Ramadan and Lent

[Muslim-UK]

as salamu alaikum to all.

All Prophets practised Fasting. How many days did Jesus pbuh fast and are Christians instructed to follow suit? If so what conditions if any need to be met? What does the fast entail?

O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous. Qur'an 2:183

As you all likely know, it is the Muslim Month of Ramadan where all Muslims must abstain from food, drink and sexual relations during the day light hours. Here in the U.K. that is between 3:00 am and 9:00 p.m and is adjusted accordingly on a daily basis.

The following video illustrates the purpose:

People have asked me; 'isn't it dangerous for the body to be without water for a whole day?'

The Qur'an explains;
[Fasting for] a limited number of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey [during them] - then an equal number of days [are to be made up]. And upon those who are able [to fast, but with hardship] - a ransom [as substitute] of feeding a poor person [each day]. And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew. Qur'an 2:184

The body is actually designed to go without food and water for short periods of time. The process actually helps the body to heal:

And for the brain:

Another benefit of this blessed Month; not only was the Qur'an revealed in this Month,

We sent it (this Qur'an) down on a blessed Night. Verily, We are ever warning (mankind of Our Torment). Therein (that Night) is decreed every matter of ordainment. Amran (i.e. a command or this Qur'an or His Decree of every matter) from Us. Verily, We are ever sending (the Messenger). (As) a Mercy from your Lord. Verily! He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower." Qur'an 44: 3-6

The major Devils are chained and locked up during Ramadan. This means after a day the body is easily able to adjust to the new regime.

For non Muslims this is a good Month to attempt to give up smoking, drinking excessively or whatever your weakness maybe.

This is the Month when the gates to Hell are closed and the doors to Paradise opened:

Abu Huraira narrated that Allah's Messenger, salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam, said : "When the month of Ramadan starts, the gates of the heaven are opened and the gates of Hell are closed and the devils are chained." [Bukhari]

The exact day the Qur'an started to be revealed is not known, so during the last 10 nights Muslims stay up remembering their Lord in prayers and supplications, hoping to get the reward promised:

"Indeed We have revealed it (Qur'an) in the night of Power. And what will explain to you what the night of Power is? The night of Power is better than a thousand months. Therein descends the Angels and the Spirit (Jibreel) by Allah's permission, on every errand: (they say) "Peace" (continuously) till the rise of Morning!" Qur'an 97:1-5

The whole of the Qur'an is recited from start to finish over the Month in all the local Mosques, a tradition which started with the Prophet pbuh, (peace be upon him).

The Final Prophet pbuh emphasised the importance of fasting in many Hadiths, below are 3 short ones:

The Messenger of Allah (saw) addressed his companions on the last day of Sha`ban, saying, "Oh people! A great month has come over you; a blessed month; a month in which is a night better than a thousand months; month in which Allah has made it compulsory upon you to fast by day, and voluntary to pray by night. Whoever draws nearer (to Allah) by performing any of the (optional) good deeds in (this month) shall receive the same reward as performing an obligatory deed at any other time, and whoever discharges an obligatory deed in (this month) shall receive the reward of performing seventy obligations at any other time. It is the month of patience, and the reward of patience is Heaven. It is the month of charity, and a month in which a believer's sustenance is increased. Whoever gives food to a fasting person to break his fast, shall have his sins forgiven, and he will be saved from the Fire of Hell, and he shall have the same reward as the fasting person, without his reward being diminished at all." Narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah

Abu Said al-Khudri reported that the Messenger of Allah (saw), said: "No servant fasts on a day in the path of Allah except that Allah removes the hellfire seventy years further away from his face." This is related by "the group," except for Imam Abu Dawud.

`Abdullah ibn `Amr reported that the Messenger of Allah (saw), said: "The fast and the Qur'an are two intercessors for the servant of Allah on the Day of Resurrection. The fast will say: 'O Lord, I prevented him from his food and desires during the day. Let me intercede for him.' The Qur'an will say: 'I prevented him from sleeping at night. Let me intercede for him.' And their intercession will be accepted." Imam Ahmad

I'd be interested to know what others think about fasting. Would you consider trying it to benefit your body and mind?

 

[RaymondG]

I think fading can have good spiritual benefits......I would have to do full 24 hour periods, however, as not eating in daylight is too easy for my body to handle.

