Rain and The Creation

[Micaiah]

You know, it fits a pattern. In this story, all of us were created because God needed a gardener.

He wanted to plant a garden, but he didn't have a gardener to till the ground.

So he makes a man to tend the garden, and God plants the garden and God is happy.

But the man is not. The man is alone. God sees it is not good for the man to be alone. So to keep his gardener happy, God decides to create some companions for him.

So the animals are created.

But none of them are satisfactory companions.

So woman is created.

Now the gardener is happy, and so God is happy.

I'm sorry if that sounds irreverent to some people. But that is what A PLAIN READING of the story says.

Why do people insist on making a story which a 5-year-old can follow so difficult?

Precisely. Couldn't agree more. You seem to have a problem accepting and believing something a five year old comprehends. That is your problem.

Your reasons given for why God did certain things are the only problem with your story. Your intent here is to belittle the plain teaching of Scripture, and in doing so you go beyond what the text says, and belittle God. That is a serious error.

 

[GodSaves]

Will you never cease in bearing false witness against your Christian Brothers and Sisters?

Herev, can I ask that you not take everything I say to be said to you? There are many theistic evolutionists who do believe that Adam and Eve did not exist. That they too are just part of the story and mythical. That is why I added in parenthesis 'and believe in no Adam' so ones like yourself are not included because you believe in a real living Adam.

I apologize that I did not add to my statement that you herev were not included in my statement. If you would like to charge me of bearing false witness by saying what many theistic evolutionists have openly admitted then fine.

Just remember I was not included those who believe that Adam existed, maybe one day you can think better of me instead of assuming the worse in everything I say.

God Bless

 

[Andy D]

That really is priceless, are you a Mormon in disguise? Conservative estimates place the Christian population of China at 4%. Do you know what 4% of 1.3 billion is?

Jehovah's Witnesses beleive in only 144,000 are sealed as well but maybe the statement made about 144,000 being sealed is referring only to the end times as talked in Revelation and not over all time. I think the statement just needed to be rephrased maybe??

 

[theFijian]

Precisely. Couldn't agree more. You seem to have a problem accepting and believing something a five year old comprehends. That is your problem.

What like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? We are to have a faith that is childlike, not childish.

 

[GodSaves]

Jehovah's Witnesses beleive in only 144,000 are sealed as well but maybe the statement made about 144,000 being sealed is referring only to the end times as talked in Revelation and not over all time. I think the statement just needed to be rephrased maybe??

Yes, it probably should have been phrased differently. I was tired when I wrote it so I apologize. The 144,000 that are sealed by Christ are the ones that are left and alive in the end times. There will an uncountable number of the total that are saved and with Christ in heaven at the time. This is refering to Revelations, and maybe we read this differently as well.

God Bless

 

[Andy D]

So evolution agrees with Gen. 1:26-27 instead of with the second creation story. In Genesis 1 man and woman are created together in the SAME manner.

But you cant agree with one creation story at parts where you want to and not other parts. Also the theory that makes most sense to me regarding interpreting the two creation stories is simple. The first is an overview and then the second goes into detail about the important stuff....man...the who point of God's creation. It is just like putting a magnifying glass over a certain part of the overview and bringing it alive.

 

[theFijian]

Yes, it probably should have been phrased differently. I was tired when I wrote it so I apologize. The 144,000 that are sealed by Christ are the ones that are left and alive in the end times. There will an uncountable number of the total that are saved and with Christ in heaven at the time. This is refering to Revelations, and maybe we read this differently as well.

God Bless

Yeah, lets not get started on Revelation!

 

[herev]

Herev, can I ask that you not take everything I say to be said to you? There are many theistic evolutionists who do believe that Adam and Eve did not exist. That they too are just part of the story and mythical. That is why I added in parenthesis 'and believe in no Adam' so ones like yourself are not included because you believe in a real living Adam.

I apologize that I did not add to my statement that you herev were not included in my statement. If you would like to charge me of bearing false witness by saying what many theistic evolutionists have openly admitted then fine.

Just remember I was not included those who believe that Adam existed, maybe one day you can think better of me instead of assuming the worse in everything I say.

