Rapture Before Wrath

bibletruth469 · Aug 3, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
Many can argue causes; a fool will argue with a petty mouth and bitter words because his cause is weak; a wise man will decide a cause because he can communicate without irony or sarcasm. Bibletruth wrote, "simply look at the very few verses that pretribbers always use as "proof text" for this false doctrine and you'll always notice a simple fact, there is never an emphatic statement or promise of a pretribulation gathering of saints...1Thess 4 , one of their favorite is a prime example....read the whole chapter and you notice that Paul doesn't even mention tribulation much less a before or after gathering. ........the simple fact is every single verse that pretrib makes use of is actually mis-used because they ASSUME(inject) this false doctrine into the text." Phil replies, obviously you're a closed minded person. Why do I say this, because of the words you have injected into your comments, "Mis-used; assume; false doctrine." You must be that person that knows everything about this subject, so you have closed the door to any reasonable discussion. But let me say this; the rapture of the church had been kept secret, a mystery kept in God until he revealed it to Paul, 1 Cor. written in 56 A.D. and 1 Thes. in 52 A.D. some 25 years after the Lord was taken up. Even the apostles had no knowledge of the "catching away of the body of Christ." Why would Paul mention tribulation to the church, the bride of Chist will not be involved in it. The tribulation is for the Jews, it will conclude the 70th week of the curse God put on the Jews in Dan.9:24, God said to Daniel, "Seventy weeks are determined upon THY (your) people (the Jews, not the church) and upon the Holy city (Jerusalem) to FINISH the transgression." The Christian Church never transgressed against God, it was the Jews. Of course you must know all this because you give me the impression you know everything there is to know about the subject. No disrespect meant, Phil

I agree with you about the rapture being kept a mystery until revealed to Paul . Yes, the tribulation is not meant for the church, but for the unbelieving Jews to come to a saving faith in The Lord Jesus Christ . Daniels 70 th week has yet to begin. It will begin with the confirming of the peace accord between the Jews and the antichrist. I believe that the rapture will take place before this time and then the wrath will begin.

Note: I think that you were referring to Manessiah instead of me with above post.

bibletruth469 · Aug 3, 2014

Lollerskates said:
Exactly. Tribulation is here, and has been here since Christ was resurrected to life. Even He said (paraphrase,) "if they do this to me, and you follow me, then they will do it to you." It, being persecution. We may not be nailed to crosses, maybe we will, but we aren't excluded from persecution. Daniel 11 makes this clear; tried by fire, spoil, captivity, and sword. Our hope isn't I surviving in this world; it is really in resurrection, and Christ. So, a rapture to save us from the bad times seems even counterproductive to what God does anyway. Noah wasn't saved from the end of the world; he was a witness, and protected. The slaves-turned-Isr Hebrews weren't rapture from Egypt (and the world's) demise; they were witnesses, and protected. We won't be raptured from this "end of the world (and so we know it,) we will be witnesses, and protected - those of us not tried. There are martyrs to this day dying for their faith, imprisoned, beheaded, etc. As said, they are no better than any other human - saint or not. Only Christ can boast (yet, He doesnt.) He is really the only one that was worthy to escape wrath, yet God poured His full portion on Him. The kicker, I suppose, is to be like Christ so that perhaps you will be counted worthy of escaping. There will be saints alive when Christ comes back - resurrected to perfection after the dead.

There is tribulation in people's daily lives . Yes, Christian believers are dying for their faith every day. This is very different than Daniels 70 th week and the great tribulation . No one will be able to escape and will run and hide for their lives. There will be worldwide calamities as no one has ever seen . Everyone in the world would die if the days were not cut short by Christ himself .

It is not just about a rapture to save us from bad times as you put it. The last 2000 plus years, we have been living in the church age. The rapture will happen whether people are ready or not. This is what the scripture teaches.

TPeterY · Aug 4, 2014

Manasseh_ said:
Christ himself said in Matt 24's prophecy that he comes at a specific time , after tribulation , then gathers his elect, that's a prophecy, a promise and a direct statement on when he will gather the elect............pretrib has no scripture such as this and others that state when he comes,

Hi there,

I don't know if you noticed this but Matthew 24 points to a Pre-Trib rapture "twice" in Matt 24:31 and Matt 24:14.

Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The key word in Matt 24:31 is "heaven." Christ send His angels to gather His elects (FirstFruit of the Church) in heaven.

