Rand Paul (R-KY) introduced the “Life at Conception Act”

[cow451]

How would abortifacients be illegal? There are plenty of herbal home supplements that can act as abortifacients.

But they would have to be controlled by the government in order to protect the unborn. And all women and the fetus presenting with a miscarriage would have to be given a thorough toxicology exam.

Bottom line it's blatant pandering. If Paul gets the GOP nod in 2016, it guarantees four more years of a democrat in the White House.

 

[Adaephon]

If you had bothered to read the article I just posted (which you didn't) instead of simply the first paragraph or two, you'd realize that under your definition, you just said you aren't a person either...

Why would I bother reading a Boston Globe article on neurology? Much rather see you post real science to back up your claims. And no, I have corticothalamic neuronal connections and higher order thought processes, so I am a person, silly.

 

[GarfieldJL]

But they would have to be controlled by the government in order to protect the unborn. And all women and the fetus presenting with a miscarriage would have to be given a thorough toxicology exam.

Bottom line it's blatant pandering. If Paul gets the GOP nod in 2016, it guarantees four more years of a democrat in the White House.

Then on the flip side we have people pushing abortions to be used for eugenics.

90% of babies that have Down's Syndrome are aborted, abortion is already arguably being used to commit genocide.

What next 90% of babies on the Autistic Spectrum (Autism can be passed down from father to son (it is more rare for girls to be on the Spectrum))?

 

[Adaephon]

But they would have to be controlled by the government in order to protect the unborn. And all women and the fetus presenting with a miscarriage would have to be given a thorough toxicology exam.

True, but my point is the government is going to be even more unsuccessful regulating those things then they were with marijuana.

Bottom line it's blatant pandering. If Paul gets the GOP nod in 2016, it guarantees four more years of a democrat in the White House.

That would be entertaining.

 

[abdAlSalam]

I actually think abortion should be banned, except for health threats to the mother or the child has no brain function well into the pregnency (by no brain activity I mean no brain activity).

So you are pro-euthanasia of people who have been rendered vegetative?

Seriously the child in the womb is a human being, it is no less of a person than you are.

I disagree, to a certain point. But that disagreement is rather philosophical and doesn't have much to do with the discussion so far.

If we look at the environment the child is in:

Essentially the child has spent their entire life in a sensory deprivation chamber thus far, the idea that the child isn't a person because it isn't able to walk and talk immediately, is an unreasonable definition, because if we put you in the same scenario up until adulthood, you wouldn't be capable of walking, talking, etc. either. So would that mean you aren't a person?

The ability to walk and talk are not primary criterion for what makes some one human.

Doctors and Scientists have known for some time that our brain can reconfigure itself to compensate for some brain damage over time and other parts of the brain can take over functions of damaged parts. An infant can recover completely from minor brain damage, because of just how rapidly the brain is still developing (neural pathways).

Yup, neuroplasticity is pretty incredible.

Considering the brain and spinal cord begin to develop before anything else (even the heart), and while a heartbeat can be detected earlier than brain activity, the detection of brain activity is now about 48 days after conception (and they are detecting the activity with the mother's stomach, womb, skin, etc. interfering with detecting said brain activity.

Coordinated brain activity in a fetus would not begin until after the 23rd week of development. This is when independent neurons begin to attach to each other. While it's true that the central nervous system begins to develop in very early stages, it is not true that anything approaching cognition (i.e., brain activity) comes about until much later in the pregnancy.

Since the brain can reroute pathways and have other parts of the brain take over for damaged parts, has anyone stopped and considered the possibility that the same may be happening in the child's brain, and that people are just telling themselves the child isn't a person so they can sleep at night.

These changes don't occur in a vacuum, neuroplasticity is reliant on sensory input which gathers information and it relies on the connection and generation of millions and millions of neurons. Up until maybe the third trimester (where even most pro-choice people agree should be a cut off point), the development of the fetal brain is NOT due to neuroplasticity.

Fun Fact: Babies actually have more brain cells than you do.

Now, however, scientists have begun to dramatically revise their concept of a baby's mind. By using new research techniques and tools, they've revealed that the baby brain is abuzz with activity, capable of learning astonishing amounts of information in a relatively short time. Unlike the adult mind, which restricts itself to a narrow slice of reality, babies can take in a much wider spectrum of sensation - they are, in an important sense, more aware of the world than we are.

