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Rand Paul (R-KY) introduced the “Life at Conception Act”

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Adaephon

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No more so than under current laws

Are you even thinking? Without increased investigations of miscarriage, this law isn't worth the paper it's written on. Everyone will still get the abortions they want, and will never be charged with murder because they'll just claim it was a natural miscarriage and there won't be any verification.

That said, I do appreciate that not even you consider a fetus to be an actual person.
 
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Skaloop

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Did we investigate miscarriages before abortion became legal? Nope. No reason that we have to if this new law passes

No, but before abortion was legal, it wasn't because a fetus was considered to be "entitled to legal protection" from the point of conception. But that's what Ryan wants. And if a fetus is "entitled to legal protection" then any death of a fetus must be investigated. So have fun putting women who have suffered the loss of a wanted pregnancy through a criminal investigation.
 
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abdAlSalam

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Did we investigate miscarriages before abortion became legal? Nope. No reason that we have to if this new law passes

Forensic techniques have been greatly improved since before abortion was legal, as has our understanding of the biology behind pregnancy. Before abortion was legalized, we didn't grant legal rights to fetuses either.
 
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MachZer0

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Are you even thinking? Without increased investigations of miscarriage, this law isn't worth the paper it's written on. Everyone will still get the abortions they want, and will never be charged with murder because they'll just claim it was a natural miscarriage and there won't be any verification.
That will be difficult

That said, I do appreciate that not even you consider a fetus to be an actual person.
Don't know how you reached that misunderstanding
 
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MachZer0

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Forensic techniques have been greatly improved since before abortion was legal, as has our understanding of the biology behind pregnancy. Before abortion was legalized, we didn't grant legal rights to fetuses either.

Forensic techniques don't mandate laws
 
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Skaloop

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Forensic techniques don't mandate laws

I don't know why you included my post in your reply. I was asking why an investigation wouldn't be required any more than it is now. That question has nothing to do with forensics.
 
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MachZer0

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I don't know why you included my post in your reply. I was asking why an investigation wouldn't be required any more than it is now. That question has nothing to do with forensics.
The real question is why would they?
 
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Adaephon

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That will be difficult

No, it's quite easy. They go to planned parenthood, get whatever kind of abortion they want. And then they go to the hospital and lie, claiming they had a miscarriage at home.

Don't know how you reached that misunderstanding

The fact that you don't think fetuses deserve a basic cause of death investigation of the type I'd receive if I just dropped dead an hour from now.
 
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abdAlSalam

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The real question is why would they?

Because a possible murder has taken place, if this law comes to pass. If a woman just happens to lose her pregnancy and it becomes known, then there is a possibility that she committed a grave crime. When people are found lying in their apartments dead with a gun on the floor, we don't just throw our hands up in the air and declare it suicide, we take forensic evidence from the scene to make sure it wasn't murder.
 
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cow451

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Future President and CPAC straw poll winner Rand Paul (R-KY)

Joining the ranks of past CPAC Straw Poll winners.....Presidents Allen, Romney, Forbes, Giuliani, Bauer, Kemp, Ron Paul........:cool:
 
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Skaloop

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The real question is why would they?

Because a fetus would be "entitled to legal protection" just like any other person. And when a person dies, the cause of death is investigated.

In addition to investigating pretty much every miscarriage, you'd also need to investigate every time a child is born with a defect that is known to be caused in utero. And you'd have to jail every woman who has a child with FAS. A pregnant woman caught smoking would face criminal charges.
 
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Skaloop

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No, it's quite easy. They go to planned parenthood, get whatever kind of abortion they want. And then they go to the hospital and lie, claiming they had a miscarriage at home.

Even PP wouldn't be necessary. There are all kinds of readily available abortifacients that will do the job.
 
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Adaephon

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Even PP wouldn't be necessary. There are all kinds of readily available abortifacients that will do the job.

Yeah, basically, without investigation, all this bill would do would be bloat government bureaucracy, give women an additional dependent tax deduction, and give the prolife crowd a ridiculously hollow victory to crow about.
 
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GarfieldJL

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Forensic techniques have been greatly improved since before abortion was legal, as has our understanding of the biology behind pregnancy. Before abortion was legalized, we didn't grant legal rights to fetuses either.

I actually think abortion should be banned, except for health threats to the mother or the child has no brain function well into the pregnency (by no brain activity I mean no brain activity).

Seriously the child in the womb is a human being, it is no less of a person than you are.

If we look at the environment the child is in:
  • Near constant temperature
  • Any smells or tastes would be a constant
  • Any sounds that the child will hear is muffled
  • It is a pitch black environment
  • Relatively limited space to move
Essentially the child has spent their entire life in a sensory deprivation chamber thus far, the idea that the child isn't a person because it isn't able to walk and talk immediately, is an unreasonable definition, because if we put you in the same scenario up until adulthood, you wouldn't be capable of walking, talking, etc. either. So would that mean you aren't a person?

Doctors and Scientists have known for some time that our brain can reconfigure itself to compensate for some brain damage over time and other parts of the brain can take over functions of damaged parts. An infant can recover completely from minor brain damage, because of just how rapidly the brain is still developing (neural pathways).

