Random Thoughts On Religious Appropriation

Thatgirloncfforums

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I don't know how to get pass the fact that historic Christianity is fundamentally both Jewish and Greek at it's core. Plato is everywhere. Aristotle makes a nice appearance too. The Roman Catholic magisterium seems evocative of a Jewish Sanhedrin and I don't see much difference between invocation of the saints and ancestral worship in practice, although the latter is clearly idolatrous insofar as it gives God's glory to another, we still pray for the dead and invoke saints as our patron-ancestors-in-Faith and Mary most of all, as mom.

What am I to make of the similarities I find between Pagan, Jewish and Christian theology and practice? How do I discern whether appropriation of the first two goes too far?

Is the answer Christ Himself. Is he the standard that even the old stories pointed to?

I have this image in my head of the old gods which our ancestors use to worship symbolizing created graces in Catholicism. Of course the old gods were demons in actuality, but the thought is still there: Angelic beings descending a Jacobean ladder as it were, metaphorically, Zeus is baptized, as is Hera and Athena, ect. That is to say, no longer claiming divine status but reclaiming a lost creatureliness. I think of fairies in much the same way. Fairies were serious business once upon a time.

Thoughts?
 

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A few posts have been removed.

Please note you are in the "Traditional Theology" forum. Note the Statement of Purpose.
Definition of Traditional Christianity:

Traditional Christians hold to the traditional beliefs and customs of the early church that Jesus Christ established and believe they should be acknowledged and used in the development of the Church today. Traditional Christians believe that the Church and associated Tradition - especially from the Apostolic / early Church - guide us even today. These traditions include sources such as church councils and creeds, writings of the early Church Fathers, testimony of the Lives of the Saints, classic confessions of the faith, etc. Many traditional Christians believe that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God, commonly known as theosis or sanctification. Traditional Christians recognize a variety of sacraments and sacramental acts including, but not limited to; Baptism, Holy Communion (Eucharist), Confession and Absolution, Chrismation (confirmation) etc., and consider them to be additional means whereby God imparts His grace on those who have faith.

Example denominations include, but are not limited to, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, Anglicans, Assyrian Church of the East, etc.

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2PhiloVoid

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I don't know how to get pass the fact that historic Christianity is fundamentally both Jewish and Greek at it's core. Plato is everywhere. Aristotle makes a nice appearance too. The Roman Catholic magisterium seems evocative of a Jewish Sanhedrin and I don't see much difference between invocation of the saints and ancestral worship in practice, although the latter is clearly idolatrous insofar as it gives God's glory to another, we still pray for the dead and invoke saints as our patron-ancestors-in-Faith and Mary most of all, as mom.

What am I to make of the similarities I find between Pagan, Jewish and Christian theology and practice? How do I discern whether appropriation of the first two goes too far?

Is the answer Christ Himself. Is he the standard that even the old stories pointed to?

I have this image in my head of the old gods which our ancestors use to worship symbolizing created graces in Catholicism. Of course the old gods were demons in actuality, but the thought is still there: Angelic beings descending a Jacobean ladder as it were, metaphorically, Zeus is baptized, as is Hera and Athena, ect. That is to say, no longer claiming divine status but reclaiming a lost creatureliness. I think of fairies in much the same way. Fairies were serious business once upon a time.

Thoughts?

There are different ways to inquire into this historical observation about the degree of Greek influence that has taken place within the Church and its development of "doctrine," but I'd start out by reading something like the book, "The Gospel and The Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from pagan thought?," (1992/2003) by the late Christian philosopher, Ronald Nash.

Sure, what Nash said can all be contested, but he makes some points against any kind of wholesale influence of Grecian ideas on Christian thought.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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I'll look into this. Thanks

There are different ways to inquire into this historical observation about the degree of Greek influence that has taken place within the Church and its development of "doctrine," but I'd start out by reading something like the book, "The Gospel and The Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from pagan thought?," (1992/2003) by the late Christian philosopher, Ronald Nash.

Sure, what Nash said can all be contested, but he makes some points against any kind of wholesale influence of Grecian ideas on Christian thought.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't know how to get pass the fact that historic Christianity is fundamentally both Jewish and Greek at it's core. Plato is everywhere. Aristotle makes a nice appearance too. The Roman Catholic magisterium seems evocative of a Jewish Sanhedrin and I don't see much difference between invocation of the saints and ancestral worship in practice, although the latter is clearly idolatrous insofar as it gives God's glory to another, we still pray for the dead and invoke saints as our patron-ancestors-in-Faith and Mary most of all, as mom.

What am I to make of the similarities I find between Pagan, Jewish and Christian theology and practice? How do I discern whether appropriation of the first two goes too far?