This hyperawareness comes with several benefits. For starters, it allows young children to figure out the world at an incredibly fast pace. Although babies are born utterly helpless, within a few years they've mastered everything from language - a toddler learns 10 new words every day - to complex motor skills such as walking. According to this new view of the baby brain, many of the mental traits that used to seem like developmental shortcomings, such as infants' inability to focus their attention, are actually crucial assets in the learning process.

In fact, in some situations it might actually be better for adults to regress into a newborn state of mind. While maturity has its perks, it can also inhibit creativity and lead people to fixate on the wrong facts. When we need to sort through a lot of seemingly irrelevant information or create something completely new, thinking like a baby is our best option.
Inside the baby mind - The Boston Globe

None of this can occur until after a child is born. Conflating a fully-developed child and a fetus is disingenuous. The two are not the same, just as an acorn is not an oak.

The fact that a child can't talk immediately after birth is because they have to learn the language first. Walking actually is more complex than you realize, so the child has to learn how to walk, the subtle shifts in balance to keep from falling flat on their face, etc.

Again, no one sane is making the argument that walking and talking are valid criterion for personhood.

 

[Skaloop]

But abortions and abortiacients would no longer be legally available. You'd have to go to another country or an illegal abortionist or get abortifacients on the black market.

There are so many of them, many natural, others drugs intended for other uses, that you'd have a heck of a whole lot of stuff to ban.

 

[GarfieldJL]

Why would I bother reading a Boston Globe article on neurology? Much rather see you post real science to back up your claims. And no, I have corticothalamic neuronal connections and higher order thought processes, so I am a person, silly.

Trying to use big words in order to intimidate me, isn't going to work...
Thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quite frankly you're talking about connections you wouldn't have if you were in a sensory deprivation chamber all your life... To be blunt if you were stuck in a sensor deprivation chamber from the womb to adulthood, unlike a newborn infant, it's unlikely you would ever be able to learn how to talk.

You are saying that because the kid wasn't exposed to sensory information, that he/she is somehow not a person...

What if someone has a stroke? Are they somehow no longer a person?

Btw, if you read the article you'd realize "higher order thought processes" are not all that impressive. Probably part of the reason why children seem inattentive is because they are hyper-aware of everything that is going on (which is why they can learn things much faster than you can (also why some people whom are diagnosed with ADHD seem to grow out of it)). The fact you've had 20 to 30 years or more to gain experience doesn't make you any more of a person than a newborn infant, whom will in a year or two learn a language, master how to walk, learn facts, information, etc. There is a reason why children are able to learn how to use computers faster than adults will.

So you are pro-euthanasia of people who have been rendered vegetative?

There have been extremely rare cases where a child is born literally missing a brain, or so much of the brain that no brain activity is detectable aside from keeping the heart beating... That's entirely different from a "vegetative state."

I disagree, to a certain point. But that disagreement is rather philosophical and doesn't have much to do with the discussion so far.

Oh it is quite relevant, once you start down this road it becomes easier and easier to justify killing human beings for simply being different.

The ability to walk and talk are not primary criterion for what makes some one human.

Some people have tried to define it as such.

Yup, neuroplasticity is pretty incredible.

Agreed

Coordinated brain activity in a fetus would not begin until after the 23rd week of development. This is when independent neurons begin to attach to each other. While it's true that the central nervous system begins to develop in very early stages, it is not true that anything approaching cognition (i.e., brain activity) comes about until much later in the pregnancy.

Do you have any siblings that were born prematurely? Sure some premies have cognitive issues, but some don't. I would submit that the coordinated brain activity you are bringing up isn't seen primarily because there is nothing to process and neurons electrical charges every which way would be counterproductive to brain development (note the brain can still handle development with the neurons firing every which way, but it's simpler to keep "traffic to a minimal."

I'm using road construction as an example of brain development. You wouldn't want to try to do road construction by keep all the lanes open on a busy highway, same with the brain. Arguably the consciousness is there, just everything is on standby till the "proverbial road crews" get finished.

These changes don't occur in a vacuum, neuroplasticity is reliant on sensory input which gathers information and it relies on the connection and generation of millions and millions of neurons. Up until maybe the third trimester (where even most pro-choice people agree should be a cut off point), the development of the fetal brain is NOT due to neuroplasticity.

The development is due to rapid cell division, which is growing exponentially.

None of this can occur until after a child is born. Conflating a fully-developed child and a fetus is disingenuous. The two are not the same, just as an acorn is not an oak.