 

[LaSorcia]

Jesus fasted for 40 days. Christians are encouraged to fast, and usually do it in the period leading up to Easter/Resurrection Sunday. This is approximately a 40 day period. Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians are more likely to follow this fast than Protestant Christians, generally speaking.

Christians might also fast when they make a special dua.

Fasting is a powerful spiritual practice that has sadly fallen into neglect in a lot of churches nowadays.

Wasalaam

 

[cloudyday2]

Eastern Orthodox fast over half the year (as I learned to my dismay), but the fasting is optional and complicated. For example, certain days dairy is prohibited. In my church the priest tried to discourage people from fasting too zealously because of the medical risks. I remember seeing somebody pass out in church due to low blood sugar or something during Lent (actually a couple of times I believe).

I hated fasting while I was Orthodox, because it just made me grouchy. It was really hard to fast just enough but not too much. I think it takes a lot of personal experimentation to find what works for you.

My understanding of Ramadan from talking to a Muslim friend is that you don't eat until evening at which time you have a feast where neighbors and especially poor people are invited to join. He said it is basically one big party every night. Lent seems to be more about being miserable for seven weeks LOL

EDIT: I think fasting is very beneficial if people tune it properly to themselves. I'm sure Lent can be a wonderful thing when done correctly. Also some people do other things besides fasting during Lent such as extra prayers at home, stations of the cross, or whatever.

 

[dzheremi]

Wa barakatuhu 'alaykum,

The Coptic Orthodox tradition embraces fasting for over 210 days of the year, not just during Lent. It is the most thorough Christian fasting tradition in the world today, with the exception of that of the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Christians, who apparently have a few additional days that we do not have (which is interesting, since these are known as the daughters of the Coptic Orthodox Church, having received their first bishop from our father HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, the twentieth Pope of Alexandria, following the conversion of the Axumite king Ezana to Christianity c. 330 AD). The fasts are:

- Great Lent, which consists of 7 weeks, corresponding to the 40 days that Jesus Christ fasted for us when He went into the desert. We also add a preparatory week before the 'official' start of the Great Fast.
- The Nativity Fast, which is the 40 days preceding the Nativity of Christ ('Christmas'). In the Western Christian churches, this is called 'Advent', though we don't call it that. Additional time is added to this period in the Coptic, Ethiopian and Eritrean, and Syriac traditions (which are fellow Oriental/non-Chalcedonian Orthodox churches) to mark the miracle of Simon the Tanner in the 10th century, when the mountain of Mokattam was moved by prayer after the Patriarch of that time, HH Pope Abraam, was threatened by the caliph that if he could not move the mountain with prayer, the caliph would have all of the Christians in Egypt slaughtered. The caliph had heard from one of his advisors that the Christians have in their holy book a verse that says if you have even a small amount of faith, you can move mountains (Matthew 17:20, Luke 17:6), so he wanted to test this. The mountain was moved after it was revealed by God to HH Pope Abraam that this man Simon would be the one to do so, after three days of prayer and fasting, and so we have marked this miracle ever since by remembering the prayer and fasting that preceded it by adding that time to our Nativity fast.
- The Fast of Nineveh, called in the Coptic tradition "Jonah's Fast", commemorating the three days that the people of Nineveh fasted in repentance after the prophet Jonah called upon them to repent. This fast was incorporated into the Coptic Orthodox Church from our brothers the Syriac Orthodox in the 10th century under HH Pope Abraam (one of the 'Coptic' popes who was actually not a Copt, but an ethnic Syriac person).
- Holy Week, which is the week preceding Easter (called Pascha in the Coptic church, from the Greek). This is also the time of many, many, many incredibly long church services, some as long as 8-10 hours or more. The Coptic Orthodox Church counts the day as being from evening to evening, not sunrise to sunrise, so it's possible to have these services that start in the evening and then go on into the next 'day' by a considerable amount, like Bright Saturday/Apocalypse/Abu Ghalimses, during which the entire book of Revelation/Apocalypse is read aloud; or during Good Friday, when the 400 Kyrie eleisons are chanted, and the ceremonial burial of Christ takes place.
- The Apostles' Fast, which is variable in length and can last up to 49 days. It begins on the Monday following the Sunday of Pentecost and extends to the feast day of St. Peter and Paul on July 12 (Abib 5, according to the Coptic calendar, which is the Church's official calendar). We are in this period right now and will be in it until July 11.
- St. Mary's Fast (fast of the Dormition of the Theotokos), which is from August 7-21
- The Wednesday and Friday fasts, in commemoration of the Lord's betrayal by Judas Iscariot and His crucifixion (respectively). These are fasted every week of the year, with the exception of those which would fall during the Holy Fifties, the fifty-day period between Pascha and Pentecost during which no fasting is permitted (this is the only period of time during the liturgical year in which the Church does not fast at all).

