Rapture of the Saints has no bearing on the Saints who became Saints after the Rapture being persecuted by Satan. So this was my journey, from not knowing if the Rapture was Pre, Mid or Post tribulation, unto what I deem the truth, I came to this decision after 30 years, with much research and study, and guidance from God. I entered the fray with no preconceived notions.

Revelation 19 hit me like a ton of bricks. There has to be a Rapture for Rev. 19 to be true, that was he origin or genesis of my understanding on the subject. Then I tried the understanding by fire so to speak.

God Bless

 

[Bible2+]

Psalm3704 said in post 318:

Do you realize if He comes with His saints as you claimed when He returns in wrath and vengeance to fight the a/c in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, this completely refutes, a post-tribulation rapture?

Actually, it doesn't. For Jesus' coming FOR his saints and WITH his saints will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

And it is at this post-tribulation descent that Jesus will fight and defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:19-21).

Psalm3704 said in post 318:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 happens during the tribulation, not after.

Actually, in its context, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 happens after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming. For 2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven", which is only at his 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30).

And 2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels", which is only at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:31, Matthew 24:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26).

And 2 Thessalonians 1:9 refers to the future presence of the Lord in glory and power, which is only at his 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30).

And 2 Thessalonians 1:10 refers to when Jesus "shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe", which is only at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Psalm3704 said in post 318:

By the way, wrong saints too.

Who was He referring to when He said "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:39?

Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of the unbelieving elect Jews who will be living in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, after the tribulation, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

*******

Psalm3704 said in post 320:

Post-tribbers have been using Matthew 24:13 to mislead Christians for decades.

If Christians are suppose to go through the tribulation and endure God's wrath to the end in order to be saved, how will those Christians who have already died the last 2000 years be saved since they cannot go through the tribulation?

In its context, Matthew 24:13 refers to those Christians who will go through the tribulation in our future (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). And note that no scripture says or requires that the entire tribulation will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time.

For example, note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. And the day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Bible2+]

Postvieww said in post 321:

All of Paul’s comments on the “day of the Lord are not about wrath and vengeance. Yes there are two aspects to the day of the Lord, one is wrath and vengeance and one of Jesus being glorified in His saints, saints being found blameless, spirits being saved and rejoicing.

Good point.

For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2+]

Revealing Times said in post 330:

I do not think Jesus does a u-turn, or that the Saints do a u-turn and comes back to earth. I think Jesus calls us to heaven with a loud voice (as a trump) that only those filled with the Holy Spirit will hear.

Regarding Jesus not doing a U-turn, that's right. But note that the (mistaken) pre-tribulation-rapture view does require that Jesus will do a U-turn. For that view says that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is pre-tribulation. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16 requires that Jesus himself will descend from heaven at that time. So he would have to descend from heaven, and then do an immediate U-turn back up into heaven.

Regarding the church not doing a U-turn, that's right (except for believers who will be living in Jerusalem at the time of the rapture). For the rapture is not a popping up in the air and right back down, but a catching up and a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Revealing Times said in post 330:

We are called to the Marriage of the Lamb, and just like in Jewish tradition, we stay in the marriage chambers for 7 days (7 years) with the bridegroom (Jesus).

Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) -- which could last for 7 literal days -- won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[Psalm3704]

His feet will stand on the mount of Olives, and he will destroy all those wicked on earth, and will take His place as King over all the earth.

This is what Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse to His disciples, and what Paul described in both 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light...
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
Zechariah 14:1-7,16-17

Zechariah 14, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is not about the Olivet Discourse. The Discourse are His signs leading to the end times and His return given to the church in preparation to know the times and seasons of His coming and to be ready when the time comes. The seals of Revelation are the fulfillment of His prophetic signs for the church.

Matthew 24:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”​

Zechariah 14 is a quick summary of the second half of the tribulation from the time Jerusalem gets invaded leading to the end when Christ judges the world.

1st Thessalonians doesn't give signs leading up to the rapture. "But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2. The book of 1st Thessalonians focuses on the rapture of the church and Christ coming as the bridegroom before the tribulation. There's no detail of the tribulation in this book.