Is the answer Christ Himself. Is he the standard that even the old stories pointed to?

I have this image in my head of the old gods which our ancestors use to worship symbolizing created graces in Catholicism. Of course the old gods were demons in actuality, but the thought is still there: Angelic beings descending a Jacobean ladder as it were, metaphorically, Zeus is baptized, as is Hera and Athena, ect. That is to say, no longer claiming divine status but reclaiming a lost creatureliness. I think of fairies in much the same way. Fairies were serious business once upon a time.

Thoughts?

I am going to attempt to usefully answer your question by addressing separately both the Jewish and Pagan aspects, starting with the latter, because it is more of a stumbling block for more people who aren’t quite fully aware of the concepts:

The early Church did use Plato, and Aristotle, and indeed Socrates, Xenophon, Euclid and Pythagoras, albeit carefully. And indeed, the work of Jewish philosophers was not hsed. A distinction can be drawn in their work between what is actual early science and math, for example, Aristotle’s studies into optics, and the well known work of Pythagoras and Euclid in mathematics and geometry, what we might call pure philosophy, for example, the Socratic Dialectic and Platonic and Aristotelian attempts at understanding forms, ideals, substances, and accidents respectively, and also related fields like metaphysics, ethnic or cultural content, which is often incompatible with Christianity, for example, the sexual morality, or lack thereof, in some Hellenic theology.

Now, some of these men, such as Pythagoras, were also known as religious leaders and mystic, like Zoroaster, who is alleged to have influenced Judaism and Christianity (I believe it is the other way around myself). Confucius is an interesting example of an Eastern philosopher who arguably, if unintentionally, fell into this category, whereas Lao Tze and the other Taoists are more clear-cut examples. The early Church was uncomfortable with this; however, in the case of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, for example, it is a fact that in their own time they were regarded as intellectuals, rathe than religious leaders, per se. And it was also recognized that to a large extent, aspects of religion and philosophy can overlap, because both are concerned with the truth. And we see religious and quasi-religious concepts in the works of more recent philosophers like Maimonides, Avicenna, Voltaire, Kant, Soren Kierkegaard, Jacques Derrida, Jean Baudrillard, and even in the toxic work of Nietschzoe and Marx. This is especially true in the case of metaphysics.

It is possible, just like the distinction between the pure science, the political views, the philosophy, and the cultural and religious areas in which philosophers work , in most cases to draw a distinction between the aspects of a philsopher’s work which are religious in nature, either based upon the religion they were born into,, such as in Confucius, Maimonides or Avicenna, or based upon novel ideas they themselves originated, such as Pythagoras, Zoroaster, the Taoists, et cetera. In some cases, what remains is not useful to Christianity, but in other cases, it was, particularly the work of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and certain Jewish philosophers like Philo and Maimonides, and the Islamic philosophers, and even Pythagoras and Euclid. For example, when they did science, this can be accepted uncritically if experimentally verified (mostly it is dated, but much of the math remains useful).

Fr. John Behr gave an interesting lecture in which he stated the early Church, in developing a Christian system of philosophy, which we see in the works of Origen, St. Athanasius, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Psuedo Dionysius the Aereopagite, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. John of Damascus, and many other early church theologians too numerous to enumerate. He likened it to the commandment in Exodus to “plunder the Egyptians,” taking much of their treasure for use in Israel. In this case, Christianity plundered Pagan philosophy, if and only if their work was useful. Thus, Neo-Platonism, which was a religious cult based on the work of Plato which sought to breath new energy into the dying ancient Greek religion, was obviously incompatible and failed to produce much of particular interest to Christianity. There was extreme caution in particular to avoid aspects which could lead to the heresy of Gnosticism: interestingly, over concerns about his work potentially having a Gnostic aspect, which were later deemed (correctly) to be unwarranted, the early church avoided Aristotle for a time in favor of Plato, only to snap the other way, particularly in the 13th and 14th century, with St. Gregory Palamas, one of the finest scholars of the Eastern Orthodox church, whose work I hold in great exteme, and the Roman Catholic Scholastic, St. Thomas Aquinas, made extensive use of Aristotle, while becoming a legitimate philosopher in his own right on a par with St. John of Damascus or Soren Kierkegaard (Aquinas also used the commentary on Aristotle produced by Averroes, an Islamic philosopher; he referred to the former as The Philosopher and the latter as the Commentator).

Now you might ask how it is we can find truths outside of Christianity, but the answer is General Revelation, and we find a specific Scriptural case of this in the Book of Acts, with St. Dionysius and others converted from the Cult of the Unknown God on the Aereopagus in Athens.