I suppose the Paramon fasts (the days before the feasts of the Nativity and the Theophany) should also be mentioned, since these are also fasts, but they are not listed among the above (e.g., you won't find them on printed or electronic church calendars, as here), since the way that they are fasted varies depending on when they fall during the week. In practice in my experience, they are just sort of tacked on to the fasts that they follow, though they are meant to prepare the worshiper for the feast (I guess so that people do not become lazy and say "Ah, the Nativity is tomorrow, so it's okay if we stop fasting earlier!" -- NO, it is not okay!).

The Coptic Orthodox Christian is to fast before the reception of communion, as well. The rule that I was told from my priest was that the fast is to be 9 hours minimum, or from midnight, whichever is longer. Since the standard Coptic liturgy (St. Basil) as we did it at my old parish tended to run from about 8 am to just before noon (beginning with the raising of the incense, which is not technically part of the liturgy but is not in any sense considered optional), in practice this means no eating or drinking from evening of the day before (or the beginning of the 'Coptic day', as per the above) until you receive the orban (what the other Christian traditions call antidoron; blessed bread that is not consecrated) after the close of the liturgy. This is probably why the orban is always the best-tasting thing you can imagine!

The general rule for fasting at all times is one small meal of only vegan materials (no meat or dairy), to be eaten in the evening, after the conclusion of the Vespers/Sunset/retiring hour of prayer from the Agpeya, as this is the conclusion of the 'day' in a liturgical sense, as I've already discussed. Exceptions are made of course for children, elderly, infirm, etc., including allowing otherwise disallowed foods (types of sea creatures; I don't pay attention to this, since I don't like sea food, so I can't tell you any specifics) for the meal, so that these people can have some sense of fasting together with the Church, as the Copts really do take their fasting very seriously, so it is better that you do a modified fast than no fast at all. In practice in my own life, when I was still around a lot of Egyptians this meant a lot of visits to their houses to eat a small bowl of ful with a little piece of bread (either the Egyptian flatbread, or sometimes even bolillo rolls, since we were in New Mexico). Sometimes they also included slices of cucumber or tomato. One thing that distinguishes the Coptic Orthodox from the other churches claiming Orthodoxy (the Eastern Orthodox communion) in this regard is that the Coptic Orthodox Church allows plant-based oils to be used in the preparation of fasting dishes, so long as they are not overly indulged in (e.g. put them in the ful in a small amount to make sure that it is not too dry to eat, but don't put out a big cup to dunk they bread into; that's just excessive and not in keeping with the fast).

I was blessed to experience St. Mary's fast in a Coptic monastery a few years ago, so I know that the rules for monastics are even more strict than these. There are also rules governing abstinence during all these periods, but these do not affect me right now since I am unmarried, so I do not know what they are.

We too have our purpose for doing these things, which I will explain with a video just as you have. This is a 'fraction prayer' (the prayer prayed by the priest during the preparation of the Eucharistic bread), one of many, which is prayed in liturgies said during the Great Fast, so it explains why we fast (in Arabic with English subtitles, prayed by Fr. Bola Malek):

 

[cloudyday2]

For anybody who is interested, I stumbled on this very interesting article about the origins of Lent. Apparently scholars are rethinking their original theories.
http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/193181.pdf

 

[cloudyday2]

I was reading about the Islamic calendar. My understanding is that some years have 13 months and some years have 12 months. Is it ever the case that Ramadan is observed at different times in different Islamic nations? There is the Sunni and Shiite schism. Is there a central authority to manage these calendar issues? Or is there a table created during a past Caliphate that modern Islamic nations use to keep the lunar calendar somewhat synchronized to seasons?

