Rapture timing poll

[Douggg]

Seriously, you're going to argue that the saints are Raptured to heaven when Jesus doesn't come?

The rapture will not takes place at Jesus's Second Coming at the end of the 7 year 70th week. The rapture could take place this very second. But it has to take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

The 7 year 70th week in the 7 years following Gog/Magog. Ezekiel 39 provides the framework for end time events. All of the end time event timeframes fit within the 7 years following the Gog/Magog event. Gog/Magog event is latter days, latter years, Ezekiel 38:8 and Ezekiel 38:16, and is close at hand.

 

[RandyPNW]

The rapture will not takes place at Jesus's Second Coming at the end of the 7 year 70th week. The rapture could take place this very second. But it has to take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

The 7 year 70th week in the 7 years following Gog/Magog. Ezekiel 39 provides the framework for end time events. All of the end time event timeframes fit within the 7 years following the Gog/Magog event Gog/Magog event is latter days, latter years, Ezekiel 38:8 and Ezekiel 38:16, and is close at hand.

You said you believe the Rapture will *not* take place on the day Jesus returns. How silly is that?

 

[Douggg]

You said you believe the Rapture will *not* take place on the day Jesus returns. How silly is that?

You can make your selection in the poll and then make a post to expand upon your selection.

 

[RandyPNW]

You can make your selection in the poll and then make a post to expand upon your selection.

Doug I really don't mean to be difficult. You just don't represent a position that I can choose. When you choose in one place Postrib after the 70th Week, I cannot take that because I don't believe in a future 70th Week. When you choose another place where the Rapture takes place when Jesus comes, that does not distinguish from any other position--all positions view the Rapture as happening when Jesus comes!

Some see Jesus coming in the clouds as a 1st step--still he is Coming, which is when the Rapture takes place. I cannot choose this option because all positions would say that the Rapture happens when Jesus Comes, whether in the clouds or on the earth.

His Coming is not distinguished either way, whether in the clouds or on the earth. And so, if I chose that option, I would be counted with others who do not share my position. This would make the poll faulty. It is a corrupt poll--sorry.

I'm surprised that you're so insistent on maintaining a future 70th Week as a critically important part of your poll. That seems to be where the confusion lies for me. So you should just take the poll among those who believe in a future 70th Week, and not claim to have a poll that represents everybody.

You could so easily have just said that there is a category for Postrib who are not Pre-Wrath or who believe Christ comes on the last day of the age. But no--you insist on having a Postrib category in which the Rapture happens after the 70th Week, and another category that is purely ambivalent about when Jesus actually comes.

So I will just check "other." You already know what I believe. I don't have to explain.

 

[eleos1954]

Make your selection.

On the day Christ returns is the 1st resurrection and those are taken to heaven ..... if you want to refer to that as a "rapture"

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

On the day Christ returns is the 1st resurrection and those are taken to heaven ..... if you want to refer to that as a "rapture"

Ahhh. Yeah.

 

[Jamdoc]

Make your selection.

I want to make a disclaimer that mine is actually pre-wrath AND "on the Day Christ Returns"
... cause really the rapture needs to be understood as that. People splitting the rapture and the second coming are in error.

 

[Jamdoc]

You said you believe the Rapture will *not* take place on the day Jesus returns. How silly is that?

Because people think they're separate things and believe Jesus comes back on a white horse, not on the clouds, despite Jesus and the angels both professing Jesus comes on the clouds, and John also wrote it in Revelation 1 and Revelation 14.

 

[RandyPNW]

Because people think they're separate things and believe Jesus comes back on a white horse, not on the clouds, despite Jesus and the angels both professing Jesus comes on the clouds, and John also wrote it in Revelation 1 and Revelation 14.

I agree. When Jesus comes back on a white horse, there will be little difference with seeing him come on a cloud.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree. When Jesus comes back on a white horse, there will be little difference with seeing him come on a cloud.

*smh*
I just don't think the horse event is coming from heaven, not already covered in blood.

There's 2 options:
1. Jesus comes down, gets bloody, goes back up to heaven, comes back down (which is I guess what the majority of pre-wrath believe, Nelson Walters believes that, and I disagree, I don't see it in scripture the idea of going back up to heaven and having a 3rd coming)
2. Jesus comes down, gets bloody, and... is on Earth alone while the saints are in heaven (which saints are in heaven in Revelation 19 that much is clear in the text), and the saints rejoin him on Earth in Revelation 19, which is where I am.

But Jesus already being bloody in Revelation 19 doesn't really lend itself to Jesus was in heaven until that point.

 

[RandyPNW]

*smh*
I just don't think the horse event is coming from heaven, not already covered in blood.

I don't think the "covered in blood" thing refers to *previous* battles. Rather, it is a projection, through the use of symbolism, of the blood about to be spilled at Armageddon. The armies are marching *towards war,* and not *after war.*

There's 2 options:
1. Jesus comes down, gets bloody, goes back up to heaven, comes back down (which is I guess what the majority of pre-wrath believe, Nelson Walters believes that, and I disagree, I don't see it in scripture the idea of going back up to heaven and having a 3rd coming)

I'm not sure what Pre-Wrathers believe. To me, Pre-Wrath is way too late in history to become a school of eschatology, though I agree with their sentiment--Christians are delivered, and not punished, at the 2nd Coming.