Again, have you had a sibling that was a premie?

Again, no one sane is making the argument that walking and talking are valid criterion for personhood.

Unfortunately there are actually politicians that arguably aren't sane.

 

[Adaephon]

Trying to use big words in order to intimidate me, isn't going to work...
Thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not trying to intimidate you. If you find such simple terminology intimidating, you're probably over your head.

Quite frankly you're talking about connections you wouldn't have if you were in a sensory deprivation chamber all your life...

Except they do. They form late 2nd trimester to early 3rd.

Thalamic afferents to the cortex develop from approximately 12-16 wk of gestation, reach the cortical subplate, but “wait” until they grow into the cortical plate (16). At this stage, only long depolarization of the deep layers may reach the cortex (17) (Fig. 2). After 24 wk, thalamocortical axons grow into the somatosensory, auditory, visual, and frontal cortices and the pathways mediating pain perception become functional around the 29-30 wk (18). From approximately 34 wk, a synchrony of the EEG rhythm of the two hemispheres becomes detectable at the same time as long-range callosal connections, and thus the GNW circuits, are established (18–20). From the 26th wk, pyramidal neurons in the primary visual cortex of humans develop dendritic spines (19). At birth, the dendritic spines have not reached the adult density, but suffice for the detection of visually evoked potentials. The connectivity of the cerebral cortex particularly in the prefrontal area, mature later than the subcortical structures. However, the fusiform area for face recognition (21) and the left-hemispheric temporal lobe cortices for processing speech stimuli (22) function already in the newborn. Moreover, the main fascicles of myelinated long-range connections such as the corpus callosum, cerebellar peduncles, corticospinal tract, spinothalamic tract are unambiguously identified at the age of 1-4 mo (23). In short, the vertical brain stem, diencephalic, and thalamocortical pathways, which regulate the states of consciousness, become established before their connection with the horizontal GNW cortical circuits yielding, in the newborn, plausibly functional, though still immature, neural dispositions for access to a conscious content.


Comparison between the maturation of thalamocortical-cortical connections and somatosensory evoked potentials (SEP). In the early preterm infant (<24-25 gestational weeks), thalamic axons establish a dense synaptic network in the subplate. After approximately 25 gestational weeks thalamic fibers make synapses in the deep cortical layers. In the full-term infants, the thalamic fibers have reached their final destination in layer IV of the cortex. This is reflected by the SEP responses. In the early preterms, the evoked responses consist only of long depolarizations of the deep layers. A delayed cortical activation can be seen. When the thalamic-cortical fibers extend to the cortex, faster cortical responses are seen, paralleling the accumulation of synapses in layer IV. Reprinted from Vanhatalo et al., Semin Fetal Neonatal Med 11:464-470, Copyright © 2006 Elsevier Ltd., with permission.

Pediatric Research - The Emergence of Human Consciousness: From Fetal to Neonatal Life

To be blunt if you were stuck in a sensor deprivation chamber from the womb to adulthood, unlike a newborn infant, it's unlikely you would ever be able to learn how to talk.

I'm talking about the formation of neuronal connections between the thalamus and the frontal cortex in utero. This has nothing to do with sensory deprivation, or being able to speak

You are saying that because the kid wasn't exposed to sensory information, that he/she is somehow not a person...

No, you're the one rambling about sensory deprivation; not really sure why.

What if someone has a stroke? Are they somehow no longer a person?

Do you even know what a stroke is?

Btw, if you read the article you'd realize "higher order thought processes" are not all that impressive. Probably part of the reason why children seem inattentive is because they are hyper-aware of everything that is going on (which is why they can learn things much faster than you can (also why some people whom are diagnosed with ADHD seem to grow out of it)).

I'd be interested in seeing your evidence.

The fact you've had 20 to 30 years or more to gain experience doesn't make you any more of a person than a newborn infant,

Except, potentially, for the fact that I am self-aware and they may not be.

whom will in a year or two learn a language, master how to walk, learn facts, information, etc. There is a reason why children are able to learn how to use computers faster than adults will.

Yes, and it has nothing to do with what I've been saying.

 

[Grizzly]

Did we investigate miscarriages before abortion became legal? Nope. No reason that we have to if this new law passes

Do we not need to investigate the deaths of individuals in America?

 

[GarfieldJL]

I'm not trying to intimidate you. If you find such simple terminology intimidating, you're probably over your head.

