Rapture Before Wrath

iamlamad · Oct 25, 2014

Rev20 said:
You made that up about the second resurrection (Rev 20:11-15) being only for the sinner. It doesn't state that anywhere. In fact, John specifically stated, in the vision of the first resurrection, that some people would have to wait a "thousand years" to live again (Rev 20:5). The Book of Life is also present.

Did you tear the Revelation out of your bible when you received your copy of the dispensational talking points? LOL!

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Did I write it - or did John write it? Did it just go over your head where the people at the great white throne judgment came from?

I saw the deadthe great and the smallstanding before the throne...

Who are "the dead?" The first resurrection has already taken place at this time, so the dead are all sinners who have been residing in hell, plus (perhaps) those few who died during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them

Did those righteous and born again people (say for instance on the titanic) NOT rise from the dead at the first resurrection? I am convinced they did. But the unrighteous bodies were eaten by sea creatures while the spirits were sent to hell. But when they resurrect, it will be from the sea.

Note that all who are in hell are resurrected. They were in hell because their living did not please God.

So all these will be at this judgment.

And I saw thrones, and they sat down on them, and authority to judge was granted to them

These on the thrones were in the first resurrection and came from Paul's rapture.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and did not receive the mark on their[a] forehead and on their hand

These were those who refused the mark and lost their head.

Then John writes:

(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.)

So who is left to make up the rest except sinners? All the righteous were resurrected at the first resurrection.

Rev20 · Oct 26, 2014

iamlamad said:
Did I write it - or did John write it? Did it just go over your head where the people at the great white throne judgment came from?

You certainly didn't write it; otherwise you might be able to understand it.
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iamlamad said:
I saw the deadthe great and the smallstanding before the throne...

Who are "the dead?" The first resurrection has already taken place at this time, so the dead are all sinners who have been residing in hell, plus (perhaps) those few who died during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Okay, I give up! Where can I find in the scriptures that all who die during the "thousand year" reign will go to hell?
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iamlamad said:
the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them

Did those righteous and born again people (say for instance on the titanic) NOT rise from the dead at the first resurrection? I am convinced they did. But the unrighteous bodies were eaten by sea creatures while the spirits were sent to hell. But when they resurrect, it will be from the sea.

Wait a minute! At the beginning of the passage the dead stand before God and are judged according to their works. Then "Death" gives up its dead and they are judged separately according to their works. Where did the first "dead" come from? They were not in "Death" or "Hell" or in the "Sea", so what is left? Were they maybe, "dead in sin"?

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" -- Rom 6:2

What did Christ mean when he said this:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- John 5:28-29

That's interesting. That certainly reads as if there will be a general resurrection of the dead, both good and bad. Am I misreading that verse?

You know, Daniel's resurrection says almost the same thing:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Dan 12:1-2

iamlamad, it appears your opinion of your ability to interpret the highly figurative language of the Revelation far exceeds your ability.

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iamlamad · Oct 27, 2014

Rev20 said:
You certainly didn't write it; otherwise you might be able to understand it.
.
Okay, I give up! Where can I find in the scriptures that all who die during the "thousand year" reign will go to hell?
.
Wait a minute! At the beginning of the passage the dead stand before God and are judged according to their works. Then "Death" gives up its dead and they are judged separately according to their works. Where did the first "dead" come from? They were not in "Death" or "Hell" or in the "Sea", so what is left? Were they maybe, "dead in sin"?

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" -- Rom 6:2
What did Christ mean when he said this:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- John 5:28-29
That's interesting. That certainly reads as if there will be a general resurrection of the dead, both good and bad. Am I misreading that verse?

You know, Daniel's resurrection says almost the same thing:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Dan 12:1-2
iamlamad, it appears your opinion of your ability to interpret the highly figurative language of the Revelation far exceeds your ability.

.

Did I say if any die during the 1000 year reign of Christ they would go to hell? No, I did not. You assumed that. I said they MAY be at the white throne judgment.