2. Jesus comes down, gets bloody, and... is on Earth alone while the saints are in heaven (which saints are in heaven in Revelation 19 that much is clear in the text), and the saints rejoin him on Earth in Revelation 19, which is where I am.

But Jesus already being bloody in Revelation 19 doesn't really lend itself to Jesus was in heaven until that point.

See above. It's not that complicated, in my opinion.

Pre-Wrathers are concerned about Christians dying on earth on the day when Christ comes and pours out judgment at Armageddon. They have bought into the Pretrib argument that Christians cannot experience the Antichristian Reign, which they think is "God's Wrath."

But the fact is, all through history, Christians have died in times when God has poured out His Wrath on nations at war. Christians who die are *not* under God's Wrath! They are victims of "friendly fire!* They are casualties of war! They are victims of human warfare! This is *not* God's Wrath against them!

Christians who die because of the international war brought about by Armageddon will be delivered from death. They will be delivered, and not be suffering God's Wrath!

None of this needs to be explained that much. It is a logical problem concocted by Pretribulationists who don't want the Church to go through a time they think will be worse than anything before. In reality, we've had lots of things like it already, from Roman persecution of Christians to Nazi persecution of the Jews.

Christians have always had to go through troubled times to bear testimony to the truth about Christ. The world is judged precisely because of the witness of the saints. We'll be here.

When we come with Christ at Armageddon, it is a symbolic picture of our participation. There will be angels following, as well as the saints who join in with Christ's testimony against the Antichrist. Let's not make it too complicated?

 

[Jamdoc]

I don't think the "covered in blood" thing refers to *previous* battles. Rather, it is a projection, through the use of symbolism, of the blood about to be spilled at Armageddon. The armies are marching *towards war,* and not *after war.*

Except Isaiah 63 and Revelation 14 explain the blood.

Revelation 14 has Jesus on the clouds (not a horse), the earth is reaped by Jesus, those are not put through the wrath of God, then an angel reaps the earth and puts those grapes (the grapes of wrath in a sense) through the winepress of the wrath of God.

Isaiah 63 more importantly, has Jesus ALONE on Earth treading the winepress of His wrath, with nobody on His side with Him, and it stains all his clothes in blood, and Jesus is not coming from heaven in this vision, but from Edom. Armageddon isn't in the direction of Edom.

I'm not sure what Pre-Wrathers believe. To me, Pre-Wrath is way too late in history to become a school of eschatology, though I agree with their sentiment--Christians are delivered, and not punished, at the 2nd Coming.

See above. It's not that complicated, in my opinion.

Pre-Wrathers are concerned about Christians dying on earth on the day when Christ comes and pours out judgment at Armageddon. They have bought into the Pretrib argument that Christians cannot experience the Antichristian Reign, which they think is "God's Wrath."

That's entirely false, Pre-wrath is separating "the wrath of God" from "the tribulation" seeing "tribulation" as the Antichrist's reign and the persecution of saints, while the wrath of God is God's vengeance/response to that persecution. Seal 5 is the Martyrs asking how long until God avenges them, Seal 6 is the declaration of the wrath of God combined with the signs Jesus gave for His second coming, and no, a horse is not involved.

Pre-wrath is about discarding previous teachings and seeing that the bible itself spells out the timing because it lines up with what Jesus said. Jesus said immediately after the tribulation the sun and moon will darken and the stars will fall and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

When does that happen in Revelation? At the 6th seal.
What does that mean?
The tribulation is over.
the saints in heaven in Revelation 7 have come out of great tribulation
what does that mean?
The tribulation is over.

Whatever is after the 6th seal Chronologically is NOT tribulation, because at the 6th seal, the tribulation is over.
Pre-wrath is actually a post trib position.

But the fact is, all through history, Christians have died in times when God has poured out His Wrath on nations at war. Christians who die are *not* under God's Wrath! They are victims of "friendly fire!* They are casualties of war! They are victims of human warfare! This is *not* God's Wrath against them!

Christians who die because of the international war brought about by Armageddon will be delivered from death. They will be delivered, and not be suffering God's Wrath!

None of this needs to be explained that much. It is a logical problem concocted by Pretribulationists who don't want the Church to go through a time they think will be worse than anything before. In reality, we've had lots of things like it already, from Roman persecution of Christians to Nazi persecution of the Jews.

Christians have always had to go through troubled times to bear testimony to the truth about Christ. The world is judged precisely because of the witness of the saints. We'll be here.

When we come with Christ at Armageddon, it is a symbolic picture of our participation. There will be angels following, as well as the saints who join in with Christ's testimony against the Antichrist. Let's not make it too complicated?

there's a difference between undergoing persecution, and martyrdom at the hands of men, and God turning all the water to blood and you die of thirst because God didn't provide for you.
One is betrayal by man
the other is betrayal by God.