 

[cloudyday2]

I've been wondering why Islam has a lunar calendar instead of a lunisolar calendar or a solar calendar. Calendars helped people know when to plant so that the probability of a successful harvest would be maximized. A lunar calendar does not serve this purpose. Apparently lunar calendar resynchronizes to the solar calendar every 33 years (or so - I can't find the link where I read that). I gather that the months in the Islamic calendar are allowed to move freely into different seasons throughout this 33 year cycle. Why when Islam is one of the youngest religions did they select such a primitive calendar?

My theory is that the lunar calendar reinforces dependency on central authorities who have the astronomical knowledge to calculate the proper time for planting and harvesting absent an informative calendar. Another factor might be that lunisolar calendars seemed to have used the appearance of constellations in combination with the moon to resynchronize the months. Maybe this method would lead to differing calendars in different longitudes, and the Islamic Empire spanned most of Eurasia. (BTW, the Arabs originally had a more sophisticated lunisolar calendar, but they switched to the less sophisticated lunar calendar with Islam. In other words, it was a deliberate choice - not a lack of astronomical knowledge in the culture.)

EDIT: I think what I proposed about longitudes and constellations probably is wrong. I don't know much about astronomy

 

[ViaCrucis]

The period known as Lent recalls Jesus' own fasting in the wilderness for forty days, the purpose of this period of fasting is to engage in meaningful self-reflection and a penitential state of mind which ultimately prepares us for the celebration of the Paschal Feast (commonly called Easter in English), which is the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Though fasting, in general, in Christianity serves the purpose of self-discipline for the purpose of curbing the appetites. The purpose of fasting isn't to cause harm to the body (the body is good, and so is not to be punished through self-harm) but to train ourselves to not allow our appetites rule over us, because the unrestrained appetites are the wellspring of sin; the corruption or twisting of our appetites toward selfish ends has been called concupiscence in Western Christian theology, the word refers to selfish desire. In a sense, in the Lutheran tradition we refer to this also as "homo incurvatus in se", Latin for "man bent inward upon himself". Fasting means we discipline the appetites, and we focus our attention outward toward God and neighbor; it's why many different kinds of fasts exist, they are not always "complete" fasts (giving up all food and drink) but often partial fasts, often what is given up are more luxurious items (meat, dairy, eggs, oil, wine, etc); this also means that we identify with those who have less, and use what we would spend on ourselves on others, providing for others.

Fasting reminds us of the weakness and fragility of life, and that the good gifts of God are not to be horded, but shared and given freely to those in need. It pushes us away from ourselves toward others, we curb our appetites and discipline ourselves in the pursuit of obedience and faithfulness to God and love of our neighbor.

That is also the meaning of the penitential spirit of Lent, life in this world is often a harsh wilderness beset by temptation to live comfortably and easily; but the Christian life is one that is to be dedicated and devoted to carrying our cross in imitation of our Lord, the climax of Holy Week brings to mind the severity and seriousness of suffering and death, as our very Lord Himself is betrayed, arrested, brought to trial, condemned, and made to die shamefully and in humiliation by crucifixion under the command of Pontius Pilate; then Easter Sunday comes and we raise our voice in hallelujah, because death did not conquer Christ, neither does death conquer us, death is not the final voice to the world, misery and suffering are not the end; He who said, "Blessed are those who are poor, for theirs is the kingdom" and "Blessed are the hungry for they shall be fed" and "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted" has meant it; for life has overcome death, love has overcome hate, and the victory of our God is true and certain and that is why we celebrate, and why we devote ourselves to the preaching of His Gospel, and to the faithful obedience of His commandments, and to being His disciples and people in and for the world as we look forward to the coming day when He comes, again, in glory, and to the renewal of all things, World Everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Chesterton]

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. - St. Paul

 

[Chesterton]

I've been wondering why Islam has a lunar calendar instead of a lunisolar calendar or a solar calendar. Calendars helped people know when to plant so that the probability of a successful harvest would be maximized. A lunar calendar does not serve this purpose. Apparently lunar calendar resynchronizes to the solar calendar every 33 years (or so - I can't find the link where I read that). I gather that the months in the Islamic calendar are allowed to move freely into different seasons throughout this 33 year cycle. Why when Islam is one of the youngest religions did they select such a primitive calendar?

