Racism on display at University of Virginia

[rjs330]

If the OECD data is correct, and I see no reason to doubt it, if a person is put into a position of poverty, it takes 5 generations to recover from that in terms of economic mobility.

We can agree that racist policies of the past did that to the black community...

Even if from the moment the civil rights legislation was passed, everyone wholeheartedly embraced it and stopped all forms of racism (which is a pipe dream, that certainly didn't happen), it would take 5 generations to economically recover from that.

It's not a hard concept to understand...
If my family made policies that robbed your family of property, refused to hire your family, and impoverished your family and made laws that targeted your family and created numerous single parent homes. And then one days "okay, clean slate, moving forward we're not gonna do that stuff anymore", it's going to take a few generations for your family to be able to catch up.

All racial aspects aside, and just speaking to poverty in general, there's a reason why, in terms of economic mobility, 80% of people end up in the same economic bracket as their parents, and only 10% experience upward mobility.

Apart from a few outlier circumstances, the US is very much a "you need to have money to make money" sort of society. There are a few rags to riches stories out there, but that's certainly not the norm. In most cases, if you're parents are poor, your options are far more limited than that of a kid who's parents have money.

We are not talking about economics. We are talking about racism. This girl and the vast majority vote the black community did not experience slavery or Jim Crowe.

Her attitude will only further divide people and not bring them together. Being angry with me for something I had no part of, will alienate me not bring me closer.

 

[rjs330]

A 100% absolutist "equality moving forward" isn't really equality if one side is starting at a tremendous disadvantage. Equal opportunity means both parties start the race at the same starting line.

In the past, I've used the analogy of a boxing match.

If we were in a boxing match, and for the first 3 rounds, not only did the ref let me cheat, but encouraged it, and did everything in his power to try to cheat you (make you fight with a blindfold and tied one hand behind your back), and I absolutely pummeled you for those first 3 rounds...

Then, between rounds 3 and 4, they had a change of heart, and decided that was wrong, and said "no more cheating moving forward, starting in round 4, everything will be Even-Steven", but then did absolutely nothing (or close to nothing) to counterbalance what had previously happened, but still had the expectation that 'you still have to try to win this thing', you're going to have a very rough time coming back from that without having to employ some sketchy tactics of your own.


That's basically what's happening.

The "okay, from now on, everything is equal moving forward" isn't really equality. It's an attempt to enforce "selective fairness" after one side is already at an extreme disadvantage.

Sorta like letting a bank robber keep all of his ill gotten earnings (and not have to make restitution) as long as they promise not to steal again.

What's this great disadvantage that an individual black person has right now that an individual white person doesn't? What economic advantage do i have that a black person doesn't?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The whole 'outrage' over this kind of petty nonsense is a bit ridiculous. If you fall down a slope and break your leg, you're not going to stress about the scratch on your finger.

This is nonsense.

It seems strange that the US refuses to deal with its own history, not even teaching the history of slavery as a standard part of the school curriculum. That doesn't seem strange to you?

You must not be from here....most schools teach about slavery.

A country that can end up voting in someone like Trump clearly has issues, and dealing openly and honestly with its own history and the ongoing affects of that would be one way for North America to mature so that it can continue to lead the world, rather than looking to its own narrow interests, or trying to pretend that situations like the one in this vid are somehow on a par with the much more consequential affects of racism in society. Institutionalised racism isn't obvious in Europe either, but it's still there.

Either racism is bad or it isn't...which do you believe?

 

[rjs330]

The whole 'outrage' over this kind of petty nonsense is a bit ridiculous. If you fall down a slope and break your leg, you're not going to stress about the scratch on your finger. It seems strange that the US refuses to deal with its own history, not even teaching the history of slavery as a standard part of the school curriculum. That doesn't seem strange to you? A country that can end up voting in someone like Trump clearly has issues, and dealing openly and honestly with its own history and the ongoing affects of that would be one way for North America to mature so that it can continue to lead the world, rather than looking to its own narrow interests, or trying to pretend that situations like the one in this vid are somehow on a par with the much more consequential affects of racism in society. Institutionalised racism isn't obvious in Europe either, but it's still there.

I'm not sure where you get the whole schools don't teach about slavery idea. All four of my kids learned about it in school. My son is still in school and learned about it.

 

[Tom 1]

I'm not sure where you get the whole schools don't teach about slavery idea. All four of my kids learned about it in school. My son is still in school and learned about it.

Yeah? I read in a few places, like this article, that it just gets a cursory treatment: Why Can’t We Teach Slavery Right in American Schools?

 

[Tom 1]

This is nonsense.



You must not be from here....most schools teach about slavery.



Either racism is bad or it isn't...which do you believe?

Whether it is ‘bad’ in some abstract sense has no relevance to anything. This whining over ‘racism’ against whites over the tiniest thing is pathetic beyond belief.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It just goes to show that diversity, multiculturalism and equality are for everyone but whites. It's nice when they finally open up and become honest about it and stop hiding behind, "We just want equal rights!" when they actually see themselves as more "equal" than the rest of us.

One could see it as "multiculturalism is an evil hoax, and this is what those people wanted all along," OR one could see it as yet another in a long series of instances throughout history where an oppressed group becomes oppressors themselves when they attain power.

Either way, it's profoundly disappointing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Whether it is ‘bad’ in some abstract sense has no relevance to anything.

So you don't think racism is bad?

This whining over ‘racism’ against whites over the tiniest thing is pathetic beyond belief.

I understand that you are cool with racism against whites.

 

[rjs330]

Yeah? I read in a few places, like this article, that it just gets a cursory treatment: Why Can’t We Teach Slavery Right in American Schools?

Purely an opinion piece. If we are not teaching slavery the way people "think" we should then we are doing it wrong. Hogwash. It's only opinion on how it should be taught. Slavery was a part of the history of the entire world, not just America. It was part of our history that we overcame.