Pretribulationists will say "Jesus does not beat up His bride!" and sure, I'd agree, but while the groomsman is away, a wicked vagabond may come, and beat His betrothed, but when the groomsman returns, and finds his betrothed disheveled, beaten, and violated, He won't just let it stand there.
He will avenge.

Luke 18

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 1

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

When Jesus comes down it's to avenge.
and what angels? The angels that blow the trumpets and pour the bowls.

Isaiah 34

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

I want to point this last line out, compare it to the 6th seal, It matches, and nothing like it is in Revelation 19.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

When the Lord comes down, it is to avenge.

Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

2 ways that this can work:

1. Jesus lets every single one of His elect die so that there's none of them alive on Earth when He comes, and He doesn't resurrect them until after everything is done.
or
2. Jesus returns and the elect are raptured, so they're in heaven, and Jesus is on Earth.

for the first to work, Jesus would have to mean unbelievers when He is talking about no flesh being saved
but that very verse

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

and as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4, there are Christians alive when Jesus returns.

so somehow Jesus is on Earth treading the winepress of His wrath alone, and we are assured that Jesus comes back while there are at least a few Christians still alive. It may only be a handful. It could only be 1 Christian left alive and raptured.

as long as it's not 0 in which Jesus would be breaking promises.

but after that, Jesus has to be alone on Earth with no righteous with Him.

 

[keras]

To clarify the difference between how those who remain when Jesus Returns are gathered to Him, as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says, and the 2 Witnesses, who are killed, then taken to heaven, we need to realize that the gathering, as Matthew 24:31 describes, is not to heaven but to Jerusalem, where Jesus will reign from. It is just a transportation to meet Him and then be with Him forever, the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39
Immortality, as described in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is not conferred until after the Millennium. Only after the Book of life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

Rapture believers say: There might be some dispute about the timing, but the concept is very clear in scripture. Quote
The concept of a rapture to heaven of the Church is NOT 'very clear' at all. There is no verse that states God intends to take the Christian Church to heaven. But there are several that say such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10

And as for the 'dispute about the timing', this ongoing argument should ring alarms of concern for all who wish to believe in the rapture theory. For 100+ years this issue has been argued and fought over by Christians, without any resolution. Pre, Mid, Post and now Pre-wrath, all have their exponents and all are wrong because the Bible simply does not prophesy a rapture to heaven of any living person, at any time.
What we see with the rapture issue, is assumptions, inferences and plain guesswork, resulting in lies and confusion. Promoted, of course, by the Author of lies and confusion.
We are told that people will be susceptible to false teachings, 1 Timothy 4:3-4, and Jesus warned us to not be deceived. I guess He knew that many would be deceived!

What the Prophetic Word does tell us God will do for His people, those who stand firm in their faith; is protection through all that must happen. Dozens of verses state how the Lord will protect His own through fire, Isaiah 43:2 and the 3 men in the furnace, Daniel 3:19-27, are examples.
We are told to Call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21.

Then the Lord promises to bless His people, as they fulfil their tasks of being the Lord’s witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

 

[RandyPNW]

Except Isaiah 63 and Revelation 14 explain the blood.

To be honest, the Prophets are difficult to interpret. They can be fine when taken on the face of them. Trying to form an eschatology out of them is another thing entirely!

Revelation 14 has Jesus on the clouds (not a horse), the earth is reaped by Jesus, those are not put through the wrath of God, then an angel reaps the earth and puts those grapes (the grapes of wrath in a sense) through the winepress of the wrath of God.

As I said, this is symbolism, and not an itinerary. Jesus is shown victorious over his enemies. The entire Revelation is filled with prolepses, which are visions of the end as if they are presently taking place. That's just the literary style.

Jesus is in this Revelation showing 2 things simultaneously, the defeat of the Antichrist and Christ's Coming to defeat him. Both are shown as though still future and yet taking place in the vision with respect to its end purpose. The sequence is difficult if you don't understand this. Future and present don't take place at the same time. But visions are very flexible in their application.

Isaiah 63 more importantly, has Jesus ALONE on Earth treading the winepress of His wrath, with nobody on His side with Him, and it stains all his clothes in blood, and Jesus is not coming from heaven in this vision, but from Edom. Armageddon isn't in the direction of Edom.

The purpose of Isa 63 may not be so much to show where Israel is being attacked, but rather, to show the object of God's wrath, which are Israel's neighbors on the East. Today these are Palestinians.

Jesus is shown "alone" because he alone won our redemption. His blood is what achieved redemptive victory for us.

That's entirely false, Pre-wrath is separating "the wrath of God" from "the tribulation" seeing "tribulation" as the Antichrist's reign and the persecution of saints, while the wrath of God is God's vengeance/response to that persecution. Seal 5 is the Martyrs asking how long until God avenges them, Seal 6 is the declaration of the wrath of God combined with the signs Jesus gave for His second coming, and no, a horse is not involved.

That's sort of what I was saying, that in order to avoid the matter of the Church suffering God's Wrath, which Pretribbers associate with the persecution by Antichrist, Pre-Wrathers separate God's Wrath from Antichrist's persecution.