My theory is that the lunar calendar reinforces dependency on central authorities who have the astronomical knowledge to calculate the proper time for planting and harvesting absent an informative calendar. Another factor might be that lunisolar calendars seemed to have used the appearance of constellations in combination with the moon to resynchronize the months. Maybe this method would lead to differing calendars in different longitudes, and the Islamic Empire spanned most of Eurasia. (BTW, the Arabs originally had a more sophisticated lunisolar calendar, but they switched to the less sophisticated lunar calendar with Islam. In other words, it was a deliberate choice - not a lack of astronomical knowledge in the culture.)

EDIT: I think what I proposed about longitudes and constellations probably is wrong. I don't know much about astronomy

What's really interesting is that the chosen start date was Hijra. The importance of Hijra? It led to the foundation of the first Muslim "State" - an acknowledgment of the centrality of politics in this "religion".

 

[Chesterton]

Islam is a complete way of life covering everything from running a State to Religious practices and customs.

I agree.

 

[cloudyday2]

One thing about the Ramadan fasting rules that is less than ideal IMO is the abstention from water. During the Dormition of the Theotokos fast several years ago, I tried only eating one meal every other day and not drinking any water in between. It was actually a pleasant fast, but the nights after eating I would have horrible cramps in my hands and feet. This was probably due to my body using water to digest the meal and dehydrating me. I also tried going without food and water for three days during Lent once, and I started feeling like I was running a fever. My voice got very hoarse, and I was very irritable.

So I think the Muslims should make a special effort to drink a lot of fluids and not eat so much food in the evenings when they break their fast - that way they don't get cramps in the night during digestion.

Oh another thing I read about Ramadan is that Muslims are supposed to not speak during their fasting - at least that was the rule in ancient times. That is another interesting form of asceticism.

 

[cloudyday2]

Another observation on fasting is that it can sometimes help with depression. I've been trying to eat only in the evening (similar to Ramadan except that I drink black coffee and water during the day). I started that on Ash Wednesday and I've continued to do it, because it makes me feel better psychologically. My depression is not nearly as severe as it used to be while I was eating all day long. There is more anhedonia now though. I sometimes miss eating my Ding Dongs and coke for breakfast *sigh*, but for now this fasting seems to be the right way.

 

[cloudyday2]

We usually break fast with a glass of water and dates, then eat some fruit and drink more water. Perform the sundown prayer, then eat a main meal. People then tend to go to Mosque to join in with the Qur'an recitation and come home after a couple of hours. Drink plenty and eat a few dates before 03:00 and another day of fasting. You feel brilliant and realise as humans we snack and eat too much during the year, so much could and indeed should go to the less fortunate.

Not talking during Ramadan is not a mainstream teaching, I had never heard of it (no punintended) before you mentioned it.

If you're fighting depression, then as well as fasting, why not use the Qur'an to help.

Even 10 mins listening in Arabic alone, (you can read the English translation before or after) but the audio should be in Arabic only:

laptop version:
Quran Explorer select the following options; translation = hide, reciter = Mishari Rashid, or whatever voice appeals to you.

Start at chapter 1 and listen with headphones on medium vol for 10 mins.

Quran - Recite & Listen Quran Online <<<has a Mobile phone option

It will lift your spirits and dispel any negative spirits that might be keeping you down. Repeat for 3-5 days, it can also be listened to before bed for 10-15 mins and will help you have a good nights rest.

Thanks, that is a good singer/chanter. I have heard the Quran is somewhat like a poem, so probably a person should read it aloud or listen to somebody else reading it aloud.

 

[cloudyday2]

Qur'an means the recitation, that's how it was revealed and preserved.

The enemies of the Prophet pbuh would send lookouts to the edge of the City, warning people about Muhammad pbuh and warning them not to listen to him as they would be bewitched, that's how much they knew the power behind the words of the Qur'an meant it was not of this World.

Muslims read it out aloud in 3 of the daily prayers. People even read verses over water and it changes the molecular properties becoming source of healing for the body. The following shows test done on zam zam water.

Don't rush out to buy zam zam in the West, as many unscrupulous people sell fake water with high levels of toxins including arsenic.

Thanks, I had to look up Zamzam water, because I had not heard of it. Apparently it comes from a well that is claimed to be the spring that miraculously provided water for Hagar and Ishmael. ( Zamzam Well - Wikipedia ). The claims that Zamzam water creates extra beautiful snowflakes - but only when verses from Quran are read to it - is a bit hard for me to take seriously but I'm sure it is different when you are raised to believe in these types of things.

