Rapture B4 judgment and wrath - Paul KNEW!

[HisdaughterJen]

How did Paul know that the rapture comes before judgment and wrath?

Since God doesn't change, there must be passages of scripture that confirm Paul's words. Like the Bereans, we should be able to search the scriptures (Law, Prophets, and the Psalms) to see if what Paul said was true!


So, Paul said:

1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.



Rom 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co‑heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Rom 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.



Old Testament passages:


Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.





Psa 50:4 He summons the heavens above,
and the earth, that he may judge his people:
Psa 50:5 “Gather to me my consecrated ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”





Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.




Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.




Paul said:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (Isaiah 26:19-21)1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (Exodus 19:10-20): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (There must be an OT passage for this or else it has something to do with the location of the New Jerusalem, therefore the connection is Exodus 19 to Hebrews 12:18+ or to Jesus' own words in John 14:1-3) : and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here's Exodus:

Exd 19:10 And the Lord said to Moses (type of Jesus), “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow (two days). Have them wash their clothes (Rev 7)
Exd 19:11 and be ready by the third day (millennium), because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
Exd 19:12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
Exd 19:13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.” (last trumpet (Jubilee))
Exd 19:14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes.
Exd 19:15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”
Exd 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
Exd 19:17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Exd 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently,
Exd 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.
Exd 19:20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Paul did not teach the pretrib rapture, nor did Jesus, nor does the Bible period. It was thought up by John Darby in the 1800s and is a cancer on the church.

 

[Biblewriter]

Paul did not teach the pretrib rapture, nor did Jesus, nor does the Bible period. It was thought up by John Darby in the 1800s and is a cancer on the church.

It was popularized by John Darby. But at least two others taught it in the 1700's (before Darby was born in 1801) and one before the year 650.

And before you bring it up, there is exactly zero evidence to support the claim that Darby got the idea from Margaret MacDonald. Darby is accused of hiding the fact that he visited her church and got the idea from her. The truth is that Darby openly wrote about visiting her church, and pronounced his opinion that it was Satanic in origin.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

It was popularized by John Darby. But at least two others taught it in the 1700's (before Darby was born in 1801) and one before the year 650.

And before you bring it up, there is exactly zero evidence to support the claim that Darby got the idea from Margaret MacDonald. Darby is accused of hiding the fact that he visited her church and got the idea from her. The truth is that Darby openly wrote about visiting her church, and pronounced his opinion that it was Satanic in origin.

What was satanic in origin?

 

[xcrunner71]

No prophecy is of private interpetation, try to live by those words, they come from the Bible. We don't know when the rapture will be, what it will really be like, we don't know really much about the end times other than that we are in the last hour, the end times. John clearly states that we are in the end times, as existents of antichrists in his day, yet look at today, how many there still are, yet they are of no match to our Christ Jesus. Hope this helps you a bit, Peace be with you.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Why is this not clear to people? We receive our salvation PRIOR to judgment and wrath. All of these scriptures say that we receive salvation, enter our rooms, are rescued, gathered, and received prior to judgment and wrath. Furthermore, the post-trib idea has the church caught up AFTER judgment and wrath when Christ has physically returned. By the time Christ physically returns, all the judgment and wrath have been poured out and evil people will have been killed. Our salvation is BEFORE judgment and wrath, not after!

1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead–Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.


Psa 50:4 He summons the heavens above,
and the earth, that he may judge his people:
Psa 50:5 “Gather to me my consecrated ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”


Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.

 

[Slothapotamus]

It was popularized by John Darby. But at least two others taught it in the 1700's (before Darby was born in 1801) and one before the year 650.

And before you bring it up, there is exactly zero evidence to support the claim that Darby got the idea from Margaret MacDonald. Darby is accused of hiding the fact that he visited her church and got the idea from her. The truth is that Darby openly wrote about visiting her church, and pronounced his opinion that it was Satanic in origin.

I've read the Margaret MacDonald "prophecy". Hal Lindsey has it in full in his book "Vanished Into Thin Air". In one part she states that the rapture occurs before the tribulation. Then later during her speech she implies it will happen after the tribulation. Most of the prophecy read like a rant about ungodliness and God's coming judgement and there was no clear sequence of events.

