Rapture timing

[JLB777]

I'm waiting for you to prove Matthew 24:4-14 is in Zechariah 14.

You are the one that constricted my original statement down to exclude the rest of the Olivet discourse.

I said Zechariah 14 is about the coming of the Lord, which Jesus also described in the Olivet Discourse.

Jesus is the one speaking in both the Olivet Discourse as well as Zechariah 14, in which the context begins in Zechariah 12.

Here, maybe this verse will help you understand -

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10



Case Closed.



JLB

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[JLB777]

Out of 48 verses from Matthew 24:3-51, anyone can nitpick 5-7 verses from scripture, line it up to prophecies written elsewhere in the OT and say okay, this is also the Olivet Discourse.

Your the one nit picking, since you are trying to show that the Oliver Discourse is not Jesus teaching about His coming, as He taught in Zechariah.


The coming of the Lord is described in Zechariah 12-14, and in the Olivet Discourse.


The Lord that is described is Jesus.

His coming is the Day of the Lord.


10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30


Maybe you think that the Lord described in Zechariah is a different Lord as described in the Olivet Discourse?

Is that the point you are trying to make?

What is the point you are trying to make?



JLB

 

[Straightshot]

JLB is correct

His discourse in the NT and the visions of His prophets are all connected and 100% congruent [2 Peter 1:61-21]

Any attempt to tell otherwise should be suspect of meddling and false teaching

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Riberra]

This was what you said just 3 weeks ago.

"By the way talking with you is a total waste of time Bye, Bye ---JOKER.
And this was what I told you. "Riberra, don't make claims you can't keep. You'll be back."

Your word is worthless as you've easily proven.

"Riberra, don't make claims you can't keep. You'll be back. You can't resist trying to disprove the pre-tribulation rapture.

The Bible itself disprove a pre-tribulation rapture.
The pre-tribulation rapture is not find anywhere in the Scriptures
All the pre-tribbers promoters are doing is to twist and take verses out of their original context and voila the pre-trib rapture of the Church is created.

Whenever you wanna continue this debate, just show me the calculation for Revelation 6:9-11.

Now that you're back, here's the question again.
"What's the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11?"

You have always avoided my question:
Do you believe that Paul soul and the souls of the other apostles who have been martyred and slain are included among the souls of the early church martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven Revelation 6:9-11?

***************************************
And here you make absolutely no sense.

As your claim that the helicopters are the locusts that John saw coming out of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9 is all about one's level of ignorance. Read the OT prophecies, you will not find locusts in the supernatural realm ascend upon the earth from a bottomless pit.

You are showing your own ignorance.
The bottomless pit is very real based on the Scriptures.
Locusts is the name provided in the text ....however their description
is far different than ordinary locusts....whatever that will come out of the pit will not be ordinary stuff... [/quote]

 

[rockytopva]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.”" - – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…...

“"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –- Isaac Newton

 

[Riberra]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

There must be a good reason explaining the long list of failed predictions made by the Pre-tribbers.

That reason must be that they do not take into account Jesus own words about His coming and our gathering unto Him which are mentioned in
Matthew 24:29-31

List of failed predictions made by the Pre-tribbers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions

 

[Straightshot]

The simple fact is that the Lord has not revealed the dating of His next intervention

And this is why you need to be ready Riberra

Don't let those you call "pre-tribers" deceive and distract you with their false predictions

Do what the Lord tells you to do [Matthew 25:1-13] and prevent the door from shutting you out

His intervention will come at a time that you do not expect [cannot know]

.... so you must be ready to go at any time .... He is not going to wait for for you if you have no oil

 

[Riberra]

The simple fact is that the Lord has not revealed the dating of His next intervention

And this is why you need to be ready Riberra

Don't let those you call "pre-tribers" deceive and distract you with their false predictions

Do what the Lord tells you to do [Matthew 25:1-13] and prevent the door from shutting you out

His intervention will come at a time that you do not expect [cannot know]

.... so you must be ready to go at any time ....