They see the Church as going through Antichrist's persecution, but avoiding God's Wrath, which comes later. It being a rather new position in history, I'm not entirely familiar with Pre-Wrath.

2 Thessalonians 1

When Jesus comes down it's to avenge.
and what angels? The angels that blow the trumpets and pour the bowls.

Isaiah 34

I want to point this last line out, compare it to the 6th seal, It matches, and nothing like it is in Revelation 19.

I don't compare so much as follow the origin of a belief and instead look at direct references to that origin. To paste together just creates a confusing collage.

For example, I see Antichrist in Dan 7 as the origin of that doctrine. And then I look at all the NT references to him, by whatever name they choose to call him, and see the correlation back to the original doctrine in Dan 7.

If I see a NT figure that is wicked I don't just automatically assign to him the "Antichrist" label. Instead, I look at the surrounding verses to see if they refer back to Dan 7 for their origin.

2 ways that this can work:

1. Jesus lets every single one of His elect die so that there's none of them alive on Earth when He comes, and He doesn't resurrect them until after everything is done.
or
2. Jesus returns and the elect are raptured, so they're in heaven, and Jesus is on Earth.

for the first to work, Jesus would have to mean unbelievers when He is talking about no flesh being saved
but that very verse



and as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4, there are Christians alive when Jesus returns.

so somehow Jesus is on Earth treading the winepress of His wrath alone, and we are assured that Jesus comes back while there are at least a few Christians still alive. It may only be a handful. It could only be 1 Christian left alive and raptured.

as long as it's not 0 in which Jesus would be breaking promises.

but after that, Jesus has to be alone on Earth with no righteous with Him.

So you see Jesus coming back at the 6th Seal and all Christians are gone in the last half of the Reign of Antichrist? I'm confused. Are you Pre-Wrath? I'm not sure you've even said? Before I detail my responses I need to know where you're coming from.

 

[Jamdoc]

To be honest, the Prophets are difficult to interpret. They can be fine when taken on the face of them. Trying to form an eschatology out of them is another thing entirely!

except Isaiah 62's final passage is about the coming of Messiah, and continues into Isaiah 63 about Messiah's arrival, and what He did prior to that arrival and meeting the prophet (tread the winepress of His wrath alone)

As I said, this is symbolism, and not an itinerary. Jesus is shown victorious over his enemies. The entire Revelation is filled with prolepses, which are visions of the end as if they are presently taking place. That's just the literary style.

"It's allegory" and "it's difficult to understand" are hardly good rebuttals.
It's Revelation, not Obscuration.

Jesus is in this Revelation showing 2 things simultaneously, the defeat of the Antichrist and Christ's Coming to defeat him. Both are shown as though still future and yet taking place in the vision with respect to its end purpose. The sequence is difficult if you don't understand this. Future and present don't take place at the same time. But visions are very flexible in their application.

But that's not in the passage. The passage involves the 144,000, followed by angels warning not to take the mark of the beast and the consequences of doing so, the blessings that are on the dead in Christ those that will die as a consequence of not taking the mark, and then a depiction of the second coming of Jesus, followed by 2 reapings, 1 done by Jesus, which is not described as being put through the winepress, and one done by the angel, which is put through the winepress.

I mean yes the use of the term winepress and all the reaping is pictures, illustrations of what is happening, and can be compared back to certain parables of Jesus.
But going beyond that and trying to further allegorize it does the passage disservice.

But within the context of the passage itself it should be noted. When is Jesus on the clouds? It is after the mark of the beast since the warning on the mark of the beast has been issued, but before the winepress of the wrath of God.

post tribulation
pre wrath.

The purpose of Isa 63 may not be so much to show where Israel is being attacked, but rather, to show the object of God's wrath, which are Israel's neighbors on the East. Today these are Palestinians.

Jesus is shown "alone" because he alone won our redemption. His blood is what achieved redemptive victory for us.

That's attempting to stretch and further allegorize the passage.
There is allegory, in that the wrath is described as a winepress, but that's it. What does a winepress signify? That Jesus is crushing His opposition, and that it is messy and bloody, it's violent.
Go back to Genesis 3, what is the seed of the woman prophecied by the Lord God to do? to crush the head of the serpent, in Daniel what does Jesus (the stone cut without human hands) do? It crushes the statue.
All the allegory in the passage is to illustrate the might of Jesus to crush His enemies, that they stood no chance against Him.
The blood shows that there was no forbearance, no surrender, no submission, that when He unleashed His wrath it killed.
as for Him being alone, the context is unleashing His wrath and sustaining Himself in His fury. The saints are not fighting alongside Him, nor are they cheering Him on. Nobody is on His side in this conflict. It's Him, and His enemies, that's it.

That's sort of what I was saying, that in order to avoid the matter of the Church suffering God's Wrath, which Pretribbers associate with the persecution by Antichrist, Pre-Wrathers separate God's Wrath from Antichrist's persecution.

They see the Church as going through Antichrist's persecution, but avoiding God's Wrath, which comes later. It being a rather new position in history, I'm not entirely familiar with Pre-Wrath.