You can't rapture or resurrect anyone already in heaven. Even Mark 13:27 confirms the gathering of the FirstFruit of the church already raptured and waiting in heaven (in our individual chambers: Mansion - Isaiah 26:20) and the FirstFruit of Israel left on earth that must go through Jacob's trouble.

Matthew 24:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Noticed how Matthew used the words "then the end will come" at verse 14? He's referring to the end for the church, which is before the tribulation. Notice Matthew starts talking about the tribulation at Matthew 24:15?

Now for those wondering why did Matthew skips 3.5 years into the AoD when that's at the middle of the tribulation, it's because Israel is at peace the first half of the tribulation and the church is gone. Therefore nothing needs to be written about the first 3.5 years.

1 Corinthians 15:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

"THE END" in Matt 24:14 is the same as the one in 1st Cor 15:24, they both refer to the end in the chapter of the Church Age and the start of the tribulation.

The end for the church is at the beginning of the tribulation or you can call it Pre-Trib, it's not at the end of the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation is a time of deliverance for the 144,000 FirstFruit of Israel where Christ returns to save them from annihilation, not the church.

So in Matthew 24, there's two evidence of a Pre-Trib rapture, and a debunk of a Post-Trib rapture.

___________________________________

One other thing, there's a resurrection of the dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation of only those that died of beheading to the antichrist during the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 20:4. Only they get resurrected, there's no rapture, and no resurrection of the dead in Christ that ever lived before the tribulation.

Now if the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, why would there be a need for a resurrection at the end also. And why only those that died by beheading will get to live again and reign with Christ?

So from a post-trib viewpoint, the only way to live and reign with Christ while in the tribulation is to die to the Antichrist by beheading, not by natural disaster or nuclear annihilation.

And it doesn't do much good preparing yourself stocking up on canned goods and living in a bomb shelter in the tribulation because the bible said if you're in the tribulation, the only way to reign with Christ is to die by beheading.

I don't think this is God's planned is for the church.

Revelation 20:4 New Living Translation (NLT)
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Just something to think about.

.

TPeterY · Aug 4, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period. First of all, let's look at Titus 2:13. It states, " Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and savior Jesus Christ". We Christian believers are not looking for wrath, but as this verse states, we are looking for His glorious appearing to us which will take place at the rapture.

Believers are anxiously awaiting for the rapture to take place. 1 thess 1:10," And to wait for His Son from heaven whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come". To wait means to have great expectation and fulfillments of Gods promises to the saints.

Now look at 1 thess 5:9," For God hath not appointed us to wrath, But to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". In contrast, rev 6:16 ," And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the Lamb".and Matt 24:21 ," for then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be". These verses mention the horrific time period which is the tribulation period. I draw my conclusion that the saints will be ( delivered, raptured, caught up) whichever term one wants to use, before the tribulation.

There are also hints of a rapture before wrath that can be found in the Old Testament . Look at Isaiah 26:19-21," thy dead men shall live together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come my people , enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment , until the indignation be over past. For behold, The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity : the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain".

Christ will rapture genuine believers out of the world to escape wrath. Look at rev 3:10," Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth". The hour of temptation which has not occurred yet, is a worldwide testing. Christ promises to Keep them From( Greek word, ' ek' out of) the tribulation.

In conclusion , the believers that are' in Christ' will not have to endure the wrath of the tribulation, but will be caught up to meet The Lord in the air and forever will be with The Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 thess 4:17-18.

Nice write up Bibletruth. I'm shamefully embarrassed to say I've never read the books of Titus and Philemon before and just learned something new with Titus 2:13. Accurate too.

And you're always welcomes to use any material I've written. Same for everyone else too. I'm here to help find the truth.

Manasseh_ · Aug 4, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
Many can argue causes; a fool will argue with a petty mouth and bitter words because his cause is weak; a wise man will decide a cause because he can communicate without irony or sarcasm.

apparently my words are only bitter because I spoke the truth, I used no sarcasm or irony, no need to.........the simple fact remains as stated, your cause has no foundation at all from scripture, you have to assume pretrib into every verse you attempt to use..........the reasons are obvious , all anyone has to do is read the verses pretrib uses and see there are never any emphatic statements made regarding a pretrib gathering......

