Rapture timing poll

[Douggg]

Make your selection.

 

[RandyPNW]

Make your selection.

I'm surprised you took the one selection I might choose and corrupted/perverted it? I'm postrib, but I don't believe in a *future* 70th Week. Why would you put the 70th Week in there as a strictly futurist interpretation when a great number of scholars have believed that the 70th Week of Dan 9 was fulfilled in ancient history?

I suggest you find a better way to distinguish between PreWrath and Postrib, because they are both Postrib. For example, Postrib PreWrath and Postrib not PreWrath.

 

[Douggg]

I'm surprised you took the one selection I might choose and corrupted/perverted it? I'm postrib, but I don't believe in a *future* 70th Week. Why would you put the 70th Week in there as a strictly futurist interpretation when a great number of scholars have believed that the 70th Week of Dan 9 was fulfilled in ancient history?

I suggest you find a better way to distinguish between PreWrath and Postrib, because they are both Postrib. For example, Postrib PreWrath and Postrib not PreWrath.

I put post 70th week, pre 70th week, mid 70th week - because the advocates of the pretrib view consider the entire 70 week as "tribulation". Also, adovates of the mid-trib view is that the entire 70th week is "tribulation".

Do you believe that the Rapture will happen the day Jesus returns ?

Do you beleve that the Rapture will happen post- Great Tribulation.

 

[RandyPNW]

I put post 70th week, pre 70th week, mid 70th week - because the advocates of the pretrib view consider the entire 70 week as "tribulation". Also, adovates of the mid-trib view is that the entire 70th week is "tribulation".

Do you believe that the Rapture will happen the day Jesus returns ?

Do you beleve that the Rapture will happen post- Great Tribulation.

You are not showing me any recognition of the problem I stated. The "70th Week" of Dan 9 is interpreted, historically, as the Week in which Jesus was crucified. A small minority of Church Fathers believed otherwise, that it was a future reality in the time of Antichrist.

Today's Futurists are largely Dispensationalists who have adopted the "Future 70th Week" interpretation. As a Postrib holding to the non-Dispensationalist position, I do not see my belief in the "Rapture" as having anything to do with the 70th Week of Daniel. So where is my position represented in your poll?

 

[Douggg]

You are not showing me any recognition of the problem I stated. The "70th Week" of Dan 9 is interpreted, historically, as the Week in which Jesus was crucified.

I understand that is what you meant RandyPNW.

So where is my position represented in your poll?

That is why, I asked you these two questions. To frame a choice.

I am not gong with your suggestions of adding two other choices of "Postrib PreWrath and Postrib not PreWrath". Because those two still have the term "trib" in them. Which most proponents of the three rapture timing views of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, having the term "trib" (tribulation) implies 70th week in those views. "trib" is a misnomer, because the entire 70th week is not tribulation. But I don't want to go into that argument in this thread.

I want to frame a choice that you can select, but does not have the term "trib" in it. Nor "70th week" in it, because you believe the 70th week "as the Week in which Jesus was crucified."

Do you believe that the Rapture will happen the day Jesus returns ?

Do you believe that the Rapture will happen post- Great Tribulation?

Depending on your answers, I might add a choice of "the day that Jesus returns" or maybe "post Great Tribulation"
or "post Great Tribulation, the day that Jesus returns"

I won't add any choice until I find something that both you and I can agree to that is suitable that you can select on, first.

If we can't find a mutual agreeable description, I will add the choice "other".
.

 

[One God and Father of All]

That’s the first I’ve heard of pre-wrath rapture. From what I’ve just read on it, it seems to make a distinction between the wrath of Antichrist and that of God’s wrath.
I understand the wrath of Antichrist and that of God are the same. They are all God’s judgments.

 

[RandyPNW]

I understand that is what you meant RandyPNW.


That is why, I asked you these two questions. To frame a choice.

I am not gong with your suggestions of adding two other choices of "Postrib PreWrath and Postrib not PreWrath". Because those two still have the term "trib" in them. Which most proponents of the three rapture timing views of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, having the term "trib" (tribulation) implies 70th week in those views. "trib" is a misnomer, because the entire 70th week is not tribulation. But I don't want to go into that argument in this thread.

I want to frame a choice that you can select, but does not have the term "trib" in it.

No Doug, I disagree with you. The term "Trib" does not presuppose Daniel's 70th Week. It may for some, but it doesn't necessarily have to do so. As I told you belief in a *future* 70th Week of Daniel was rare in the Early Church and is largely Dispensationalism in the present era. So you are choosing to use a Dispensationalist format to propose a number of options that doesn't reflect all of the real categories.