Because we're promised to go through tribulation, we're also promised to not be appointed to God's wrath, and as I showed in 2 Thessalonians 1, it just makes sense, that God's wrath is a response to tribulation conducted by Antichrist.

Last I knew, the Antichrist is not able to command Angels to pour out bowls filled with God's wrath. So the bowls and trumpets are not "tribulation" they are wrath, specifically the wrath of God, who reserves the authority to command these things.
as far as I know no post trib ever suggests that God is pouring out His wrath on the elect either. They'll try to apply "the Goshen principle"

But it doesn't really explain the people in heaven in Revelation 7, 15, or 19, doing things that people with bodies do like carrying objects and instruments.

I don't compare so much as follow the origin of a belief and instead look at direct references to that origin. To paste together just creates a confusing collage.

For example, I see Antichrist in Dan 7 as the origin of that doctrine. And then I look at all the NT references to him, by whatever name they choose to call him, and see the correlation back to the original doctrine in Dan 7.
If I see a NT figure that is wicked I don't just automatically assign to him the "Antichrist" label. Instead, I look at the surrounding verses to see if they refer back to Dan 7 for their origin.

Goes back further than Daniel actually
God declares the end from the beginning

Genesis 3

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

If the seed of the woman is the Messiah, a singular man, then the seed of the serpent is....?

So you see Jesus coming back at the 6th Seal and all Christians are gone in the last half of the Reign of Antichrist? I'm confused. Are you Pre-Wrath? I'm not sure you've even said? Before I detail my responses I need to know where you're coming from.

not exactly

First off the 6th seal is not given a time marker except that it would be after the abomination of Desolation, so sometime between the Abomination of Desolation and the end of the 70th week, as the saints in Revelation 7 are having come OUT of Great Tribulation, which begins after the Abomination of Desolation. I generally focus the "great tribulation" as being most specifically the 5th seal, and paralleling the Mark of the Beast. Chronology resets in Revelation 12. Revelation 12 does not follow Revelation 11 Chronologically as Jesus' first act after the kingdoms of the world are declared His kingdom at the 7th trumpet is not..... give power back to Satan so he can give it to Antichrist in Revelation 13.

As for what happens in the 6th seal, the heavens open up, Jesus is visible (unbelievers try to hide from Him), and the resurrection/rapture take place. Jesus is worshipped in heaven, and then at the opening of the 7th seal, heaven goes silent.....
why?
and mind you these same people cheer on the violent destruction of Babylon and cheer on the judgements done on the people of the Earth.

I believe it's because something happens that virtually nobody expected to happen occurs:
Jesus leaves heaven by Himself.
No white horse.
no saints coming with Him. They're in Heaven, and Jesus left.

Jesus comes in flaming fire, what is the first trumpet?
fire, all the green grass burned up.
This is all in the same 24h.
Now the other trumpets some give time markers, the 5th trumpet gives 5 months
the 7th trumpet says days.
and who knows how long between the 5th and 6th seal
but it's evident that the 6th and 7th seals and 1st trumpet are all on the same day.

as far as how far from the end date of the 70th week this happens? I don't know precisely No man nor angel, nor even the Son of Man knows precisely, at least He didn't while on Earth. All I know is the days were promised to be shortened for the Elect's sake so they wouldn't all die.
Some people guess a year, or a year and 10 days to match the time of Noah being on the ark and to be fair, there is a rationale to that, from 1 feat of trumpets until the day of atonement the year after.
But I'm not dogmatic on that.
It's just "sometime" in the last 3.5 years, at least 5 months away from the end to cover the 5th trumpet.

Where I differ from pretty much every pre-wrath I have ever heard of.. is that most of them still see 3 comings.
I agree with post trib there is only 1 second coming.
I just don't think it's Revelation 19, I think it's earlier.

 

[RandyPNW]

except Isaiah 62's final passage is about the coming of Messiah, and continues into Isaiah 63 about Messiah's arrival, and what He did prior to that arrival and meeting the prophet (tread the winepress of His wrath alone)

"It's allegory" and "it's difficult to understand" are hardly good rebuttals.
It's Revelation, not Obscuration.

I was talking about Isa 63--it was written to the Jews hundreds of years before the book of Revelation. And symbolism is not the same thing as allegory, although they are similar. I was not saying that prophecy is predominantly allegory. It is, however, filled with symbolism.

But that's not in the passage. The passage involves the 144,000, followed by angels warning not to take the mark of the beast and the consequences of doing so, the blessings that are on the dead in Christ those that will die as a consequence of not taking the mark, and then a depiction of the second coming of Jesus, followed by 2 reapings, 1 done by Jesus, which is not described as being put through the winepress, and one done by the angel, which is put through the winepress.

I mean yes the use of the term winepress and all the reaping is pictures, illustrations of what is happening, and can be compared back to certain parables of Jesus.
But going beyond that and trying to further allegorize it does the passage disservice.

The vision in Rev 14 is obviously symbolic--I'm not doing that. What is not in the passage?

But within the context of the passage itself it should be noted. When is Jesus on the clouds? It is after the mark of the beast since the warning on the mark of the beast has been issued, but before the winepress of the wrath of God.