 

[Robban]

Fair enough regarding snow flakes. I don't have the necessary equipment lying around to check. The well of zamzam is alluded to in the Torah:

Isaiah
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; he that believeth shall not make haste.

28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

(`Abd Al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim, the grandfather of the Prophet rediscovered Zamzam after its landmarks were hidden.The area of dwellings at Makkah had been increasing especially after Abraham and his son Isma`il (peace and blessings be upon them) built the Sacred House. The tribe of Jurhum continued to take charge of the Sacred House and the Well of Zamzam for a period of time until a Yemenite tribe so called Khuza`ah emigrated to this place after the collapse of the Ma'rib dam. Khuza`ah went into battle with Jurhum and at the end Khuza`ah were victorious and took charge of the Sacred House.)

It is undisputed, that small spring has been supplying water in one of the most barren deserts in the World for over 1,400 years

"He speaks to this people"

v 1,
Woe is to the crown of pride of the drunkards of Efraim and
the young fruit of an inferior fig is the position of his glory,
which is at the of a valley of fatness,
crushed by wine.

He speaks to this people,
distorted speech (not readily grasped)

Another language (Words of prophesy or admonition is to them as another language which they cannot understand)

I am wondering what you have posted,
what the heck it has to do with the price of fish.

 

[Robban]

I said the well of zamzam was alluded to in the torah.

I used the translation from the Bible Gateway site, but let me go to the Isaiah Scroll found among the Dead Sea Scrolls : http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#28:1 I'll post the whole chapter:

1 Woe to the proud garland of the drunkards of Ephraim, and to the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the bloated valley of those overcome with wine!

2 See, the LORD has one who is powerful and strong. Like a hailstorm, a destroying tempest, like a storm of mighty overflowing waters and he will bring it forcefully to the ground.

3 The proud garland of the drunkards of Ephraim will be trampled underfoot.

4 And the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the bloated valley, will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer; 5 when someone sees it, he swallows it as soon as it is in his hand.

6 In that day the LORD of hosts will be a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem for the remnant of his people, and a spirit of justice to the one who sits in judgment, and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 These reel with wine and stagger with strong drink. The priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed up with wine and stagger with strong drink; they err in vision and stumble in judgment.

8 For all the tables are covered with vomit and filth, so that no place is clean.

9 To whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he interpret the message? Those who are weaned from milk, and taken from the breast?

10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

11 But by men of strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, This is the rest, give rest to him that is weary, and this is the refreshing; yet they would not listen.

13 Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little-so that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers, who rule this people that is in Jerusalem.

15 Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and we are in agreement with Sheol; when the overflowing scourge examines, it will not come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood we have hid ourselves.

16 Therefore thus says the LORD, Behold, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone of sure foundation; whoever believes will not be in panic.

17 And I will make justice the line, and righteousness the plummet; and the hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters will overflow the hiding-place.

18 And your covenant with death will be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol will not stand; when the overflowing scourge passes through, then you will be trodden down by it.

19 As often as it passes through, it will take you; for morning by morning it will pass through, by day and by night-sheer terror to understand the message.

20 For the bed is too short for people to stretch themselves on it, and the covering to wrap themselves in it.

21 For the LORD will rise up on Mount Perazim; he will be angry in the valley of Gibeon, so that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

22 But as for you, do not be scoffers, lest your bonds be made strong; for I have heard a decree of destruction from the LORD of hosts, upon the whole earth.

23 Give ear, and hear my voice; listen, and hear my speech.

24 Does he who plows to sow plow continually? Does he continually open and harrow his ground?

25 When he has leveled its surface, does he not cast abroad the caraway, and scatter the cumin, and put in the wheat in rows, and the barley in the designated place, and the spelt as its borders?

26 For his God instructs him aright, and teaches him.

27 For caraway is not threshed with a sharp threshing instrument, neither is a cartwheel rolled over the cumin; but the caraway is beaten out with a staff, and the cumin with a rod.

28 It is ground, but one does not always thresh it; although his cart and his horses may scatter it, he does not grind it.