Manasseh_ · Aug 4, 2014

TPeterY said:
Hi there,

I don't know if you noticed this but Matthew 24 points to a Pre-Trib rapture "twice" in Matt 24:31 and Matt 24:14.

Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The key word in Matt 24:31 is "heaven." Christ send His angels to gather His elects (FirstFruit of the Church) in heaven.

You conveniently skipped over verse 29 where Christ said the tribulation is already over , the events you mention happen after, not before just as Christ foretold in this prophecy.........just another among many attempts to inject pretrib into scripture

keras · Aug 4, 2014

Manasseh, I fully agree with your posts, the pre trib rapture proponent's must interpret scriptures to suit their belief. They assume something that simply is not there.
But what they fail to take note of is the many verses that say all will be tested:
Luke 21:35, Zephaniah 3:8, 1 Peter 4:12

Danoh · Aug 4, 2014

From the Mid-Acts Dispensational Perspective its not that the Rapture was kept a Mystery til Paul, rather, that it is part of the Mystery concerning a new creature: that church which is Christ's Body, comprising Jews and Gentiles - both saved in Uncircumcision - via his distinct, "my gospel... the gospel of the Uncircumcision... of gospel of the Grace of God in His goodness this side of His severity against Israel, in its all day gainsaying, or speaking against, the Holy Spirit's Early Acts continued ministry of the Lord's ministry to them in Matth. thru John, as to their gospel of the circumcision under the Law and their Covenants.

With their fall, God, was to have begun to have spoken to them in His wrath, per Daniel 9 in light of Leviticus 26, which is why Stephen saw Christ standing at the right hand of God, just after Israel, in Acts 7, commited the unpardonable sin they were warned against in Matt. 12:30-32.

He was standing because, per Isaiah 3:13, Israel was now headed towards Daniel's 70th week: God's wrath to come under the Law, Daniel 9; Lev. 26, upon that nation.

Instead, however, He turned from them in His wrath once more, in His severity, toward these vessels fitted for destruction, that, in His goodness He might show His mercy on those vessels of mercy then ready to receive His salvation but for Israel's obstinancy, Rom. 9-11.

Instead of allowing them to continue to head toward the day of His wrath under the Law, He concluded them blind to their Acts 3 gospel of the Circumcision, and sealed the election of that nation, "they of the Circumcision which believed," Acts 10:45, back when said gospel was in its last hours, God foreknowing Israel's filling its sins against Him and His Christ by their blasphemy against the Spirit.

Instead of allowing them to continue to head towards Daniel's 70th week, He turned from them in His wrath, just as Romans 1-3 asserts, and began to reveal "a Mystery," He had kept "hid in" Himself, Eph. 3:9, concerning a new creature, one day to reign as His Son's co-heir with Him, as His fulness, as that fulness by which He will one day fill those thrones, dominions, principalities in the Heavenlies with.

This church: the Body of Christ, began with Paul, after Israel's fall, saved as he was in Uncircumcision as Israel's chief blasphmer, unsaveable under the terms of their circumcision gospel: God saved him in His long suffering by His Grace, for a pattern of said longsuffering under Grace.

We have been delivered from the wrath to come because said wrath to come is per the Law, and we are neither under the Law, nor entered into its conditional wrath, as Israel did, per Leviticus 26, and midway through Daniel 9 reveals.

As a result of the above, 70 AD had no more to do with God, other thsn His having turned from Israel, anymore than 1948, as God put His Prophesied Plan and Purpose for Israel on hold, just before He saved Saul in his Uncircumcision and sent His Uncircumcision salvation to all without distinction, Acts 22; Rom. 3; Rom. 9-11.

As a result, whether Jew or Gentile, for God was now temporarily no longer dealing with people on the basis of Israel's distinction above all the nations of the Earth, one has to come to God through Paul's Uncircumcision gospel, Rom. 3.

In all this, the Body is not so much Pre-Trib, as Pre-Prophecy - pre- God's turning His attention one day to at last making a short work [7 years] upon this work, in righteousness - to finish the transgression for which He began Daniel's Seventy Weeks upon HIS people, to begin with, and by that, to make an end of their having filled up of their sins against Him, and all the rest of that... Daniel 9.

We consider "New Testament times," and all that, but not as men count God's timeline. Rather, as He does in His Word.