These are visions! Do you want the itinerary for the sequence of the visions, or the itinerary for the Reign of Antichrist? They are not the same things! The fact sees one vision, then another vision, then another vision does not mean these visions reflect 3 sequential events! They are just the sequence of visions as John saw them!

post tribulation
pre wrath.

That's attempting to stretch and further allegorize the passage.

You should stop talking about "allegory." That is not my argument.

There is allegory, in that the wrath is described as a winepress, but that's it. What does a winepress signify? That Jesus is crushing His opposition, and that it is messy and bloody, it's violent.

A winepress is symbolic, but not an "allegory."

Go back to Genesis 3, what is the seed of the woman prophecied by the Lord God to do? to crush the head of the serpent, in Daniel what does Jesus (the stone cut without human hands) do? It crushes the statue.
All the allegory in the passage is to illustrate the might of Jesus to crush His enemies, that they stood no chance against Him.

Now *you*re admitting that many of these prophecies are *symbolic!* Why do you criticize me for saying so? I'm not saying they don't represent something real, or literal. I'm just saying that if we over-literalize the symbolism to create itineraries and sequences, we can get ourselves into trouble with the meaning.

The blood shows that there was no forbearance, no surrender, no submission, that when He unleashed His wrath it killed.
as for Him being alone, the context is unleashing His wrath and sustaining Himself in His fury. The saints are not fighting alongside Him, nor are they cheering Him on. Nobody is on His side in this conflict. It's Him, and His enemies, that's it.

And I'm saying it refers to the work Christ alone does. There are things the saints do, as well. But this is not talking about that here. In the book of Revelation the Coming of Christ with his Army may indeed reflect the work of saints done through Christ. And this may be because the saints are being called upon to testify against the sins of their age.

Because we're promised to go through tribulation, we're also promised to not be appointed to God's wrath, and as I showed in 2 Thessalonians 1, it just makes sense, that God's wrath is a response to tribulation conducted by Antichrist.

Of course it it. WW2 was also a response to Hitler's wickedness and many saints were not spared from the conflagration that represents God's Wrath against Hitler. The saints did not suffer "God's Wrath," but only the outcome of God's Wrath directed at Hitler. What the saints suffered were temporal consequences that the resurrection will overcome.

Last I knew, the Antichrist is not able to command Angels to pour out bowls filled with God's wrath. So the bowls and trumpets are not "tribulation" they are wrath, specifically the wrath of God, who reserves the authority to command these things.
as far as I know no post trib ever suggests that God is pouring out His wrath on the elect either. They'll try to apply "the Goshen principle"

But it doesn't really explain the people in heaven in Revelation 7, 15, or 19, doing things that people with bodies do like carrying objects and instruments.

These are *visions,* indicating the departed saints, as well as the role of the saints in their future destiny as judges. As I said, some of these visions are *prolepses.*

First off the 6th seal is not given a time marker except that it would be after the abomination of Desolation, so sometime between the Abomination of Desolation and the end of the 70th week, as the saints in Revelation 7 are having come OUT of Great Tribulation, which begins after the Abomination of Desolation.

I do not accept the basis of your statements. I simply don't hold to your *future* view of Daniel's 70th Week, nor do I accept that the 6th Seal represents part of an itinerary of the events of Antichrist's reign. The 6th Seal is one of 7 items released to be shown to John so that the Church will understand endtime issues. It is not a roadmap or prophetic calendar to give us a sequence of events to record in our notebook.

I generally focus the "great tribulation" as being most specifically the 5th seal, and paralleling the Mark of the Beast. Chronology resets in Revelation 12. Revelation 12 does not follow Revelation 11 Chronologically as Jesus' first act after the kingdoms of the world are declared His kingdom at the 7th trumpet is not..... give power back to Satan so he can give it to Antichrist in Revelation 13.

I cannot follow your attempts at creating a timeline because you are imposing that on the book of Revelation when it is not there. Each vision does *not* automatically indicate a historical sequence.

As for what happens in the 6th seal, the heavens open up, Jesus is visible (unbelievers try to hide from Him), and the resurrection/rapture take place. Jesus is worshipped in heaven, and then at the opening of the 7th seal, heaven goes silent.....
why?
and mind you these same people cheer on the violent destruction of Babylon and cheer on the judgements done on the people of the Earth.

Saints in heaven reflect a *prolepsis.* You may have to look up the word--I did. I 1st read the word used in George E. Ladd's book, I think. It's a great explanation for how Revelation is drawn up in a literary way, using many visions, visions within visions, and all without the necessity of a chronological sequence. After all, Jesus discouraged attempts at fixing "times and seasons," which is the Father's domain.

I believe it's because something happens that virtually nobody expected to happen occurs:
Jesus leaves heaven by Himself.

1 The 4 indicates Jesus is coming back *with* his saints.

No white horse.
no saints coming with Him. They're in Heaven, and Jesus left.

Sorry, don't see that.