Look, I know this is difficult for you, but try again: if SOME of the dead are raised - those that are righteous - at the first resurrection then who is left "dead" at the next resurrection? Think hard! It MUST BE those that are unrighteous or the sinner. And you are right, most of the sinners are both dead in their flesh and dead in their sins. That is why they have been in hell. It is not a difficult concept: SOME are righteous when they die and go to heaven, and will not be at the white throne judgment. But MOST die unrighteous and without Christ in their life and so are sent to hell. It will be these that are at the white throne judgment.

AFTER John says "the dead" are there, they he tells us WHO they are and WHERE they came from. One simple thing you seem to miss: NONE of the people who took part in the first resurrection will be there! They are NOT DEAD in any respect. They were NOT found "dead in their sins" and after their resurrection they are not dead in body either. They will NOT be here at this white throne judgment.

You did not missread that verse. Jesus was making a SUMMARY statement, including BOTH resurrections. Jesus tells us more using John's pen: there is a thousand years between these two resurrections.

John told us about this in very simple language, easy to understand, if people can read WITHOUT preconceived glasses.

There will be TWO resurrections, the first or primary or chief resurrection will be for the righteous. JESUS was the first one in this resurrection. Those who partake in Paul's rapture will be the next wave.

A thousand years later, AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ, it will be time (an hour if you insist) when all the rest of humanity will be raised. It is the "second death" resurrection. You don't want to be there. Perhaps you should spend some time with a commentary.

LAMAD

Rev20 · Oct 27, 2014

iamlamad said:
Did I say if any die during the 1000 year reign of Christ they would go to hell? No, I did not. You assumed that. I said they MAY be at the white throne judgment.

Look, I know this is difficult for you, but try again: if SOME of the dead are raised - those that are righteous - at the first resurrection then who is left "dead" at the next resurrection? Think hard! It MUST BE those that are unrighteous or the sinner. And you are right, most of the sinners are both dead in their flesh and dead in their sins. That is why they have been in hell. It is not a difficult concept: SOME are righteous when they die and go to heaven, and will not be at the white throne judgment. But MOST die unrighteous and without Christ in their life and so are sent to hell. It will be these that are at the white throne judgment.

AFTER John says "the dead" are there, they he tells us WHO they are and WHERE they came from. One simple thing you seem to miss: NONE of the people who took part in the first resurrection will be there! They are NOT DEAD in any respect. They were NOT found "dead in their sins" and after their resurrection they are not dead in body either. They will NOT be here at this white throne judgment.

You did not missread that verse. Jesus was making a SUMMARY statement, including BOTH resurrections. Jesus tells us more using John's pen: there is a thousand years between these two resurrections.

John told us about this in very simple language, easy to understand, if people can read WITHOUT preconceived glasses.

There will be TWO resurrections, the first or primary or chief resurrection will be for the righteous. JESUS was the first one in this resurrection. Those who partake in Paul's rapture will be the next wave.

A thousand years later, AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ, it will be time (an hour if you insist) when all the rest of humanity will be raised. It is the "second death" resurrection. You don't want to be there. Perhaps you should spend some time with a commentary.

So, all those references to the resurrection of the good and the bad, including Daniel's detailed passage, as well as all the parables of the harvest at the end of the world, imply they will be 1000 years apart? Even this one?

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather [the tares] up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." -- Matt 13:24-30

That parable completely and totally contradicts your theory.

.

iamlamad · Oct 28, 2014

Rev20 said:
So, all those references to the resurrection of the good and the bad, including Daniel's detailed passage, as well as all the parables of the harvest at the end of the world, imply they will be 1000 years apart? Even this one?
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather [the tares] up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." -- Matt 13:24-30
That parable completely and totally contradicts your theory.

.

I am reminded of another scripture: "Understandest thou what thou readest?"

There are many different end time events that may seem to be the same event, but are not, such as Paul's rapture and the gathering in Matthew 24.

WHEN are the "tares" gathered? I submit that the moment Jesus hits the atmosphere on His descent for His coming in Rev. 19 , with all the armies of heaven - including angels, He will send out angels to take all those who offend off the planet. Jesus will not put up with lawlessness for one second. It will be Luke's version of "one taken" and "one left." There the ones "taken" will leave dead corpses around the planet. It will be the parable of the tares coming to pass.