29 This also comes from the LORD of hosts, who is distinguished in counsel, and excellent in wisdom.

Let's start with identifying what happened to the descendants of Ephraim. I did a search and the following site came up. Endtimes Christian website: The Descendants of Esau Are Ephraim and Judah’s Arch-Enemy in the End Times - Hoshana Rabbah Blog

Is it possible some descendants of Ephraim ended up in Arabia in a valley dedicated to drunkenness and idolatry? Could the fading glory and bloated valley be possible references to a former house of God now dedicated to 360 idols? God then goes on to warn how the inhabitants will fall under foot, crushed in battle. verse 5 hints things might soon be restored to their former glory and be ripe for eating/accepting. verse 6, God will aid the few and help them push back against the enemies. He will aid his Prophet, the spirit of justice. 7 The people are drunk, neglecting God in favour of useless idols. 8 so much so, the house is fully adorned with them.

9 who will God raise to restore His glory? It will be ordinary people. 10 Who will he teach with a verse here and a verse there, a surah here and a surah there?

11 & 12 A man who will speak to his own people in a superior speech over a span of time, and yet though it will come slowly, it will baffle them making them proud and turning away.

14 men of Jerusalem, (Jews) take note of this message. Some accepted, most scoffed and rejected it.

15 God warns them, think not you are safe for you have deceived yourselves.

16 God will raise his foundations in Zion, which covers the land of Arabia. A House of worship with a special cornerstone.

17 the liars who hid the hiding place will see the waters overflow and expose the well of zam zam, not far from the House of God.

18 The previous covenant will be revoked
19,20,21 and 22 The new message will come with the strength of God behind it, spreading across the Earth.

23 Embrace the message.
24-28 You've been planting and waiting, this is the harvest so be happy and rejoice, though you may not like it. Sometimes things seem harsh, but they are to help you. Giving up dealing in interest, fasting, praying 5 times a day, fighting for God's cause etc 29 God knows best

It might not gel perfectly, but given what we know about how Islam established itself in Arabia, and how the Jews and Christians were told to embrace it and the ensuing strife, I think it's not a bad fit.

I get it.

I also get that there are different directions or angles coming out of the same source.

So is zamzam an expression, a celebration of that Hagars eyes were opened to see a well?

 

[cloudyday2]

That's what I like about you, a man that's reasonable when it comes to interpreting ancient texts and can see the possibility of different understandings. Some on here could do with taking a leaf out of your book. May Adonai, glorified and exalted be He, bless you both in this life and the hereafter.

Zam zam is said to mean 'stop stop!' as Hagar ra (may God be pleased with her) tried to contain the water. The story of zamzam goes back too far for concrete facts. Some say Ishmael pbuh struck the ground and the spring came forth, others that an Angel was sent to reveal it's location. Either way it was sent as a mercy and sign for future generations.

One fundamental problem with claiming known history as fulfillment of prophecies in these religious texts is the Texas sharpshooter fallacy ( "The name comes from a joke about a Texan who fires some gunshots at the side of a barn, then paints a target centered on the tightest cluster of hits and claims to be a sharpshooter" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy ).

The religious people need to use these texts to make predictions of future events - not try to fit past events to the ambiguous ramblings of these ancient writers. This is a bit like the Nostradamus nonsense.

EDIT: And I don't mean to ridicule this particular claim that the Zamzam well is predicted in Isaiah. To be honest my eyes sort of glazed-over as I read those quotations from Isaiah and I began to wonder if this was an example of the "word salad" so typical of people with schizophrenia. I didn't see anything about a well in those quotes, but I might have missed it. ... But this is just a general comment - not meaning to single-out this Zamzam well claim.

 

[Robban]

That's what I like about you, a man that's reasonable when it comes to interpreting ancient texts and can see the possibility of different understandings. Some on here could do with taking a leaf out of your book. May Adonai, glorified and exalted be He, bless you both in this life and the hereafter.

Zam zam is said to mean 'stop stop!' as Hagar ra (may God be pleased with her) tried to contain the water. The story of zamzam goes back too far for concrete facts. Some say Ishmael pbuh struck the ground and the spring came forth, others that an Angel was sent to reveal it's location. Either way it was sent as a mercy and sign for future generations.

Thank you for the well wishes UKM, may it be so for you and yours also.


I see Hagar before me when reading/thinking about the event, it opens up a dimension/s that apply to this day today.

That He, the Holy One blessed be He,
sees and cares.