Jesus comes in flaming fire, what is the first trumpet?
fire, all the green grass burned up.
This is all in the same 24h.
Now the other trumpets some give time markers, the 5th trumpet gives 5 months
the 7th trumpet says days.
and who knows how long between the 5th and 6th seal
but it's evident that the 6th and 7th seals and 1st trumpet are all on the same day.

as far as how far from the end date of the 70th week this happens?

Again, I don't buy the "70th Week" is future. The Reign of Antichrist is 1260 days, after which time troops are gathered to Armageddon in Israel, perhaps indicating that the world is revolting against the Antichrist's dominion. Though Antichrist's Reign is over on the 1260th day, the 2 Witnesses lay in the street another 3.5 days. And then the Eastern armies march to Armageddon. That mobilization would take some time, and again, we can't know the "day or the hour."

I don't know precisely No man nor angel, nor even the Son of Man knows precisely, at least He didn't while on Earth. All I know is the days were promised to be shortened for the Elect's sake so they wouldn't all die.
Some people guess a year, or a year and 10 days to match the time of Noah being on the ark and to be fair, there is a rationale to that, from 1 feat of trumpets until the day of atonement the year after.
But I'm not dogmatic on that.
It's just "sometime" in the last 3.5 years, at least 5 months away from the end to cover the 5th trumpet.

Where I differ from pretty much every pre-wrath I have ever heard of.. is that most of them still see 3 comings.
I agree with post trib there is only 1 second coming.
I just don't think it's Revelation 19, I think it's earlier.

Okay, I'm glad you're Postrib, even if I disagree with Pre-Wrath. I would agree, however, in the principle that the Church will not suffer God's Wrath. I just don't think that the Reign of Antichrist or God's punishment of Antichrist is "God's Wrath" directed at the saints. If we die, we will be raised back up at Jesus' Coming.

The Wrath I believe we are all safe from is Eternal Punishment. Any judgment to fall on Antichrist that kills us is not Eternal Punishment for us. For Antichrist, however, it will indeed be God's Wrath and Eternal Punishment.

Thanks for the exchange. I hope it didn't come across as too belligerent? I know I'm flawed.

 

[Jamdoc]

I was talking about Isa 63--it was written to the Jews hundreds of years before the book of Revelation. And symbolism is not the same thing as allegory, although they are similar. I was not saying that prophecy is predominantly allegory. It is, however, filled with symbolism.

The vision in Rev 14 is obviously symbolic--I'm not doing that. What is not in the passage?

Defeat of Antichrist. It's not in the passage.

These are visions! Do you want the itinerary for the sequence of the visions, or the itinerary for the Reign of Antichrist? They are not the same things! The fact sees one vision, then another vision, then another vision does not mean these visions reflect 3 sequential events! They are just the sequence of visions as John saw them!

It's Revelation, not Obfuscation

You should stop talking about "allegory." That is not my argument.

A winepress is symbolic, but not an "allegory."

When you apply a symbol to some moral meaning rather than something that will physically happen, that is allegory.
Not accusing you of this but just to give an example when idealists will talk about how there's not going to be a physical temple and physical abomination of desolation but that's talking about each individual letting themselves be Antichrist and the spirit of Antichrist in their heart is the Abomination of desolation or whatever, IE taking what is described as a visible event and making it an invisible moral lesson. That's allegorizing.

In your interpretation of Isaiah 63 you're allegorizing the passage to just being about "well he means he's alone in that he alone won salvation" taking a passage about how Jesus will appear after He is coming back from the slaughter in Edom and Idumea, and just trying to apply a moral meaning to it.

Now *you*re admitting that many of these prophecies are *symbolic!* Why do you criticize me for saying so? I'm not saying they don't represent something real, or literal. I'm just saying that if we over-literalize the symbolism to create itineraries and sequences, we can get ourselves into trouble with the meaning.

And I'm saying it refers to the work Christ alone does. There are things the saints do, as well. But this is not talking about that here. In the book of Revelation the Coming of Christ with his Army may indeed reflect the work of saints done through Christ. And this may be because the saints are being called upon to testify against the sins of their age.

But this passage is about the wrath of God, the wrath of Jesus, destroying His enemies without anyone else.
Not about atonement.
about wrath.

Of course it it. WW2 was also a response to Hitler's wickedness and many saints were not spared from the conflagration that represents God's Wrath against Hitler. The saints did not suffer "God's Wrath," but only the outcome of God's Wrath directed at Hitler. What the saints suffered were temporal consequences that the resurrection will overcome.

The trumpets and bowls are not actions of men, it's not describing persecution against Christians by Antichrist.
But they describe the wrath of God against Antichrist. The 5th trumpet, only targets people not marked by God. The first bowl, only targets people who took the mark of the beast.

This is God's wrath against the people who martyred His elect.

These are *visions,* indicating the departed saints, as well as the role of the saints in their future destiny as judges. As I said, some of these visions are *prolepses.*

and I say it's a vision of something that will really happen, and not a "flash forward" The timing is too consistent in Revelation 7 and 15, the saints are in heaven after signs that describe the things that happen jaround Jesus' second coming (6th seal, and Jesus on the clouds in Revelation 14) but before the trumpets and before the bowls.