I was pointing out you are trying to throw terminology around to try to intimidate people from disagreeing with you, it's a common debate tactic...

Considering I'm more of an engineer and not a medical doctor, medical terminology wouldn't be in my area of expertise. That said if I don't know what something means, I'll look it up.

Except they do. They form late 2nd trimester to early 3rd.

Okay then you would have had them and lost them (it's called brain atrophy).

Pediatric Research - The Emergence of Human Consciousness: From Fetal to Neonatal Life

Except all they're doing is guessing when consciousness emerges... Brain scans of a child while they are in the womb is problematic since the scanning equipment isn't in physical contact with the head, and I don't recall instances of using MRI's to measure brain activity of a child in the womb.

I'm talking about the formation of neuronal connections between the thalamus and the frontal cortex in utero. This has nothing to do with sensory deprivation, or being able to speak

Considering how the brain reroutes stuff, the child could be conscious and over time their consciousness is expanding. I would also point out that that kind of rapid cell growth drains an incredible amount of energy...

No, you're the one rambling about sensory deprivation; not really sure why.

Pointing out that you wouldn't be able to learn how to do much of anything, but a newborn can. Much of what goes on as we grow up involves pruning brain cells...

Do you even know what a stroke is?

Usually involves a clot blocking bloodflow to parts of the brain, can cause permanent brain damage.

I'd be interested in seeing your evidence.

Part of it is from the article I posted, part of it is from my own observations (since I'm on the Autistic Spectrum and have ADHD). I'm hyper-sensitive to certain sounds particularly on specific frequencies.

Except, potentially, for the fact that I am self-aware and they may not be.

Prove it. Seriously, how do you go about proving that you are any more self-aware than they are?

This isn't simply a scientific issue, this is a moral and philosophical issue. When does someone have a soul? I can't answer that question, neither can you, and any scientist that says they can determine if someone has a soul is nuts.

Yes, and it has nothing to do with what I've been saying.

Doesn't it? Remember there are premies out there that developed normally afterward...

Saying that infants in the womb are somehow subhuman, opens the door to people whom have Down's Syndrome being classified as somehow being less than human. Odds are same will happen to people like me, simply cause we have a different cognitive style.

Where does it end Adaephon? The line has to be drawn, it has to be clear cut and not able to be shifted all over the place.

 

[Boondock_Saint]

People get so upset about strict abortion laws. All Republicans want to do is stop people from getting abortions just because they can.

 

[jayem]

Rand admitted in a CNN interview with Wolf Blitzer that the law was introduced in order to start a philosophic discussion on when human life begins. (As if this hasn't been discussed ad nauseam for the last 40 years. ) He doesn't expect this to become law. I hope he knows that the issue isn't when life begins, it's how personhood is defined. And that short of a Constitutional amendment, an act of Congress defining life, or personhood can't override a SCOTUS ruling.

He also admits that even if life is defined as beginning at conception, there will still be "thousands of exceptions" where abortion will be permitted. If he was trying to prove his social conservative creds with this bill, he may be backtracking a bit.

The article has 4 min. video clip. Listen for yourselves.

CNN Asked Rand Paul About Abortion Exceptions: This Is How He Answered | Video | TheBlaze.com

 

[cow451]

Then on the flip side we have people pushing abortions to be used for eugenics.

90% of babies that have Down's Syndrome are aborted, abortion is already arguably being used to commit genocide.

What next 90% of babies on the Autistic Spectrum (Autism can be passed down from father to son (it is more rare for girls to be on the Spectrum))?

These things are an inevitable outcome of advances in science. Technological advances always come with positives and negatives. With genetic testing in the future, many of these delimmas will exist. I am not aware of one for autism.

On the flip side, preemies survive at a tremendously higher rate than 60 years ago.

 

[abdAlSalam]

There have been extremely rare cases where a child is born literally missing a brain, or so much of the brain that no brain activity is detectable aside from keeping the heart beating... That's entirely different from a "vegetative state."

Your criteria for no brain activity is what then? People in vegitative states have no brain functioning. Their senses do not receive stimuli, their minds are not active, and they may even need a breathing tube because their brain stem is not functioning. The only thing truely separating someone in such a state from a cadaver is cell division and metabolism.

Oh it is quite relevant, once you start down this road it becomes easier and easier to justify killing human beings for simply being different.