Margaret was 15 (if I remember rightly) when she gave this speech; so a very young girl, and not at all a mature Christian. People who refute the pre-trib rapture theory often insist that it was invented by Margaret MacDonald, which is at worst a lie, and at best a misunderstanding of the history of the pre-trib theory.

I've always been suspicious of the pre-trib theory. I've got no clear conclusions myself on whether the rapture happens before, during or after the tribulation. Whenever it happens though, many Christians are going to be proved wrong hehe.

 

[Slothapotamus]

What was satanic in origin?

The Margaret MacDonald prophecy. I wouldn't say it was Satanic. I'd say it was more like a young girl getting over-exciting in the gifts of the Spirit. The gift of Prophecy is the most abused, misused and misunderstood gift being used by Christians, but that's a rant for another thread someday. Suffice it to say, poor Margaret was most likely just over-excited when she gave the now infamous prophecy she will forever be remembered for.

 

[Bible2]

The rapture at the second coming (Revelation 19:7)
will be before the subsequent judgment and wrath at
the second coming (Revelation 19:11-21). But the
rapture at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
will still be after the entire tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18. For at his
coming to rapture the church, Jesus will destroy the
Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).
Before the second coming, some in the church will
suffer and die under the Antichrist (Revelation
13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

But nothing which the church will suffer during the
tribulation (e.g. Matthew 24:9-13) will be God's wrath
against the church, for no one who has obtained
salvation can be appointed to God's wrath
(1 Thessalonians 5:9). That's why those in the church
who will still be alive on the earth near the end of
the tribulation, during the vials of God's wrath in
Revelation 16, will still be blessed and waiting for
Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). They will
go into protective chambers on the earth during the
vials of wrath (Isaiah 26:20), just like Noah went
into the protective ark during God's wrath in the
flood.

Isaiah 26:19 will happen after Isaiah 26:20, just as,
for example, Matthew 14:2 happened after Matthew 14:3,
for the resurrection of the church won't happen until
the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, Revelation
20:4-6), and the second coming won't happen until
Revelation 19:7, after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18.

Psalms 50:4-5 is the same gathering together of the
church as Mark 13:27, which won't happen until after
the tribulation, at the second coming (Mark 13:24-27).

Exodus 19:10-20 isn't a type of the rapture, for in
Exodus 19:10-20 only Moses went up on the mountain,
whereas at the rapture the whole church will go up
into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his
way down to the earth at his second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Neither Hebrews 12:22 nor
John 14:1-3 says or requires that the church will be
taken to New Jerusalem in heaven at the second coming,
for the church must first reign on the earth with
Jesus for 1000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10,
2:26-29). And after that and subsequent events
(Revelation 20:7-15), New Jerusalem (the Father's
house) will come down out of heaven to a new earth
(Revelation 21:1-4). That will be when all those in
the church will live in the place Jesus has prepared
for them (John 14:2).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The rapture at the second coming (Revelation 19:7)
will be before the subsequent judgment and wrath at
the second coming (Revelation 19:11-21). But the
rapture at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
will still be after the entire tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18. For at his
coming to rapture the church, Jesus will destroy the
Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).
Before the second coming, some in the church will
suffer and die under the Antichrist (Revelation
13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

But nothing which the church will suffer during the
tribulation (e.g. Matthew 24:9-13) will be God's wrath
against the church, for no one who has obtained
salvation can be appointed to God's wrath
(1 Thessalonians 5:9). That's why those in the church
who will still be alive on the earth near the end of
the tribulation, during the vials of God's wrath in
Revelation 16, will still be blessed and waiting for
Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). They will
go into protective chambers on the earth during the
vials of wrath (Isaiah 26:20), just like Noah went
into the protective ark during God's wrath in the
flood.

Isaiah 26:19 will happen after Isaiah 26:20, just as,
for example, Matthew 14:2 happened after Matthew 14:3,
for the resurrection of the church won't happen until
the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, Revelation
20:4-6), and the second coming won't happen until
Revelation 19:7, after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18.