Unfortunately, the theory that Jesus can come AT ANY TIME to GATHER US UNTO HIM is not what the Scriptures say.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

He is not going to wait for for you if you have no oil

The parable of the wise virgins and oil means that the wait for the Coming of Jesus and our gathering unto Him will be longer than many expect ,thus the need for extra oil.

Matthew 25

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[Psalm3704]

Your the one nit picking, since you are trying to show that the Oliver Discourse is not Jesus teaching about His coming, as He taught in Zechariah.

The coming of the Lord is described in Zechariah 12-14, and in the Olivet Discourse.

I'm not arguing against the coming of the Lord mentioned anywhere in the bible and you I like to see you prove that by quoting me anywhere.

I'm arguing against your claim that Zechariah 14 is the Olivet Discourse. I've given you ample time to prove this but so far you've just arguing via straw man.

Written below, so far this is what you've given comparing Zechariah 14 to the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24 from post#325.

This is what Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse to His disciples, and what Paul described in both 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light...
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
Zechariah 14:1-7,16-17

Let's go over what you wrote, bolded and highlighted in red.

This is what Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse to His disciples, and what Paul described in both 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

This is not written anywhere in Matthew 24.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

Neither is this written anywhere in Matthew 24.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Neither is this written anywhere in Matthew 24. When Christ sends His angels to gather the elects from heaven in Matthew 24:31, He's already on earth.

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Neither is this written anywhere in Matthew 24.

Bottom line is you can't even prove anything before Matthew 24:14 and you haven't proven anything after Matthew 24:14.

I rest my case!

And again, I'm not arguing against the coming day of the Lord in Zechariah 14, Matthew 24 or anywhere else. Your straw man is too obvious. I'm refuting your foolish notion calling Zachariah 14 the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24.

Now the case is closed!










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[Psalm3704]

JLB is correct

His discourse in the NT and the visions of His prophets are all connected and 100% congruent [2 Peter 1:61-21]

Any attempt to tell otherwise should be suspect of meddling and false teaching

Boy, you just ate that straw man right out of his hands, ate the whole hand too. Looking pretty foolish there making comments without knowing the facts from priors posts. You just read the last post and assume you have it all figured out.








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[Bible2+]

vinsight4u said in post 395:

The mystery of iniquity already worked back in the time of Paul.

That's right.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:7a means that the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6a wasn't (just as he still isn't) restraining the spiritual aspect of the antichrist deception. For the spiritual aspect was already at work in the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7a; 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7). Instead, the restrainer was (just as he still is) restraining only the Antichrist himself ("that man of sin") from coming physically and sitting in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4, Daniel 11:36,31), and being given physical power over the whole earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7).

The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there is a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

But Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And he could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply show that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus, sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).

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vinsight4u said in post 399:

day of the LORD - rapture - His appearing

That's right. But note that nothing requires either at the 6th seal.

For the "face of him that sitteth on the throne" part of Revelation 6:16 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the world actually seeing the face of God sitting on his throne in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 4:2), or the world seeing Jesus on his white horse at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11), but rather the world expressing its fear of dying during or immediately after the 6th-seal event. For seeing the face of God means death (Exodus 33:20).

Also, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

--

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

vinsight4u said in post 399:

We need to see what happens in the 6th seal after the moon
turned to blood to find just when the day of the Lord begins.
Isaiah 2 shows that by the time the wicked hide that day
is now ongoing.

Note that the day of the Lord in Isaiah 2:10-21 has to begin at the 2nd coming, not at the 6th seal, during only the 1st stage of the tribulation. For during the 2nd half of the tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18), not the Lord, contradicting "the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the 2nd half of the tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), contradicting that in that day "the idols he [the Lord] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at the 2nd coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at one point during only the 1st stage of the tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It is not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before the 2nd coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the 2nd coming.

vinsight4u said in post 399:

It is also written by Isaiah in chapter 34 as to heaven rolls back
and ch 13 heaven and earth shakes. This also happens in the 6th seal.
Isaiah 34:4
"And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the
heaven shall be rolled...as a scroll..