Now, please explain how this parable has anything to do with resurrections?

LAMAD

shturt678s · Oct 28, 2014

Rev20 said:
You certainly didn't write it; otherwise you might be able to understand it.
.

Okay, I give up! Where can I find in the scriptures that all who die during the "thousand year" reign will go to hell?
.

Wait a minute! At the beginning of the passage the dead stand before God and are judged according to their works. Then "Death" gives up its dead and they are judged separately according to their works. Where did the first "dead" come from? They were not in "Death" or "Hell" or in the "Sea", so what is left? Were they maybe, "dead in sin"?

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" -- Rom 6:2

What did Christ mean when he said this:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- John 5:28-29

+ Jn.6:39 =

That's interesting. That certainly reads as if there will be a general resurrection of the dead, both good and bad. Am I misreading that verse?

You know, Daniel's resurrection says almost the same thing:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Dan 12:1-2

iamlamad, it appears your opinion of your ability to interpret the highly figurative language of the Revelation far exceeds your ability.

.

Old Jack's opinion

iamlamad · Oct 29, 2014

shturt678s said:
+ Jn.6:39 =

Old Jack's opinion

Jack, it appears that you can't figure out what should be taken as literal, and what is highly figurative. The 42 months, the 1260 days, the time, times, and half of time should be taken literally. These are describing the last half of a 7 year period of time. I am quite sure the devil does not usually appear as a fiery red dragon! he MUCH prefers to appear (to men) as a being of light, to deceive.

By the way, there certainly WILL BE an hour when the righteous dead IN CHRIST rise, another hour when the righteous dead of the Old Covenant rise, and yet another hour when the unrighteous dead rise. In a summary statement, these may appear to happen all at the same time, but John, in a very detailed statement shows us that the unrighteous rise a thousand years after the righteous.

LAMAD

Interplanner · Oct 29, 2014

depending on what a thousand years is

shturt678s · Oct 30, 2014

Interplanner said:
depending on what a thousand years is

The "1000 years" = / = a literal 12,000 months.

random person · Oct 30, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period. First of all, let's look at Titus 2:13. It states, " Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and savior Jesus Christ". We Christian believers are not looking for wrath, but as this verse states, we are looking for His glorious appearing to us which will take place at the rapture.

Believers are anxiously awaiting for the rapture to take place. 1 thess 1:10," And to wait for His Son from heaven whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come". To wait means to have great expectation and fulfillments of Gods promises to the saints.

Now look at 1 thess 5:9," For God hath not appointed us to wrath, But to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". In contrast, rev 6:16 ," And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the Lamb".and Matt 24:21 ," for then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be". These verses mention the horrific time period which is the tribulation period. I draw my conclusion that the saints will be ( delivered, raptured, caught up) whichever term one wants to use, before the tribulation.

There are also hints of a rapture before wrath that can be found in the Old Testament . Look at Isaiah 26:19-21," thy dead men shall live together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come my people , enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment , until the indignation be over past. For behold, The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity : the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain".

Christ will rapture genuine believers out of the world to escape wrath. Look at rev 3:10," Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth". The hour of temptation which has not occurred yet, is a worldwide testing. Christ promises to Keep them From( Greek word, ' ek' out of) the tribulation.

In conclusion , the believers that are' in Christ' will not have to endure the wrath of the tribulation, but will be caught up to meet The Lord in the air and forever will be with The Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 thess 4:17-18.

That wrath spoken of in 1 Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev. 3:10 is speaking about the wrath that occurred in Jerusalem and Judea during A.D. 66 to A.D. 70 when Christ judged unfaithful Israel (John 5:19, 22 = Isaiah 19:1 + Matt. 24:30 & Micah 1:3-7 + Zechariah 14:4-7).

Of course the Christian Jews weren't the object of God's wrath. But the nation that rejected their Messiah was.

This is why Jesus instructed His followers to flee Judea and Jerusalem, in order to flee from His wrath upon Israel.