Psalms 50:4-5 is the same gathering together of the
church as Mark 13:27, which won't happen until after
the tribulation, at the second coming (Mark 13:24-27).

Exodus 19:10-20 isn't a type of the rapture, for in
Exodus 19:10-20 only Moses went up on the mountain,
whereas at the rapture the whole church will go up
into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his
way down to the earth at his second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Neither Hebrews 12:22 nor
John 14:1-3 says or requires that the church will be
taken to New Jerusalem in heaven at the second coming,
for the church must first reign on the earth with
Jesus for 1000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10,
2:26-29). And after that and subsequent events
(Revelation 20:7-15), New Jerusalem (the Father's
house) will come down out of heaven to a new earth
(Revelation 21:1-4). That will be when all those in
the church will live in the place Jesus has prepared
for them (John 14:2).

You need to go back to the scriptures. Hebrews 12 & Exodus 19:10-20 are discussing the similarities and differences of the two.

What do you think it's going to be like for us in glorified bodies reigning over the earth for 1000 years? Do you think we're going to live here among the mortals?

What do you think the place prepared is?

Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[Mark2010]

So when are people supposedly going to rise from the dead? Is that at this "rapture" before judgment, or when Jesus returns at a later time?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

So when are people supposedly going to rise from the dead? Is that at this "rapture" before judgment, or when Jesus returns at a later time?

Well, there are 3 resurrections coming and one at the end of the millennium.

1. resurrection and change to glorified bodies (rapture) before wrath - seal #5
2. two witnesses are resurrected and raptured which is a sign to Israel.
3. those who are beheaded by the beast for refusing to worship him will be resurrected when Christ physically returns after wrath has been poured out. These are the "more martyrs" that God mentioned to the Bride when they asked Him when He was going to judge and He gave them "white robes" (Rev 6 - 5th seal)




Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.

 

[Bible2]

Hebrews 12:18-24, like Galatians 4:24-26, shows how
different the new covenant is from the old. Exodus
19:10-20 shows the same thing, for there only Moses
got to go up to meet God, while at the resurrection
and rapture of the church everyone in the church will
get to go up to meet Jesus, in the air on his way
down to the earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians
4:15-17), which won't happen until after the entire
tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over
(Revelation 19:7-20:6, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

The fifth seal (Revelation 6:9-11) will occur during
the tribulation; it's not the second coming or the
resurrection and rapture of the church, but simply the
giving of some literal white robes to the souls of the
dead martyrs of the church in heaven.

The raising of the two witnesses from the dead
(Revelation 11:11) will occur during the tribulation;
they won't be resurrected into immortality in
Revelation 11:11, but will simply have their mortal
bodies resuscitated back to life, like Lazarus and
Tabitha had their mortal bodies resuscitated back to
life (John 11:43, Acts 9:40).

Isaiah 26:19 is referring to the resurrection of the
church; but then Isaiah 26:20 takes a step back
chronologically (like, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes
a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2), for
Isaiah 26:20 is referring to those in the church who
will still be alive on the earth during the vials of
God's wrath (Revelation 16), still waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). They'll go into
protective chambers on the earth during the vials of
wrath, like Noah went into the protective ark during
the flood.

Revelation 20:4-6 is referring to the resurrection
of the church into immortality at the second coming
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-53), right after which,
during the millennium, the immortalized church will
reign on the earth (Revelation 5:10) with Jesus among
the still-mortal survivors of the second coming
(Zechariah 14:16-19), and with Jesus will rule them
with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29).

Jesus has prepared a place for the church in God the
Father's house (John 14:2), which is the city of New
Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3). While it's currently in
heaven (Hebrews 12:22), it will descend from heaven to
a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) after the millennium
and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), and then
the whole church will live with God the Father and
Jesus in the place prepared (Revelation 21:3-4).

 

[fritz300]

Paul did not teach the pretrib rapture, nor did Jesus, nor does the Bible period. It was thought up by John Darby in the 1800s and is a cancer on the church.