Of course I wasn't suggesting you use Postrib Pre-Wrath and Postrib not Pre-Wrath--that was just to show you that the distinctions had nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week. You can use whatever category you choose, but it doesn't include me because I reject a future 70th Week of Daniel. That's as clear as I can make it.

Do you believe that the Rapture will happen the day Jesus returns ?

I'm Postrib, but not Pre-Wrath. Postrib believes that the Rapture takes place on the day Christ returns, which is the last day of the present age. I'm not very knowledgeable of the Pre-Wrath position. For all I know, their Rapture can take place on the last day of the age as well--just prior to an outpouring of Wrath from God upon the world.

Mid-Trib tries to escape the Wrath of God as well, which is supposed to take place in the last half of a 7 years period. By contrast, I don't believe that any of the "wrath" that falls upon the earth up to and including the Battle of Armageddon is something Christians will escape. Those who die will rise to glory, since they died as martyrs and not as the targets of God's wrath.

Do you believe that the Rapture will happen post- Great Tribulation?

The "Great Tribulation" is the NT era of Jewish Punishment, aka the Jewish Diaspora. It also includes the rejection of Christianity by both Jews and pagans, leading to our persecution. Since I believe the Rapture takes place on the last day of the age, it is clearly post-Great Tribulation.

Depending on your answers, I might add a choice of "the day that Jesus returns" or maybe "post Great Tribulation"
or "post Great Tribulation, the day that Jesus returns"

I won't add any choice until I find something that both you and I can agree to that is suitable that you can select on, first.

If we can't find a mutual agreeable description, I will add the choice "other".

Perhaps "other" since you are unable to distinguish between Pre-Wrath and non Pre-Wrath? As well, you adopt the Dispensationalist definition of "Great Tribulation," which in my view is not a given in your use of the term.

 

[Douggg]

I'm Postrib, but not Pre-Wrath. Postrib believes that the Rapture takes place on the day Christ returns

Then if it is okay with you, I will add a choice of "the day Christ returns". That should be something you can select.

 

[RandyPNW]

Then if it is okay with you, I will add a choice of "the day Christ returns". That should be something you can select.

I believe in Postrib, the Rapture happening on the last day of the age. To say "the day Christ returns" does not indicate it is the *last day,* which is what I believe.

 

[Douggg]

I believe in Postrib, the Rapture happening on the last day of the age. To say "the day Christ returns" does not indicate it is the *last day,* which is what I believe.

"the day Christ returns" as a choice, does not indicate whether it is on the last day of the age or not.

So as a choice, "the day Christ returns" does not counter what you believe.

What you could do is select the choice "the day Christ returns". Then in this thread make a post, saying "I selected 'the day Christ returns'.... and go over all the other criteria of what you believe that you have been sharing with me..

 

[RandyPNW]

"the day Christ returns" as a choice, does not indicate whether it is on the last day of the age or not.

So as a choice, "the day Christ returns" does not counter what you believe.

What you could do is select the choice "the day Christ returns". Then in this thread make a post, saying "I selected 'the day Christ returns'.... and go over all the other criteria of what you believe that you have been sharing with me..

When you set up categories to differentiate positions, and then try to accommodate my position, you do not do that if you fail to properly differentiate between my position and the rest of the positions.

Saying that I believe the Rapture on the day Christ returns does not distinguish it from any other position. All positions believe that...unless I'm missing something?

Again, my position is that Christ comes only once on the last day of the age. That is when the Rapture takes place. Other positions have Christ come more than once. And so they also see the Rapture as taking place on the day Christ comes.

The only thing that differentiates my position from these other positions is that I believe Christ returns on only one day, and that day is the last day of the age. If you can't say that, that's fine--it's your poll. I'll just ignore it as tainted with your own particular interests and assumptions.

You want to insert the 70th Week of Daniel, which is tainting the categories with the assumption there has to be a future 70th Week of Daniel to start with. And now you want to describe Jesus' Return without distinguishing it as on the last day of the age or descriptive of a single Coming.

I'll just let it be and try not to be too insistent about this. Again, it's your concern, and your poll.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

That’s the first I’ve heard of pre-wrath rapture. From what I’ve just read on it, it seems to make a distinction between the wrath of Antichrist and that of God’s wrath.
I understand the wrath of Antichrist and that of God are the same. They are all God’s judgments.