Jews were slaughtered in the millions by the Romans particularly in the Galilee and Jerusalem IIRC were where the worst casualties occurred.

Please note, Jesus didn't rapture the Christian Jews from Judea and Jerusalem but that they were told to read the signs and flee from the Great Tribulation and Abomination of Desolation that occurred in the 1st century.

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2014

shturt678s said:
The "1000 years" = / = a literal 12,000 months.

WOW! For once I agree with you!

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2014

random person said:
That wrath spoken of in 1 Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev. 3:10 is speaking about the wrath that occurred in Jerusalem and Judea during A.D. 66 to A.D. 70 when Christ judged unfaithful Israel (John 5:19, 22 = Isaiah 19:1 + Matt. 24:30 & Micah 1:3-7 + Zechariah 14:4-7).

Of course the Christian Jews weren't the object of God's wrath. But the nation that rejected their Messiah was.

This is why Jesus instructed His followers to flee Judea and Jerusalem, in order to flee from His wrath upon Israel.

Jews were slaughtered in the millions by the Romans particularly in the Galilee and Jerusalem IIRC were where the worst casualties occurred.

Please note, Jesus didn't rapture the Christian Jews from Judea and Jerusalem but that they were told to read the signs and flee from the Great Tribulation and Abomination of Desolation that occurred in the 1st century.

Total bunk!

1 Thes.
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Paul does not even come close to what you said. All He said was "THE WRATH to come."

5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Again, you just imagined what wrath Paul was speaking of. Why don't we find from Paul, since he wrote these, just what kind of wrath he meant? Will you take Paul's own words?

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience

If we look in Revelation, we see that God's wrath is poured out in the FUTURE Day of the Lord, against ALL sinners. What did Paul say? The wrath he writes of is directed against: "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men."

Your theory then, is only imagination.

bibletruth469 · Nov 1, 2014

random person said:
That wrath spoken of in 1 Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev. 3:10 is speaking about the wrath that occurred in Jerusalem and Judea during A.D. 66 to A.D. 70 when Christ judged unfaithful Israel (John 5:19, 22 = Isaiah 19:1 + Matt. 24:30 & Micah 1:3-7 + Zechariah 14:4-7). Of course the Christian Jews weren't the object of God's wrath. But the nation that rejected their Messiah was. This is why Jesus instructed His followers to flee Judea and Jerusalem, in order to flee from His wrath upon Israel. Jews were slaughtered in the millions by the Romans particularly in the Galilee and Jerusalem IIRC were where the worst casualties occurred. Please note, Jesus didn't rapture the Christian Jews from Judea and Jerusalem but that they were told to read the signs and flee from the Great Tribulation and Abomination of Desolation that occurred in the 1st century.

One who believes in the preterists view basically does not take the scripture in a literal context . Much of the New Testament according to that mind set is interpreted in a symbolic way to make all the prophecies fit . This is not truth. One can not simply explain away the book of revelation by saying that it all already happened in the 1st century. The prophecies have not been fulfilled yet and it is very plain to see.

ebedmelech · Nov 1, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
One who believes in the preterists view basically does not take the scripture in a literal context .

This is a patently false statement bibletruth469, this is something you've either heard and now repeat, or you're ignorant of partial preterism. Typically literal interpreters attack with the word "preterism".

bibletruth469 said:
Much of the New Testament according to that mind set is interpreted in a symbolic way to make all the prophecies fit . This is not truth. One can not simply explain away the book of revelation by saying that it all already happened in the 1st century. The prophecies have not been fulfilled yet and it is very plain to see.

Again a false statement! I will not speak for full preterist, but as one who is amillennial and pretty close to partial preterism, what *most* do is let passages contextually provide how they are to be understood.

Now you pick any passage you want...or one that you believe applies to what you've said...and let's see if you're correct.

When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well...and made this statement in John 4:21:
21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

How do you read that?

Interplanner · Nov 1, 2014

to all,
the Reformers never started any doctrine out of the Revelation. If it is not crystal clear elsewhere, don't be concerned by something said in Rev.