I swear we too often appear to be looking at these things, not from, "Nevertheless what saith the Scripture?" but from what saith the Scholars through their view of Scripture through the viewpoint of secular history made to teach God's Word.

Respectfully...

Bro in Christ · Aug 4, 2014

we all believe in the bible here ? correct ?

if the scripture does not line up to our thinking maybe our theology is a little bit missing the mark where Christ wants us to be.....

1 cor 15 is the resurrection chapter in the bible !

I will start with some context ...

1 cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die[at different times], even so in Christ shall all be made alive. How and when are we made alive ?

1 cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits [firstfruits is plural! lets define it with scripture romans 8:23 states that we have the firstfruits of the spirit... which is very important Rev 4-5 which is before any judgements are poured out on earth ; afterward they that are Christ's at his[what coming? ...2nd! and to where ?on earth! Matt 25:33 sheep and goat judgement ] coming.

1 cor 15:24 Then cometh the end[Rev 20:11-15 judgement of the dead] , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God[2 peter 3:10-12 ] , even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

We can go to Heb 11 also to show another reason for a better salvation than all these people listed

Bro in Christ · Aug 4, 2014

TPeterY;66109036 Hi there said:
Rapture of the church is a mystery truth given by Paul in 1 cor 15:51-53 this means it was hidden from everyone knowledge till Paul eph 3:9-10, col 1:26, romans 16:25-26

Matt 24:14 is talking about the 144,000 when they are given the gift of tongues to communicate the gospel of the Kingdom

Matt 24:31 this is the gathering of the 144,000 not the church since there is three resurrection mentioned in 1 cor 15:22-24 [/COLOR]

Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The key word in Matt 24:31 is "heaven." Christ send His angels to gather His elects (FirstFruit of the Church) in heaven.

You can't rapture or resurrect anyone already in heaven. Even Mark 13:27 confirms the gathering of the FirstFruit of the church already raptured and waiting in heaven (in our individual chambers: Mansion - Isaiah 26:20) and the FirstFruit of Israel left on earth that must go through Jacob's trouble.

Yet the church is the firstfruit of Christ ..romans 8:23 since we are put into Christ in 1 cor 12:13 and since we have the greatest salvation out of three different groups that are saved ! heb 11

Matthew 24:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Noticed how Matthew used the words "then the end will come" at verse 14? He's referring to the end for the church, which is before the tribulation. Notice Matthew starts talking about the tribulation at Matthew 24:15?

Now for those wondering why did Matthew skips 3.5 years into the AoD when that's at the middle of the tribulation, it's because Israel is at peace the first half of the tribulation and the church is gone. Therefore nothing needs to be written about the first 3.5 years.

1 Corinthians 15:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

what end ? this is the end of the tribulation ... why 2 peter 3:10-12,rev 20:11-15 happens after the 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth...

"THE END" in Matt 24:14 is the same as the one in 1st Cor 15:24, they both refer to the end in the chapter of the Church Age and the start of the tribulation.

sorry mistaken

The end for the church is at the beginning of the tribulation or you can call it Pre-Trib, it's not at the end of the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation is a time of deliverance for the 144,000 FirstFruit of Israel where Christ returns to save them from annihilation, not the church.

So in Matthew 24, there's two evidence of a Pre-Trib rapture, and a debunk of a Post-Trib rapture.

___________________________________

One other thing, there's a resurrection of the dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation of only those that died of beheading to the antichrist during the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 20:4. Only they get resurrected, there's no rapture, and no resurrection of the dead in Christ that ever lived before the tribulation. if they have been resurrected why are their souls crying out for vengenous ? when we know from james 1:19-20 that no righteousness comes from mans wrath ... these saints are awaiting for eternal life that was promised according to Daniel 12:11-13 after beheaded by the beast of the great trib

Now if the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, why would there be a need for a resurrection at the end also. And why only those that died by beheading will get to live again and reign with Christ?

So from a post-trib viewpoint, the only way to live and reign with Christ while in the tribulation is to die to the Antichrist by beheading, not by natural disaster or nuclear annihilation.

And it doesn't do much good preparing yourself stocking up on canned goods and living in a bomb shelter in the tribulation because the bible said if you're in the tribulation, the only way to reign with Christ is to die by beheading.

I don't think this is God's planned is for the church.

Revelation 20:4 New Living Translation (NLT)
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Just something to think about.