People (IMHO) tend to deny the events prior to the return of Lord Jesus. He has said that that time will be worse than any time ever on Earth. If anyone would get to know how out Father has done in the past, imho they ought to know that it is His will to remove those He favors before judgement falls. I think we can all agree that judgment is very near.

 

[RandyPNW]

People (IMHO) tend to deny the events prior to the return of Lord Jesus. He has said that that time will be worse than any time ever on Earth. If anyone would get to know how out Father has done in the past, imho they ought to know that it is His will to remove those He favors before judgement falls. I think we can all agree that judgment is very near.

Not to be disagreeable, but where do you see it said that just prior to Jesus' Return things will be worse than any time ever on the earth? I know that Jesus said things in the NT era would be worse for the Jewish People than any previous time. But where does it say things will be worse for the world or for the Church in that time period? Don't get me wrong. I know the world will not be good when Antichrist becomes the dominant world ruler.

 

[RandyPNW]

That’s the first I’ve heard of pre-wrath rapture. From what I’ve just read on it, it seems to make a distinction between the wrath of Antichrist and that of God’s wrath.
I understand the wrath of Antichrist and that of God are the same. They are all God’s judgments.

Pre-Wrath is fairly new in history, and is a Postrib reaction against the Pretrib complaint that Postrib has Christians suffering God's Wrath. I don't agree with Pre-Wrath but agree that no matter what Christians go through, it is not "God's Wrath" against the Church!

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Not to be disagreeable, but where do you see it said that just prior to Jesus' Return things will be worse than any time ever on the earth? I know that Jesus said things in the NT era would be worse for the Jewish People than any previous time. But where does it say things will be worse for the world or for the Church in that time period? Don't get me wrong. I know the world will not be good when Antichrist becomes the dominant world ruler.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It will be bad for the world, not the Church. The Church will be gone.

 

[Douggg]

Saying that I believe the Rapture on the day Christ returns does not distinguish it from any other position. All positions believe that...unless I'm missing something?

No, them who believe in the pre-trib, mid-trib, anytime rapture view, do not believe that the rapture takes place on the day Christ returns. Pre-wrath, I am not sure about.

Post-trib does believe the rapture takes place on the day Christ returns, but the trib notation in that view implies the 70th week.

I updated the poll, adding "on the day Christ returns" and "other".

 

[One God and Father of All]

No, them who believe in the pre-trib, mid-trib, anytime rapture view, do not believe that the rapture takes place on the day Christ returns. Pre-wrath, I am not sure about.

Post-trib does believe the rapture takes place on the day Christ returns, but the trib notation in that view implies the 70th week.

If one believes that Christ‘s second coming is of a two-fold nature, where would that fall under?
Meaning, Christ comes to rapture his own and to also execute God’s judgments. All included in his second coming.

 

[Douggg]

If one believes that Christ‘s second coming is of a two-fold nature, where would that fall under?
Meaning, Christ comes to rapture his own and to also execute God’s judgments. All included in his second coming.

I updated the poll, adding "on the day Christ returns" and "other".

 

[RandyPNW]

No, them who believe in the pre-trib, mid-trib, anytime rapture view, do not believe that the rapture takes place on the day Christ returns. Pre-wrath, I am not sure about.

Post-trib does believe the rapture takes place on the day Christ returns, but the trib notation in that view implies the 70th week.

I updated the poll, adding "on the day Christ returns" and "other".

Seriously, you're going to argue that the saints are Raptured to heaven when Jesus doesn't come?

 

[RandyPNW]

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It will be bad for the world, not the Church. The Church will be gone.

And you didn't recognize that this Great Tribulation is the Jewish Punishment of the present age? Jesus, in Luke 21, made it perfectly clear that this period of Jewish Punishment begins with the fall of the Temple in his generation.

And the period of Great Distress ends when he comes back. So the "Great Tribulation," contrary to popular belief, is actually the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age--not the Reign of Antichrist, not the outpouring of God's Wrath for 7 years or 3.5 years, as many Dispensationalists claim.

This is called the "Great Tribulation" because it is the worst punishment, in terms of length of time, than any previous punishment of Israel--worse than the 70 years of exile Israel experienced after the Babylonian Judgment.

It is not called "great" because it is a more severe punishment in terms of physical pain. What can be worse than being thrown to the lions by the Romans? What could be worse than the Nazis burning Jews in ovens?

No, this is the longest period of Jewish abandonment by God in world history. It is the "Great Tribulation." It was a Jewish Punishment, but included Christian suffering because the Jews, along with the world, reject Christianity. This is an extremely long period of suffering for both Jews and Christians!