I personally have two main things I check for before birth, which can be a bit contradictory, but these are:
1. Fetal development of the brain past 24 weeks of gestation. At this point higher level functioning in the brain is achievable.
2. Viability outside the womb. Until a fetus is able to function without directly absorbing oxygen/nutrients from the mothers own bloodstream, it is not viable.

Do you have any siblings that were born prematurely? Sure some premies have cognitive issues, but some don't. I would submit that the coordinated brain activity you are bringing up isn't seen primarily because there is nothing to process and neurons electrical charges every which way would be counterproductive to brain development (note the brain can still handle development with the neurons firing every which way, but it's simpler to keep "traffic to a minimal."

Two things, yes I have a very close family member who was born pre-mature and had to stay in the hospital for quite a long time in an incubation chamber. She developed well after she was born, and today she is quite a successful person working as a social worker. Although she is technically a cousin, we were raised very closely and I feel like she is more of a sister than a cousin.

Secondly, you dont seem to understand how neuroplasticity actually works. I dont really blame you, since there hasnt been a whole lot of study in this area and the mechanism is, at this time, not completely clear. Increased neuroplasticity in a newborn is due to two factors: one, its neuronal pathways have not, for lack of a better term, been cluttered. They absorb new information and explore their environment, which creates connections through sensory inputs. Children up to the age of 4 have no real memories because their brains are putting together the patterns of their senses. In addition, things like object permanence do not occur until the children become toddlers. Two, a lot of this has less to do with their already-present neurons making new connections (triggered again by experience) than the fact that, even after birth, babies generate NEW neurons (this is more or less impossible in adults).

Your submission is flawed because, before 22-24 weeks, the neurons in a fetus brain are not conneted to anything. This process is gradual and begins at about 22 weeks. Before then, the neurons have no real connection to each other. Thus even if there was some sort of stimuli, the brain could do nothing with it because the brain has not, in a true sense, been formed.

I'm using road construction as an example of brain development. You wouldn't want to try to do road construction by keep all the lanes open on a busy highway, same with the brain. Arguably the consciousness is there, just everything is on standby till the "proverbial road crews" get finished.

From a neurological perspective this is not a very good analogy. This smacks greatly of Dualism, which has been more or less been abandoned by series scientists.

Unfortunately there are actually politicians that arguably aren't sane.

Too true, like advocating for a return to the Gold Standard. Or claiming that personhood begins at conception.

 

[Skaloop]

People get so upset about strict abortion laws. All Republicans want to do is stop people from getting abortions just because they can.

Why are their reasons for getting an abortion any of your business?

 

[GarfieldJL]

These things are an inevitable outcome of advances in science. Technological advances always come with positives and negatives. With genetic testing in the future, many of these delimmas will exist. I am not aware of one for autism.

That's cause they can't nail down how to detect whether or not a child will have Autism yet...

cow451, we're looking at legalized genocide here...

On the flip side, preemies survive at a tremendously higher rate than 60 years ago.

Preemies also end up with less and less cognitive impairments than they had 60 years ago...

 

[DaisyDay]

Women shouldn't be forced to allow anyone to feast on her blood and bones.

 

[GarfieldJL]

Women shouldn't be forced to allow anyone to feast on her blood and bones.

People shouldn't be allowed to kill someone simply because they are different...

 

[Dave Ellis]

People shouldn't be allowed to kill someone simply because they are different...

They aren't killing them, they are removing them from their bodies. The fact the fetus can't survive on it's own is the fetuses problem.

Likewise, if you can't survive on your own with kidney failure, nobody should be forced into relinquishing their personal sovereignty over their own body, and be forced into donating a kidney, or some other kind of tissue, or blood to keep you alive.

There is no legal requirement to use your own body to sustain the life of anyone else, of any age, whether they have been born or not.

 

[GarfieldJL]

They aren't killing them, they are removing them from their bodies. The fact the fetus can't survive on it's own is the fetuses problem.

Likewise, if you can't survive on your own with kidney failure, nobody should be forced into relinquishing their personal sovereignty over their own body, and be forced into donating a kidney, or some other kind of tissue, or blood to keep you alive.

There is no legal requirement to use your own body to sustain the life of anyone else, of any age, whether they have been born or not.

The child didn't ask to be in the woman's womb either, this isn't anything the child chose to do...

Thanks for proving my point that abortion is nothing more than legalized murdering someone that is considered inconveinent.