God Bless

Thanks, that's not what I was referring to. Actually I was referring to when you said, "It sure makes it look like the teaching of evolution is more important then the scriptures."
You have been told repeated by TE's that we do not think evolution is more important than scriptures. You may feel that softening the blow by saying it sure makes it look like, but when you have been told so many times that this is false, it is a slam--it is unkind--it is judgmental--and it is immature to keep saying the same insult over and over and over and over......
You have told me that you are a new Christian, right?
I celebrate with you your newfound faith, and I take you at your word that you have studied and prayed and come to a decision to accept the creation accounts as literal. I have accepted that you are not stupid, nor are you blindly following beliefs that are not in keeping with reality. I have not suggested that your belief in creationism causes you to be any less of a Christian or a Bible Believer than TE's.
I, however, have been a Christian and a TE since I was around 12 years old. I have continuously studied it from both sides of the equation and have come to believe as I do. Yet you cannot accept that I or others like me can accept TE without making contiuous slights against our faith, our love of the word of God and our ultimate salvation. As you continue to make such claims (whether directed to me directly or not--they are insulting, judgmental, and because we have repeatedly told you it is not how we believe--it is bearing false witness against your Christian Brothers and sisters.
You have told me you are considering being a pastor. From experience, let me tell you that you NEED to step back and be able to see your judging words if you want to reach the lost for Jesus. If not, your attitude of changing others' words and the meaning behind those words will haunt you for the rest of your life.
By ending each of your posts "God Bless" or by changing it to say, "It seems" or by going back to the next person and making the same claims the previous one has corrected you on does not excuse your behavior.
I must say I watch for your posts. I do so because I believe you are called to move into ministry--it's a gift that I believe I have been given--it allows me to minister to those who are seeking a way to answer God's call. I have tried to answer legitimately every question you have posed as have many others here, but you have blinders on. I am not saying you are wearing blinders because you hold to creationism, but because you continue to say things about TE's that you KNOW are not true. It is insulting. But for some reason, you would rather be rude and insulting than step back and look at your own words or hear from another the pain they cause.
In Christ
Tommy

 

[herev]

would you have said that in Paul's day?

Can you be more specific? Would I have said what?

 

[Dr.Phil]

If Genesis is a lie then that would make the rest of the bible untrustworthy since we wouldn't know what's true or what's just a tall tale. By what standard then do we use to judge the bible? I really hadn't expected this to become a debate of the authenticity of the bible. Why would God lie to Moses?

Not to bee funny or weird or anything, But God can't lie about anything! What ever he says comes true! Need I preach?..

 

[herev]

Not to bee funny or weird or anything, But God can't lie about anything! What ever he says comes true! Need I preach?..

welcome

I am a fan of Dr. Phil!!! I welcome you to Christian Forums.
I agree completely. God never lies.

 

[Andy D]

Not really. Not to accept it. To engage in discussions about it intelligibly, yes, one does need to study some science. But most people don't engage in discussions like these.

And that is why I was reading the biblical story to my children when they were pre-schoolers. But I also read simple science to them as well. I let them ask questions about the relation of science and scripture as they were ready.

I did not find this to be the case. When they began asking questions, they quickly understood that the biblical stories were stories told long ago and used the science of the time to reveal God as creator. We have a different idea about science today, but we still believe in God as creator.

Now, they would not be able to describe either the science side or the theological side of TE, even as adults, because their interests did not lead them into this discussion. But the basic concept was not difficult for them to grasp.

But as science updates, you need to teach them new stuff. Things such as fossils which are found to be hoax's or not what they at first seemed which is the case with many of the fossils that were classified as early man and then found to be nothing but a chimp. Many textbooks are incorrect in their teachings. They go through what they call simple life forms to show how they evolved into complex ones. This again is all speculation and shouldnt ever be taught as fact. Whilst evolutionary theory is more advanced than years ago when we imagined some simple life evolving into an ape and going through all these different life forms to get there, it is still taught in many textbooks that way. I understand it might just be trying to get a concept across but really, it shouldnt be taught anymore than creationism as an alternative. We are supposed to be taught to think for ourselves right?

 

[herev]

But as science updates, you need to teach them new stuff. Things such as fossils which are found to be hoax's or not what they at first seemed which is the case with many of the fossils that were classified as early man and then found to be nothing but a chimp. Many textbooks are incorrect in their teachings. They go through what they call simple life forms to show how they evolved into complex ones. This again is all speculation and shouldnt ever be taught as fact. Whilst evolutionary theory is more advanced than years ago when we imagined some simple life evolving into an ape and going through all these different life forms to get there, it is still taught in many textbooks that way. I understand it might just be trying to get a concept across but really, it shouldnt be taught anymore than creationism as an alternative. We are supposed to be taught to think for ourselves right?