I do not accept the basis of your statements. I simply don't hold to your *future* view of Daniel's 70th Week, nor do I accept that the 6th Seal represents part of an itinerary of the events of Antichrist's reign. The 6th Seal is one of 7 items released to be shown to John so that the Church will understand endtime issues. It is not a roadmap or prophetic calendar to give us a sequence of events to record in our notebook.

Giving numbers to each of these sets of things conveys there is a sequential progression. Now as to whether seals, trumpets and bowls can overlap that is perhaps less clear but I believe that the trumpets and bowls come after the seals, but the trumpets and bowls may run parallel in some cases, the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl seem to intermingle as one (the drying up of the Euphrates) enables the passage of the armies in the other.
But the 6th seal follows the 5th seal which follows the 4th seal
and the 7th trumpet follows the 6th trumpet.
They wouldn't have a numbered sequence if they happened haphazardly.
and the trumpets and bowls describe actions by God against wicked people, not actions of people vs other people. The first 5 seals describe actions by people against other people.

I cannot follow your attempts at creating a timeline because you are imposing that on the book of Revelation when it is not there. Each vision does *not* automatically indicate a historical sequence.

None of it is historical.

Saints in heaven reflect a *prolepsis.* You may have to look up the word--I did. I 1st read the word used in George E. Ladd's book, I think. It's a great explanation for how Revelation is drawn up in a literary way, using many visions, visions within visions, and all without the necessity of a chronological sequence. After all, Jesus discouraged attempts at fixing "times and seasons," which is the Father's domain.

and yet, the saints in heaven follow visions that line up with Jesus' return but before the trumpets/bowls in both visions.
Isaiah 26 similarly has depicted a time of persecution, birth pangs, and suffering caused by enemies, followed by the resurrection, and Isaiah inviting people to hide with him from the wrath of God, as God comes out of His place to bring His indignation upon all nations.

Isaiah 26:

16 Lord, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

See that? Tribulation/Birth Pangs, Resurrection, and God coming out of His place to punish. In that same order.

I think you'd normally agree that that's the order, it's just you refuse to see the trumpets and bowls as acts of God delivered by Angels on men and want to see them as symbols of acts that men do against other men.
You want to see the trumpets and bowls as "tribulation" not wrath.

But the bowls are explicitly the wrath of God, and Revelation 6:17 indicates that the wrath of God follows the 6th seal, and is delivered by the 7 trumpets.
The trumpets and bowls are not depicting persecution by Antichrist.
They are depicting the Wrath of God against Antichrist and the world.

1 The 4 indicates Jesus is coming back *with* his saints.

When Jesus opens the heaven and the resurrection takes place, the dead come down, and then rise up and meet Jesus in the air. It doesn't say Jesus is on the ground at that point, rather that He is in the air, on the clouds. The spirits of the dead in Christ come down to where their bodies are, raise up, and then are caught up (raptured) to the clouds with Jesus.
This is before Jesus places a foot on the ground.
That is what I see at the 6th seal, then Jesus is praised, and then Jesus descends after the 7th seal and is on the ground.... but not with the saints.
hence the silence.
in Revelation 19 they don't praise God on the throne and the Lamb separately as they do in Revelation 7. The Lamb is not there. the Lamb is on Earth. The saints are with God the Father.

Sorry, don't see that.

You see a white horse in Revelation 7-8?

Again, I don't buy the "70th Week" is future. The Reign of Antichrist is 1260 days, after which time troops are gathered to Armageddon in Israel, perhaps indicating that the world is revolting against the Antichrist's dominion. Though Antichrist's Reign is over on the 1260th day, the 2 Witnesses lay in the street another 3.5 days. And then the Eastern armies march to Armageddon. That mobilization would take some time, and again, we can't know the "day or the hour."

Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11 all are tied to the same thing shown different times. The historical interpretation of them is filled with historical inaccuracies. Daniel as a book is sealed until the time of the end, historical interpretations are all in error because they are interpreting a sealed book. I mean, we may be interpreting a still sealed book for all we know. Any interpretation of Daniel has to be considered that it is likely wrong, especially historical interpretation.

Okay, I'm glad you're Postrib, even if I disagree with Pre-Wrath. I would agree, however, in the principle that the Church will not suffer God's Wrath. I just don't think that the Reign of Antichrist or God's punishment of Antichrist is "God's Wrath" directed at the saints. If we die, we will be raised back up at Jesus' Coming.

No, the reign of Antichrist is not God's wrath, God's wrath is a response to the reign of Antichrist.
But God's wrath is described in 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. Those are NOT depictions of actions that men do against other men. They are NOT Tribulation.
They are the Wrath of God.

The Wrath I believe we are all safe from is Eternal Punishment. Any judgment to fall on Antichrist that kills us is not Eternal Punishment for us. For Antichrist, however, it will indeed be God's Wrath and Eternal Punishment.

Thanks for the exchange. I hope it didn't come across as too belligerent? I know I'm flawed.

I'm also flawed, and bad at communicating, I am on the autism spectrum. So please forgive my shortcomings and if it comes across like I have a short temper, I do, but I don't mean to.