To properly understand Isaiah 34:4, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 34:1-17).

Isaiah 34:4 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).

In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) isn't the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" isn't the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 isn't the literal, ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world.

Isaiah 34 doesn't refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it is still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It is not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through and won't ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).

Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

--

Note that the sky rolling up like a scroll in both Isaiah 34:4 and Revelation 6:14 doesn't require that they are the same event, just as, for example, the similarity between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-13 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) require that they are the same event.

That is, Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are 2 different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).

 

[Bible2+]

Riberra said in post 407:

The bottomless pit is very real based on the Scriptures.

That's right.

For in Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath: H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9-10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

The bottomless pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment (but not kill) mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).

 

[Bible2+]

rockytopva said in post 408:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

Regarding the 42 months, 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time", they are all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days, and the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5), and the 400 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Genesis 15:13 were literal years.

This literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled, not even during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

rockytopva said in post 408:

"And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

Regarding the subduing of 3 kings (Daniel 7:24), note that in Daniel 7 the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

rockytopva said in post 408:

"Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

Regarding "Christ comes as a thief in the night", the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

--

That is, note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).

Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

rockytopva said in post 408:

"Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

Regarding "it is not for us to know the times & seasons":

Acts 1:6 ¶When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Note that Acts 1:7, like Matthew 24:36,42,44, doesn't contradict the post-tribulation timing of Christ's coming, already stated in Matthew 24:29-31. Instead, Acts 1:7 can simply mean that it wasn't for the apostles to know at that time the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Christ's coming, when he will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21, Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7, Zechariah 14:3-21, Isaiah 2:1-4). Acts 1:7 doesn't require that no believers will ever come to know the date of Christ's coming before it happens.

 

[Psalm3704]

You are the one that constricted my original statement down to exclude the rest of the Olivet discourse.

I said Zechariah 14 is about the coming of the Lord, which Jesus also described in the Olivet Discourse.

No, we're not arguing against Zechariah 12. You originally said "The Olivet Discourse was describing Zechariah 14." Read the quote below.

The Olivet Discourse was describing Zechariah 14.

We're debating over Zechariah 14 as I'm refuting your foolish notion of promoting Zechariah 14 as the Olivet Discourse. Stick to Zechariah 14 and Matthew 24 and stop straw manning.

Better yet, you still haven't shown Matthew 24:4-15 written anywhere in Zechariah 14. Can't make it work can you? Try something easier like Mark 13 and Luke 21 when looking for other scriptures on the discourse.

And why do you keep writing case closed when you continue posting? Duh!

The Lord Jesus comes from Heaven to Jerusalem, and gathers all His saints to be with Him in the air, and does not go back to heaven in some great "U -turn", but continues to earth with all His people He gathered in the resurrection/rapture.

His feet will stand on the mount of Olives, and he will destroy all those wicked on earth, and will take His place as King over all the earth.

This is what Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse to His disciples, and what Paul described in both 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light...
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
Zechariah 14:1-7,16-17


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


The coming of the Lord is described here in 1 Thessalonians -

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

[ It's interesting to think that you actually believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is somehow before the tribulation, when so many will be martyred for Him, during the tribulation???]


The resurrection of the dead in Christ is first. All those who are Christ's that have died, will be raised first, before the rapture.

Then, those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together with them [the resurrected ones] in the air.

This event, whereby all those who have died and all those who are alive and remain, occurs at His coming.

This is the second coming, not the first coming, but the second coming.

This event is described as the Day of the Lord, and also the Day of Christ.

Jesus will gather all His people together, and destroy the wicked as he returns to earth, in which by the brightness of His coming, the antichrist will be destroyed.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The very same coming of the Lord that gathers His people is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


If you want to believe and teach that Jesus' coming by which He resurrects/raptures His people and destroys the antichrist, is somehow before the great tribulation, then that's between you and they Lord, but that notion is nowhere to be found in scripture.