The use of accepted existing philosophy has also historically been of great value for evangelism, as we see in the aformentioned Aerepagus. Indeed, in evangelizing a society, a successful approach is one which evaluates the cultural and intellectual achievements of the society and what they got right, morally and ethically, and uses this as the platform for Christianity. We see this even in antiquity, with the distinct ideas present in Greek Christianity, Latin Christianity, the Semitic Christianity of the Syriac-speaking converts from both Judaism and the other religions of the Near East.

This of course provides an opportunity to talk about the appropriation of Jewish theological concepts. This, I would argue, is obvious and incontrovertible, in that Christianity is the continuation of the ancient Jewish faith, and Hebrew scriptures and Psalms comprise our Old Testament, for they can be seen as clear prophecy of our Lord. Indeed, the bond with Christianity and ancient Judaism and Hebrew religion is so strong that when Marcion, a shipping magnate who tried unsuccessfully to bribe his way into the Church in Rome around 90-100 AD, attempted to separate the two, he was identified as a heretic and refunded his substantial donation, which he then used to set up a rival heretical sect, which later influenced the “Positive Christianity” of the Third Reich, which was also interested in unnaturally separating the Jewish and Christian aspects of the religion, albeit in this case motivated as much by racist hatred rather than spiritural delusion alone.

So I hope that answer is helpful. If you want to dive deeper, I can also probably find on YouTube the homily Fr. John Behr delivered on this subject (he was formerly the dean at St. Vladimir’s Seminary, and how holds the position once held by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, at Oxford).
 
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Soyeong

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I don't know how to get pass the fact that historic Christianity is fundamentally both Jewish and Greek at it's core. Plato is everywhere. Aristotle makes a nice appearance too. The Roman Catholic magisterium seems evocative of a Jewish Sanhedrin and I don't see much difference between invocation of the saints and ancestral worship in practice, although the latter is clearly idolatrous insofar as it gives God's glory to another, we still pray for the dead and invoke saints as our patron-ancestors-in-Faith and Mary most of all, as mom.

What am I to make of the similarities I find between Pagan, Jewish and Christian theology and practice? How do I discern whether appropriation of the first two goes too far?

Is the answer Christ Himself. Is he the standard that even the old stories pointed to?

I have this image in my head of the old gods which our ancestors use to worship symbolizing created graces in Catholicism. Of course the old gods were demons in actuality, but the thought is still there: Angelic beings descending a Jacobean ladder as it were, metaphorically, Zeus is baptized, as is Hera and Athena, ect. That is to say, no longer claiming divine status but reclaiming a lost creatureliness. I think of fairies in much the same way. Fairies were serious business once upon a time.

Thoughts?

Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

I don't see ground for interpreting this verse as saying that The Way is a sect of a religion other than Judaism, so there should be similarities between Christianity and Judaism. After all, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, who practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. The case can certainly be made that the Bible is a polemic against pagan gods to use the culture that people were familiar with in order to teach what God is really like.
 
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The Liturgist

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Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

I don't see ground for interpreting this verse as saying that The Way is a sect of a religion other than Judaism, so there should be similarities between Christianity and Judaism. After all, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, who practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. The case can certainly be made that the Bible is a polemic against pagan gods to use the culture that people were familiar with in order to teach what God is really like.

Indeed, but as I explained in my post, the New Testament in the same Book as Acts explains how Greek philisophers, and later Arabic, philosophers, could be used by the church without appropriating Pagan religion. For example, there is nothing religious about the Pythagorean theorems on which Trigonometry is based, nor in the geometry of Euclid, nor in the work of Archimedes, nor Aristotle, who did early research into taxonomy, optics and other fields, because these are objectively true, as is Aristotelian logic. Likewise, Plato’s work was extremely helpful because it provided a means of introducing the Jewish concept of the Memra to the Greeks as the Logos, allowing the Christianization of a Hellenic concept. And most importantly, it demonstrated by consisting almost solely of dialogues the Socratic Method, which was also documented, albeit much less clearly, articulated by other followers of Socrates, such as Xenophon. And then later Latin philosophers and the Hellenic Jew Philo helped refine these concepts.

And as @2PhiloVoid pointed out, there was no wholesale uncritical osmosis of Hellenic ideas, which were generally subject to extreme scrutiny, to the point where, even for a time, Aristotle, who of the Greek philosophers is probably the least offensive to Christian thought, was set aside in the interests of doctrinal purity.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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I hope that answer is helpful. If you want to dive deeper, I can also probably find on YouTube the homily Fr. John Behr delivered on this subject (he was formerly the dean at St. Vladimir’s Seminary, and how holds the position once held by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, at Oxford).

I'll see if I can find it. If not, I'll let you know. Thanks!
 
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