In light of that, the most rational treatment of Mt 24A is about the things that happened in the 1st century. There is no reason at all to skip X000 years to the future. The only thing that can result is for 'literal' to mean "to insert full of skips and gaps." Really? There is a futurist here, for ex., Danoh, who says the OT is full of gaps when it mentions time frames. I have challenged him on that, but I don't know of any. I'm referring to historical ones, so theories about Dan 9 don't count if they depend on the future. And I'm not referring to the belief that generational lists would skip less significant characters, as seems to be done by Luke.

shturt678s · Nov 1, 2014

iamlamad said:
WOW! For once I agree with you!

This is why I keep my heart meds close in case someone does actuallly agree to agree.

Old disagreeable Jack

shturt678s · Nov 1, 2014

ebedmelech said:
This is a patently false statement bibletruth469, this is something you've either heard and now repeat, or you're ignorant of partial preterism. Typically literal interpreters attack with the word "preterism".

Again a false statement! I will not speak for full preterist, but as one who is amillennial and pretty close to partial preterism, what *most* do is let passages contextually provide how they are to be understood.

Now you pick any passage you want...or one that you believe applies to what you've said...and let's see if you're correct.

When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well...and made this statement in John 4:21:
21 Jesus *said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

How do you read that?

Being a full Amill. the sweet Gospel touch lies in the expression "you shall whorship the Father." It opens the door also the Samaratans so that they may become the children of this Father by faith in the Son.

Old non-partail preterist full on Amill. old Jack's opinion only

Riberra · Nov 7, 2014

iamlamad said:
the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them

Did those righteous and born again people (say for instance on the titanic) NOT rise from the dead at the first resurrection? I am convinced they did. But the unrighteous bodies were eaten by sea creatures while the spirits were sent to hell. But when they resurrect, it will be from the sea.

Note that all who are in hell are resurrected. They were in hell because their living did not please God.

The Bible actually give the identity of those who are in Hell

2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

1 Peter 3:19

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

At the Judgement Day

Revelation 20:14

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

iamlamad · Nov 8, 2014

Riberra said:
The Bible actually give the identity of those who are in Hell

2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

1 Peter 3:19

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

At the Judgement Day

Revelation 20:14

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The Bible actually give the identity of those who are in Hell

This is only a PART of who is in hell today. No one should form a doctrine from one verse, when there are many verses that speak of PEOPLE being cast into hell. Perhaps you should read the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

ron4shua · Nov 8, 2014

Greetings dearest fellow Saints , in many instances of Scripture idioms , similes & parables are used , basically metaphors . ( Parable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Many many learned believing folks pegged the parable of " the rich man and Lazarus." As rock solid , chiseled in granite truth , to their future chagrin .

So , is there a " rock solid , chiseled in granite truth " way to separate metaphors from Revelation TRUTH ? YES , as simple as Scripture knowledge . Follow the Masters Words .

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples having come near, said to him, `Wherefore in similes dost thou speak to them?'
11 And he answering said to them that -- `To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,
12 for whoever hath, it shall be given to him, and he shall have overabundance, and whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him.
13 `Because of this, in similes do I speak to them, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor understand,
14 and fulfilled on them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that saith, With hearing ye shall hear, and ye shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and ye shall not perceive,
15 for made gross was the heart of this people, and with the ears they heard heavily, and their eyes they did close, lest they might see with the eyes, and with the ears might hear, and with the heart understand, and turn back, and I might heal them.
16 `And happy are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear,

So , the story in question " the rich man and Lazarus." ? Preceeding & in the same discourse ;

Luke 16:14 And also the Pharisees, being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding him,
15 and he said to them, `Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts; because that which among men is high, [is] abomination before God;
16 the law and the prophets [are] till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into it;

The " rich man & Lazarus " story starts three verses later V.19 without YAHshua taking a breath . So Saints , what say YOU ? Rock hard Revelation truth ? of a clouded metaphor ?

This is only a PART of who is in hell today. No one should form a doctrine from one verse, when there are many verses that speak of PEOPLE being cast into hell. Perhaps you should read the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

" Perhaps you should read the story of the rich man and Lazarus. " Ya , that's a great example !

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