Considering the brain and spinal cord begin to develop before anything else (even the heart), and while a heartbeat can be detected earlier than brain activity, the detection of brain activity is now about 48 days after conception (and they are detecting the activity with the mother's stomach, womb, skin, etc. interfering with detecting said brain activity.

Since the brain can reroute pathways and have other parts of the brain take over for damaged parts, has anyone stopped and considered the possibility that the same may be happening in the child's brain, and that people are just telling themselves the child isn't a person so they can sleep at night.

Fun Fact: Babies actually have more brain cells than you do.

Now, however, scientists have begun to dramatically revise their concept of a baby's mind. By using new research techniques and tools, they've revealed that the baby brain is abuzz with activity, capable of learning astonishing amounts of information in a relatively short time. Unlike the adult mind, which restricts itself to a narrow slice of reality, babies can take in a much wider spectrum of sensation - they are, in an important sense, more aware of the world than we are.

This hyperawareness comes with several benefits. For starters, it allows young children to figure out the world at an incredibly fast pace. Although babies are born utterly helpless, within a few years they've mastered everything from language - a toddler learns 10 new words every day - to complex motor skills such as walking. According to this new view of the baby brain, many of the mental traits that used to seem like developmental shortcomings, such as infants' inability to focus their attention, are actually crucial assets in the learning process.

In fact, in some situations it might actually be better for adults to regress into a newborn state of mind. While maturity has its perks, it can also inhibit creativity and lead people to fixate on the wrong facts. When we need to sort through a lot of seemingly irrelevant information or create something completely new, thinking like a baby is our best option.

Inside the baby mind - The Boston Globe

The fact that a child can't talk immediately after birth is because they have to learn the language first. Walking actually is more complex than you realize, so the child has to learn how to walk, the subtle shifts in balance to keep from falling flat on their face, etc.
 
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cow451

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Even PP wouldn't be necessary. There are all kinds of readily available abortifacients that will do the job.


But abortions and abortiacients would no longer be legally available. You'd have to go to another country or an illegal abortionist or get abortifacients on the black market.
 
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Adaephon

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I actually think abortion should be banned, except for health threats to the mother or the child has no brain function well into the pregnency (by no brain activity I mean no brain activity).

Seriously the child in the womb is a human being, it is no less of a person than you are.

If we look at the environment the child is in:

[*]Near constant temperature
[*]Any smells or tastes would be a constant
[*]Any sounds that the child will hear is muffled
[*]It is a pitch black environment
[*]Relatively limited space to move
Essentially the child has spent their entire life in a sensory deprivation chamber thus far, the idea that the child isn't a person because it isn't able to walk and talk immediately, is an unreasonable definition, because if we put you in the same scenario up until adulthood, you wouldn't be capable of walking, talking, etc. either. So would that mean you aren't a person?

Doctors and Scientists have known for some time that our brain can reconfigure itself to compensate for some brain damage over time and other parts of the brain can take over functions of damaged parts. An infant can recover completely from minor brain damage, because of just how rapidly the brain is still developing (neural pathways).

Considering the brain and spinal cord begin to develop before anything else (even the heart), and while a heartbeat can be detected earlier than brain activity, the detection of brain activity is now about 48 days after conception (and they are detecting the activity with the mother's stomach, womb, skin, etc. interfering with detecting said brain activity.

Since the brain can reroute pathways and have other parts of the brain take over for damaged parts, has anyone stopped and considered the possibility that the same may be happening in the child's brain, and that people are just telling themselves the child isn't a person so they can sleep at night.

Fun Fact: Babies actually have more brain cells than you do.

Now, however, scientists have begun to dramatically revise their concept of a baby's mind. By using new research techniques and tools, they've revealed that the baby brain is abuzz with activity, capable of learning astonishing amounts of information in a relatively short time. Unlike the adult mind, which restricts itself to a narrow slice of reality, babies can take in a much wider spectrum of sensation - they are, in an important sense, more aware of the world than we are.

This hyperawareness comes with several benefits. For starters, it allows young children to figure out the world at an incredibly fast pace. Although babies are born utterly helpless, within a few years they've mastered everything from language - a toddler learns 10 new words every day - to complex motor skills such as walking. According to this new view of the baby brain, many of the mental traits that used to seem like developmental shortcomings, such as infants' inability to focus their attention, are actually crucial assets in the learning process.

In fact, in some situations it might actually be better for adults to regress into a newborn state of mind. While maturity has its perks, it can also inhibit creativity and lead people to fixate on the wrong facts. When we need to sort through a lot of seemingly irrelevant information or create something completely new, thinking like a baby is our best option.
Inside the baby mind - The Boston Globe

The fact that a child can't talk immediately after birth is because they have to learn the language first. Walking actually is more complex than you realize, so the child has to learn how to walk, the subtle shifts in balance to keep from falling flat on their face, etc.

Fetuses are not people. They have no higher brain function, or even the anatomical capacity for thought until the third trimester when corticothalamic connections are formed. Without such connections, there is no neurological basis for consciousness.
 
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GarfieldJL

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Fetuses are not people. They have no higher brain function, or even the anatomical capacity for thought until the third trimester when corticothalamic connections are formed. Without such connections, there is no neurological basis for consciousness.

If you had bothered to read the article I just posted (which you didn't) instead of simply the first paragraph or two, you'd realize that under your definition, you just said you aren't a person either...
 
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