1 thes 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I agree with the idea just taking the bible out of context

Danoh · Aug 4, 2014

Brother in Christ, be careful - some might confuse your Acts Two Dispensationalism the same as my Mid-Acts

Bro in Christ · Aug 4, 2014

I teach bible .... and God will judge the teacher with greater judgement

so I take it serious... and I take all verses in consideration in context

bibletruth469 · Aug 4, 2014

Manasseh_ said:
Christ himself said in Matt 24's prophecy that he comes at a specific time , after tribulation , then gathers his elect, that's a prophecy, a promise and a direct statement on when he will gather the elect............pretrib has no scripture such as this and others that state when he comes, again you have to assume this false doctrine into any verse used by pretrib, can't start with a doctrine then attempt to locate scripture to support it, you have to go to scripture first to find the truth, a good example are the Bereans who did as such

Well, the first step in studying this very important issue is for one to realize that the rapture and the second coming are two distinct events . Yes, one must be a berean and especially pray for God to reveal His truth contained within the scripture . I really do not think that someone can simply take one verse and make a doctrine out of it. We must search the entire passages pertaining to the subject to find the answer. Also, a literal interpretation of the scripture is important for understanding the true meaning being conveyed within the various passages .

One example of a difference between the rapture and the second coming is explained below:

The rapture is the return of Christ in the air to remove all believers before wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation period to an end. There are many other examples of the differences between the 2 separate comings of Christ. I can list them, however a new thread needs to be started to show the differences .

I really have searched the scriptures and have found examples of a pretribulation rapture . I have yet to see your examples of the post tribulation rapture .

miamited · Aug 4, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period. First of all, let's look at Titus 2:13. It states, " Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and savior Jesus Christ". We Christian believers are not looking for wrath, but as this verse states, we are looking for His glorious appearing to us which will take place at the rapture.

Believers are anxiously awaiting for the rapture to take place. 1 thess 1:10," And to wait for His Son from heaven whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come". To wait means to have great expectation and fulfillments of Gods promises to the saints.

Now look at 1 thess 5:9," For God hath not appointed us to wrath, But to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". In contrast, rev 6:16 ," And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the Lamb".and Matt 24:21 ," for then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be". These verses mention the horrific time period which is the tribulation period. I draw my conclusion that the saints will be ( delivered, raptured, caught up) whichever term one wants to use, before the tribulation.

There are also hints of a rapture before wrath that can be found in the Old Testament . Look at Isaiah 26:19-21," thy dead men shall live together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come my people , enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment , until the indignation be over past. For behold, The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity : the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain".

Christ will rapture genuine believers out of the world to escape wrath. Look at rev 3:10," Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth". The hour of temptation which has not occurred yet, is a worldwide testing. Christ promises to Keep them From( Greek word, ' ek' out of) the tribulation.

In conclusion , the believers that are' in Christ' will not have to endure the wrath of the tribulation, but will be caught up to meet The Lord in the air and forever will be with The Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 thess 4:17-18.

Hi BT,

Unfortunately, there are many among the fellowship of 'christians' who have bought into this understanding that the passages that speak of God's wrath and the passages that speak of the tribulation are the same thing. I'm solidly convicted that they aren't, but you'll have to choose to study up on that if you want to know.

Here's the gist of it. The tribulation is the time of suffering pressed upon believers by the policies and practices of the Antichrist and all those that will follow after him, which according to the Scriptures will be just about everyone. The wrath of God is God's doing. It is His wrath that will be released upon the whole earth against those remaining after the rapture. It is my understanding that believers will be on the earth during the tribulation, but they won't be on the earth when God releases His wrath.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

bibletruth469 · Aug 4, 2014

keras said:
Manasseh, I fully agree with your posts, the pre trib rapture proponent's must interpret scriptures to suit their belief. They assume something that simply is not there. But what they fail to take note of is the many verses that say all will be tested: Luke 21:35, Zephaniah 3:8, 1 Peter 4:12

I looked up these verses that you listed. How do these examples prove your point? I believe that The Lord wants us to study His word and search for truth. I personally believe that the rapture will happen before the tribulation . Other believers in Christ may believe that the rapture will happen after tribulation . Eschatology does not determine one's salvation. Only our belief in Christ and what He has done for us is what saves .