QFE

 

[TheCub]

The Myth of the Pre-Trib. Rapture

http://www.call2holiness.org/mythofrapture/MythofRaptureHTML.htm

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The Myth of the Pre-Trib. Rapture

http://www.call2holiness.org/mythofrapture/MythofRaptureHTML.htm

And WHEN it happens, as the Bible says, are you still going to side with the devil and call it a myth?

Rev 13:6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.





Do you see that there are people dwelling in heaven when the devil is cast down in the following passage:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”




Look closely at Rev 7. There are people standing before the throne and the Lamb, singing about salvation, wearing white robes (bridal clothes) given them in Seal #5 BEFORE judgment and wrath!

 

[TheCub]

I Corinthians 15

1 "Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. 2 Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; 4 that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Kephas, then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me. 11 Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12 But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. 15 Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised, 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. 22 For just as in Adam all die,

.so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, 23 but each one in proper order: Christ the first fruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; 24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 for "he subjected everything under his feet." But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?

30 Moreover, why are we endangering ourselves all the time? 31 Every day I face death; I swear it by the pride in you (brothers) that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If at Ephesus I fought with beasts, so to speak, what benefit was it to me? If the dead are not raised:
"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."
33 Do not be led astray:
"Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober as you ought and stop sinning. For some have no knowledge of God; I say this to your shame.
35 But someone may say, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come back?"
36 You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies.

.37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind; 38 but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for human beings, another kind of flesh for animals, another kind of flesh for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another. 41 The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible. 43 It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.

45 So, too, it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being," the last Adam a life-giving spirit. 46 But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven. 48 As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.
50 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

.nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. 54 And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about:
"Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain." (Cf. I Cor. 15)

Footnote to vs. 26: The last enemy . . . is death: a parenthesis that specifies the final fulfillment of the two Old Testament texts just referred to, Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 8:7. Death is not just one cosmic power among many, but the ultimate effect of sin in the universe (Cf 1 Cor 15:56; Romans 5:12). Christ defeats death where it prevails, in our bodies. The destruction of the last enemy is concretely the "coming to life" (1 Cor 15:22) of "those who belong to Christ" (1 Cor 15:23) . [emphasis mine]

In verse 22, St. Paul states it clearly and succinctly in one line: "For just as in Adam all die…" Had his statements at I Thessalonians 4:15-16 contemplated a "rapture" of the Church body and soul into Heaven in advance of the Great Tribulation, we would see evidence of it here. Guided by the Holy Spirit, surely he would have modified his statement, "For just as in Adam all die…", to except those who will be "raptured" body and soul. He did not --- He made no exceptions. He states clearly that all men must die.

We see additional evidence of the clear intent of St. Paul's words to the Thessalonians in I Corinthians 15:50 and in his letters to the Hebrews and Romans as follows:

"This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God…" (Cf. I Corinthians 15:50)

"Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment…"

(Cf. Hebrews 9:27)

"Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law. But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come." (Cf. Romans (5:12-14)

In furtherance of this discussion, it must be noted that nowhere in Holy Scripture does it state that the Church will be "raptured" body and soul into Heaven prior to the Great Tribulation, AND then afterwards return body and soul to Earth to die. This concept is nowhere to be found within Holy Scripture, the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, or the Catechism. [emphasis added].

Any suggestion otherwise, is a fabrication.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

So Jen, all the dead in Christ are given immortal and incorruptible bodies at the second coming. My question is. Can a mortal see the face of Jesus in his full glory and survive? Or will he be slain?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

So when are people supposedly going to rise from the dead? Is that at this "rapture" before judgment, or when Jesus returns at a later time?

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture are on the same day, the day of Jesus' 2nd coming not b4 it.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

The Myth of the Pre-Trib. Rapture

http://www.call2holiness.org/mythofrapture/MythofRaptureHTML.htm

I agree the pretrib rapture is a Myth, and as I have stated b4 it is a cancer on the church, but the fact that the catholics condemn it as false means nothing to me or many others posttribbers. We believe what we believe because what the Bible says not because of what catholicism thinks