2nd Thessalonians happens during the second half of the tribulation, not before nor before the tribulation. The book deal with the antichrist and Christ's second coming in power and great glory to judge the world and defeat the a/c, and a final gathering (not a rapture) of all His people regardless of Jew or gentile.

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The gathering after the tribulation is not the rapture. His people will be gathered from heaven and earth (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27).

During the tribulation, the church is in heaven waiting until after the indignation (Isaiah 26:20). Christ comes with His angels to execute judgement upon the earth (Matthew 25:31, Matthew 13:40-42, Jude 1:14), not with the church.

Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.​

Now here's the gathering of His people on earth after the tribulation. It's a gathering at the end to bring the scattered Jewish people on earth back home to the holy land. Not a rapture.

Plus do you see a rapture in there?

Ezekiel 39:21-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.”’

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”​

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Isaiah 49:8-23 Good News Translation (GNT)
8 The Lord says to his people,
“When the time comes to save you, I will show you favor
and answer your cries for help.
I will guard and protect you
and through you make a covenant with all peoples.
I will let you settle once again
in your land that is now laid waste.
9 I will say to the prisoners, ‘Go free!’
and to those who are in darkness,
‘Come out to the light!’
They will be like sheep that graze on the hills;
10 they will never be hungry or thirsty.
Sun and desert heat will not hurt them,
for they will be led by one who loves them.
He will lead them to springs of water.

11 “I will make a highway across the mountains
and prepare a road for my people to travel.
12 My people will come from far away,
from the north and the west,
and from Aswan in the south.”
13 Sing, heavens! Shout for joy, earth!
Let the mountains burst into song!
The Lord will comfort his people;
he will have pity on his suffering people.

14 But the people of Jerusalem said,
“The Lord has abandoned us!
He has forgotten us.”
15 So the Lord answers,
“Can a woman forget her own baby
and not love the child she bore?
Even if a mother should forget her child,
I will never forget you.
16 Jerusalem, I can never forget you!
I have written your name on the palms of my hands.

17 “Those who will rebuild you are coming soon,
and those who destroyed you will leave.
18 Look around and see what is happening!
Your people are assembling—they are coming home!
As surely as I am the living God,
you will be proud of your people,
as proud as a bride is of her jewels.

19 “Your country was ruined and desolate—
but now it will be too small
for those who are coming to live there.
And those who left you in ruins
will be far removed from you.
but now it will be too small
for those who are coming to live there.
And those who left you in ruins
will be far removed from you.
20 Your people who were born in exile
will one day say to you,
‘This land is too small—
we need more room to live in!’
21 Then you will say to yourself,
‘Who bore all these children for me?
I lost my children and could have no more.
I was exiled and driven away—
who brought these children up?
I was left all alone—
where did these children come from?’”

22 The Sovereign Lord says to his people:
“I will signal to the nations,
and they will bring your children home.
23 Kings will be like fathers to you;
queens will be like mothers.
They will bow low before you and honor you;
they will humbly show their respect for you.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
no one who waits for my help will be disappointed.”​

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Hebrews 9:28 parallels 1 Thessalonians 1:10, it points to a pre-trib rapture and negates any idea of post-trib rapture. Look at how it reads in other translations. There's no salvation if you have to go through the tribulation, and in many cases, people dying.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Hebrews 9:28 (CSB) so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.

Hebrews 9:28 (NCV) so Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to take away the sins of many people. And he will come a second time, not to offer himself for sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 9:28 (ESV) so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 9:28 (CEB) In the same way, Christ was also offered once to take on himself the sins of many people. He will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 9:28 (CJB) so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, i will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to deliver those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 9:28 (GNT) In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.

[ It's interesting to think that you actually believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is somehow before the tribulation, when so many will be martyred for Him, during the tribulation???]

That's why there's another resurrection after the tribulation "only" for those that have died during the tribulation who refused the mark of the beast and were beheaded.

Revelation 20:4 English Standard Version (ESV)
Then I saw seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

If you want to believe and teach that Jesus' coming by which He resurrects/raptures His people and destroys the antichrist, is somehow before the great tribulation, then that's between you and they Lord, but that notion is nowhere to be found in scripture.

There's no pre-tribber on earth that thinks the a/c will be destroy before the great tribulation. You can't have a tribulation without the a/c.











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