Manasseh_ · Aug 4, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
Well, the first step in studying this very important issue is for one to realize that the rapture and the second coming are two distinct events . Yes, one must be a berean and especially pray for God to reveal His truth contained within the scripture . I really do not think that someone can simply take one verse and make a doctrine out of it. We must search the entire passages pertaining to the subject to find the answer. Also, a literal interpretation of the scripture is important for understanding the true meaning being conveyed within the various passages .

One example of a difference between the rapture and the second coming is explained below:

The rapture is the return of Christ in the air to remove all believers before wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation period to an end. There are many other examples of the differences between the 2 separate comings of Christ. I can list them, however a new thread needs to be started to show the differences .

I really have searched the scriptures and have found examples of a pretribulation rapture . I have yet to see your examples of the post tribulation rapture .

the issue here is not defending post trib, the issue is regarding pretrib and the very shaky foundation on which it attempts to stand on, again stated as before, there is not one single verse /prophecy that directly says Christ returns before tribulation to gather his elect, each and every verse used by the pretrib camp is always the same, this doctrine has to be assumed into scripture, God says he can declare the end right from the beginning, something he has done, and he didn't do it based on assumption, conjecture and only suggesting that any verse says so..........never have understood why pretribbers can never see this great discrepancy with the few verses they always use to "prove" this doctrine to be true ???

Danoh · Aug 4, 2014

Bro in Christ said:
I teach bible .... and God will judge the teacher with greater judgement

so I take it serious... and I take all verses in consideration in context

Right there is that distinction that greatly impacts all subsequent distinctions. See, its fine to believe one is studying and or teaching in context.

The real problem, though, is what each concludes the actual contexts supposedly is.

Acts Two Dispensationalism, for example, more or less originated the phrase, "Pre-Trib Rapture."

It did so from its conclusion that the Rapture would take place within the context of God's dealings with Israel, because it never fully severed itself from the Replacement Theology it arose in opposition to.

To this day, it begins its context within an Israelite Feast Day under the Law, which it then contends gave way to some psuedo Judeo-Christian faith.

As if those Messianic Believers at Pentecost were not Christian, in sense the of that word - of Christ as Savior.

The Rapture is not Pre-Trib. Rather, it is Pre-Prophecy. It is Pre-God's turning His attention once more to finishing up at last His Prophesied Purpose for Israel. He cleanses them to that through the Tribulation of His refiner's fire PER THE LAW.

The Body never was, nor is, under the Law. There is no Pre-Trib Deliverance for we are not under the Law it is based on

Neither is the Body some sort of hybrid born on an Israelite Feast Day, nor have we in any way, shape or form replaced what God, not began at Pentecost, as Acts Dispensationalism asserts, but began given Israel a foretaste of their world to come there.

All that greatly that greatly impacts one's eschatology, due to the resulting different "context" each group that comes along and "ignorant of this mystery" just lumps in this with that as if the mail, just because it is all found in the same room, is right off concluded as addressed to anyone who walks in there to claim it as His own.

Not M.A.D. at ya, brother, just food for thought

bibletruth469 · Aug 4, 2014

TPeterY said:
Hi there, I don't know if you noticed this but Matthew 24 points to a Pre-Trib rapture "twice" in Matt 24:31 and Matt 24:14. Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The key word in Matt 24:31 is "heaven." Christ send His angels to gather His elects (FirstFruit of the Church) in heaven. You can't rapture or resurrect anyone already in heaven. Even Mark 13:27 confirms the gathering of the FirstFruit of the church already raptured and waiting in heaven (in our individual chambers: Mansion - Isaiah 26:20) and the FirstFruit of Israel left on earth that must go through Jacob's trouble. Matthew 24:14 New King James Version (NKJV) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Noticed how Matthew used the words "then the end will come" at verse 14? He's referring to the end for the church, which is before the tribulation. Notice Matthew starts talking about the tribulation at Matthew 24:15? Now for those wondering why did Matthew skips 3.5 years into the AoD when that's at the middle of the tribulation, it's because Israel is at peace the first half of the tribulation and the church is gone. Therefore nothing needs to be written about the first 3.5 years. 1 Corinthians 15:24 New King James Version (NKJV) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. "THE END" in Matt 24:14 is the same as the one in 1st Cor 15:24, they both refer to the end in the chapter of the Church Age and the start of the tribulation. The end for the church is at the beginning of the tribulation or you can call it Pre-Trib, it's not at the end of the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation is a time of deliverance for the 144,000 FirstFruit of Israel where Christ returns to save them from annihilation, not the church. So in Matthew 24, there's two evidence of a Pre-Trib rapture, and a debunk of a Post-Trib rapture. ___________________________________ One other thing, there's a resurrection of the dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation of only those that died of beheading to the antichrist during the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 20:4. Only they get resurrected, there's no rapture, and no resurrection of the dead in Christ that ever lived before the tribulation. Now if the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, why would there be a need for a resurrection at the end also. And why only those that died by beheading will get to live again and reign with Christ? So from a post-trib viewpoint, the only way to live and reign with Christ while in the tribulation is to die to the Antichrist by beheading, not by natural disaster or nuclear annihilation. And it doesn't do much good preparing yourself stocking up on canned goods and living in a bomb shelter in the tribulation because the bible said if you're in the tribulation, the only way to reign with Christ is to die by beheading. I don't think this is God's planned is for the church. Revelation 20:4 New Living Translation (NLT) Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Just something to think about. .