Hi Andy D
I know this was not directed at me---but I agree whole heartedly that we should teach both creationism and evolution together and both as theories or beliefs. Give them all the facts we can--and let them make a decision!

 

[Andy D]

Well, one of the creation accounts says he was alone for a while, the other doesn't. I am not sure what God may or may not be telling us in this--I have never looked for each individual verse in the creation accounts to contain a special revelation--I look the creation accounts together and in their entirety, including contradictions and seek God's lessons from there

But I dont see any contradictions. I dont believe God would have allowed contradictions in the original text. Look at how well the NT and OT fit together and the references of Paul and Jesus and others of the OT all fit so nicely.

 

[herev]

But I dont see any contradictions. I dont believe God would have allowed contradictions in the original text. Look at how well the NT and OT fit together and the references of Paul and Jesus and others of the OT all fit so nicely.

I can accept that--However, I do see contradictions (if you take them literally). They do go together as one quotes the other, but we do not know if the intent of the one who quotes it is that they are referring to the literal or the figurative.
For me, the contradictions lend support to not taking them literally (though it is certainly not enough evidence to do so on its own.)
Thanks
tommy

 

[GodSaves]

my apologies.

 

[herev]

my apologies.

Was that directed at me?

If so,

back at you. ( I apolgize as well)
I mean you no harm at all, really, I don't--I believe in my heart God has a wonderful ministry in store for you. Your ferver for the word of God is impressive. Don't let anyone push you to changing your beliefs and preach them from the highest wall. I will continue to pray for you and God's calling on your life.
Tommy

 

[Andy D]

This so frustrates me. This is why I cannot abide literalistic interpretations. I am a teacher of literature, and these stories are wonderful literature. And debating them as if they were fact just sweeps that under the rug.

Why is Adam alone for a time? Isn't it obvious from the story itself? So that God could observe (and teach us) that "it is not good for the man to be alone". And so God is motivated to create the animals!!!!!!

You know, it fits a pattern. In this story, all of us were created because God needed a gardener.

He wanted to plant a garden, but he didn't have a gardener to till the ground.

So he makes a man to tend the garden, and God plants the garden and God is happy.

But the man is not. The man is alone. God sees it is not good for the man to be alone. So to keep his gardener happy, God decides to create some companions for him.

So the animals are created.

But none of them are satisfactory companions.

So woman is created.

Now the gardener is happy, and so God is happy.

I'm sorry if that sounds irreverent to some people. But that is what A PLAIN READING of the story says.

Why do people insist on making a story which a 5-year-old can follow so difficult?

Can you please re-write all this but insert the verses along side to see if it fits the story. Also, God had a plan before the foundations of this world and that plan was to show His love to a creature of free will, man. In all His glory and power, He was going to send His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to die for us. The plan wasnt to make a world that was good and a man in a garden to be a gardener (as God doesnt need a gardener, He is all sufficient in all ways). He created and saw that it was good....emphasises this in the creation account to really highlight how beautiful and awesome original creation was. Man, in the image of God, the world was all created and was good. Then comes the fall of man, SIN!! This one thing COMPLETELY destroyed our union with God as Adam once knew it. As you can see, it all fits nicely and whilst it might not sound like a nice story and whilst it may destroy the children's story that many people tell, that is how it is. The mystery revealed, it is talked about in the NT about how whilst we were STILL sinners, Christ died for us. Before we were even thought of by any human being, God knew each one of us who would live and as the potter and the clay, He knew how each one of us would be shaped and moulded.

The creation story isnt about God needing a gardener to till the ground. The curse of man from the sin was to work the ground now. Even if you look at it as the story you told, God created the animals....after man in your story....did man evolve and then the animals? See, if you want to compare this account in anyway to the beginnings of man, at least it must fit the story...we cant just change the story to make it a children's story.

 

[Dr.Phil]

Yea.. .That is soo true.

 

[herev]

Can you please re-write all this but insert the verses along side to see if it fits the story. Also, God had a plan before the foundations of this world and that plan was to show His love to a creature of free will, man. In all His glory and power, He was going to send His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to die for us. The plan wasnt to make a world that was good and a man in a garden to be a gardener (as God doesnt need a gardener, He is all sufficient in all ways).

I think she was referring to Genesis 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.