JLB

.

 

[Psalm3704]

The Bible itself disprove a pre-tribulation rapture.
The pre-tribulation rapture is not find anywhere in the Scriptures
All the pre-tribbers promoters are doing is to twist and take verses out of their original context and voila the pre-trib rapture of the Church is created.

This doesn't prove your foolish nonsense of the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11.

You have always avoided my question:
Do you believe that Paul soul and the souls of the other apostles who have been martyred and slain are included among the souls of the early church martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven Revelation 6:9-11?

I said I would answer you if you can tell me the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11.

I've been waiting for your answer for over a month. How much time do you need to crunch a few numbers?

Than you tried to weasel yourself out of a jam calling me a joker and say you're leaving. Well your word sure didn't live up to expectation.

As your claim that the helicopters are the locusts that John saw coming out of the bottomless pit.

Riberra, forget about weapons of modern warfare like helicopters, jets, tanks, rockets, missiles and nuclear weapons, you must think John saw the next world war involving bows and arrows, spears, shields and catapults, and 1/3 of the world's population will be kill by these weapons, am I right?

Riberra, watch out for the arrow flying your way......no flesh would be saved.

There will be great tribulation (LOCUSTS!!!) such has not been since the beginning of the world until this time nor will there ever be.
















.

 

[Revealing Times]

The Rapture is clearly shown in the Feasts, and the timing is shown, but as Jesus said in Matthew 13, it is not given to the average person to know the secrets of God, some will see but will not understand. Daniel and Leviticus shows in full the Raptures timing.

Feast of Springs (fulfilled already)
1. Passover-Jesus fulfilled this he was the passover Lamb
2. First-Fruits-Jesus was the First-fruits Cor. 15:20, he was Resurrected.
3. Unleavened Bread-Jesus was unleavened (without sin)

Which feast comes next ? The Feast of Pentecost, it is separated from both the Spring Feasts and Fall Feasts.

4. Pentecost-Is going on as we speak, it is the sowing of seeds so the harvest might be successful of course, the church is called to sow the seeds so that the harvest will be productive when the time is ripe. Notice the break in the Feasts ? We understand the first three were fulfilled, then the Pentecost, then the Fall Feasts come, Daniels 70 Weeks Decree show the very same break in time. A 2000 year break in God Dealing with Israel. Guess what Feast comes next !!

Feast of Trumps- This is what Paul was speaking of when he said "at the Last Trump" !!! Does anyone see it ? A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel. BINGO..............What is happening all throughout Revelation ? ANNOUNCEMENTS, the Seven Seals, Seven Trumps and Seven Vials are announced by Angels. AT THE LAST TRUMP. Or at the Last Trump of Feasts.

Feast of Atonement-Israel will then be atoned by Jesus, at his second coming so to speak.

Feast of Tabernacle- Tabernacle (Mishcan 4908) of course means to "dwell with" and Israel will Tabernacle or Dwell with God.

So the First three Feasts all Happened to Israel.........Then Israels time was Paused (See Daniel's 70 Week prophecy).... Then comes the Feast of Pentecost (Church Age)...........BOOM, here comes the Feast of Trumpets..........The Church is called Home and Israel's clock starts again........then the atonement of Israel after the JUDGMENTS or ANNOUNCEMENTS, then the feast of Tabernacle, or Israel dwelling with God.

 

[Straightshot]

"The Rapture is clearly shown in the Feasts, and the timing is shown, but as Jesus said in Matthew 13, it is not given to the average person to know the secrets of God, some will see but will not understand. Daniel and Leviticus shows in full he Raptures timing"

The "timing" of the Lord's next intervention is not shown in the Feasts .... this is a man made idea

.... and you added "average" .... no one can know this secret for He has not revealed

Neither does Daniel or any scripture reveal

You are creating a contradiction against the fact that no one can know