This is a very interesting perspective with a lot of depth in this post.

Bro in Christ · Aug 4, 2014

Danoh said:
Right there is that distinction that greatly impacts all subsequent distinctions. See, its fine to believe one is studying and or teaching in context.

The real problem, though, is what each concludes the actual contexts supposedly is.

Acts Two Dispensationalism, for example, more or less originated the phrase, "Pre-Trib Rapture."

It did so from its conclusion that the Rapture would take place within the context of God's dealings with Israel, because it never fully severed itself from the Replacement Theology it arose in opposition to.

We have not replace the Jews... we have the greatest salvation offered from God.... Heb 11and this is by grace as a gift eph 2 yet the point of acts 2 is the spirit indwelling by the Baptist of the spirit 1 cor 12:13 which was told of in acts 1:5which and entire new thing for believers .... did they understand or have all the information to live it out... no But God gave sign gifts till the bible was fulfilled

To this day, it begins its context within an Israelite Feast Day under the Law, which it then contends gave way to some psuedo Judeo-Christian faith.

As if those Messianic Believers at Pentecost were not Christian, in sense the of that word - of Christ as Savior.

The Rapture is not Pre-Trib. Rather, it is Pre-Prophecy. It is Pre-God's turning His attention once more to finishing up at last His Prophesied Purpose for Israel. He cleanses them to that through the Tribulation of His refiner's fire PER THE LAW.

Prophecy started in gen 3 so what are you talking about? Israel has not gone thru matt 24:21 which can be proven with history ... so till Romans 11:25-26 happens

The Body never was, nor is, under the Law. There is no Pre-Trib Deliverance for we are not under the Law it is based on

prophesy of Daniels 70th week I see you do not understand...

Neither is the Body some sort of hybrid born on an Israelite Feast Day, nor have we in any way, shape or form replaced what God, not began at Pentecost, as Acts Dispensationalism asserts, but began given Israel a foretaste of their world to come there.

All that greatly that greatly impacts one's eschatology, due to the resulting different "context" each group that comes along and "ignorant of this mystery" just lumps in this with that as if the mail, just because it is all found in the same room, is right off concluded as addressed to anyone who walks in there to claim it as His own.

Not M.A.D. at ya, brother, just food for thought

think about it

Danoh · Aug 4, 2014

B.I.C., if you're familiar with the history of Acts Dispenasationalism's Eschatology, it progressed from the distinction that passages like Matt. 24 taught a Pre-Trib Rapture, to no longer holding to that.

In this, it progressed in those finer distinctions these issues demand be studied out.

It has yet to progress from its continued assertion that the Body began on what that Apostle of the CIRCUMCISION - Israel - refers to as Israel's "last days," there in Acts 2.

Nor does it distinguish between Israel's baptism with the Spirit by Christ, Matt. 3, and the Body's baptism by the Spirit, 1 Cor. 12.

And those are just two of the many distinctions between things that Acts Two Dispensationalism is off on.

In fact, most of those Eschatological distinctions A2D makes to the Body are, when corrrect, Mid-Acts.

Gainsay it all you want, but, seeing as we will all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, you should at least receive it with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures daily whether those things are so, Acts 17:11.

Instead, you right off write it off because it doesn't fit your "context."

Brother, consider what I say, and the Lord give thee understanding...

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