History is always a problem. And it's a problem today. Kids don't know a lot about history.

Don’t know much about history

So some arbitrary idea says they need to know more about slavery should apply to all of US history. The kids should learn more about all of US history. One thing though, is that I don't believe ANY of the kids would say slavery is good and we should still own slaves. They may not know all the details, but they are still taught the horrors of it and know black people shouldn't be enslaved.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If a someone robbed by grandfather and the money was never recovered....would I be justified in hitting up his grandchildren for the money stolen?

...no, but you'd be justified at being angry at the situation, and angry if his grandchildren started acting as if your anger was unfounded and unreasonable.

When you have a community, that, through no fault of their own, was screwed over by the government in atrocious ways and put on the path to generational poverty (which takes 5 generations to fully recover from), and then when they express their frustration about it, half of the population makes dismissive comments about how it's "a culture problem" or "everyone is responsible for their own success, you just need to try harder", you could certainly understand why that could raise some anger, yes?

If someone else stole your car, and you're trying to vent and explain to everyone how much that's negatively impacted you, and how it's not fair that it's caused a great inconvenience to you and set you back in many ways, and I (even though I had nothing to do with the car theft) told you "well, the problem is that you didn't work hard enough to make enough money to buy a 2nd car, if you had, this wouldn't be a problem", you'd rightfully have a few choice names to call me.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Sure...but as far as punishment goes, we can't exactly punish someone for following the law. Being required to use a different restroom....even one far worse than others....isn't exactly the same as being rounded up, worked to death, then gassed.

It's not as if segregationist politicians were voting against the will of the people they represented either.

If anything, that's quite telling that enough of the population was racist enough that segregation was the "will of the majority". Knowing that, it's easy to see how that resulted in one particular group of people getting set on the path of 5 generations of poverty.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What's this great disadvantage that an individual black person has right now that an individual white person doesn't? What economic advantage do i have that a black person doesn't?

Are you talking about on an individual level, or the demographic as a whole?

As I touched on before, it takes 5 generations to recover from poverty in the US, with only 10% of people seeing upward mobility (in comparison to their parents) each generation.

On an individual level, sure, Shaq makes more money than me...but that by no means reflects the aggregated data or data pertaining to economic mobility and generational poverty patterns.

On the demographic level, the advantage you have is that you were born into a family that wasn't one of the demographics targeted for abuse and economic ruin within the past 5 generations.

Or another way of putting it, if you're born into a white family, chances are far less that you're born into a family that was placed into a poverty cycle as a result of policies in the last 5 generations.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

We are not talking about economics. We are talking about racism. This girl and the vast majority vote the black community did not experience slavery or Jim Crowe.

Her attitude will only further divide people and not bring them together. Being angry with me for something I had no part of, will alienate me not bring me closer.

You can't detach the two in the context of black people living the US since those policies have effects for 5 generations, and those policies (which were racist in nature) included things that were aimed at economically disabling them.

You don't have to be alive at the time a wrongdoing occurs in order to be the victim of that wrong doing (indirectly).

If your grandpa lied about my grandpa committing a crime and as a result my grandpa went to jail, leaving my parent growing up in a struggling single parent household (and all the problems that go along with it), and I experience negative aspects because of that. It's not fair to say "well gee Rob, nobody lied about you committing a crime, I don't know what you're complaining about".

In most cases, black people aren't angry at a current white person for past racism, they're angry because every time they try to explain why they're in the current state they in, and don't have the same kinds of economic advantages as most white people, and why it's the fault of things that were outside of their control, a bunch of white people swoop in to lecture them with talking points implying that "it's your fault for not working hard enough". Or "you weren't alive in the 50's so you've got no reason to complain", or "it's a culture problem"


So, I'll explain it one last time (then I'll be moving on to other talking points since I'm just repeating myself)

If a particular family is put into a situation of poverty, it takes 5 generations to recover and get back to the median societal economic class (that statement would absolutely apply to black families within the past 5 generations)

Only 10% of people experience upward economic mobility in comparison to their parents.

When you combine those factors, it's 100% true to say that there are still many black kids being born today, that are experiencing some sort of negative financial impact as a result of the fact that their family lineage had been put in a state poverty within the past 5 generations. It gets less severe, and the disparity shrinks with each passing generation...and you can find outlier situations, but the overall data is pretty clear on that.

It's the failure to even be willing to acknowledge that (on the part of many white people) that sparks much of the anger.


A simple way to look at it.

If you had a guy who was mistreated by the government and kept in poverty most of his life and as a result, goes to his grave with next to nothing, and another guy who was worth $5 million dollars...whose great grand kids do you suspect will be better off financially in a few generations?

Even though the great grand kids weren't responsible for that unfair disparity, it's be foolish to pretend that they're not going to benefit from it.

 

[rjs330]

Are you talking about on an individual level, or the demographic as a whole?

As I touched on before, it takes 5 generations to recover from poverty in the US, with only 10% of people seeing upward mobility (in comparison to their parents) each generation.

On an individual level, sure, Shaq makes more money than me...but that by no means reflects the aggregated data or data pertaining to economic mobility and generational poverty patterns.

On the demographic level, the advantage you have is that you were born into a family that wasn't one of the demographics targeted for abuse and economic ruin within the past 5 generations.

Or another way of putting it, if you're born into a white family, chances are far less that you're born into a family that was placed into a poverty cycle as a result of policies in the last 5 generations.

I'm talking an individual level. And more relevantly the average person. Not the superstar.

Because it's the average person that needs to have opportunities not the guy who's a stud basketball player or super singer. What opportunities do i have as an average white person that is not available to the average black person?

 

[rjs330]

You can't detach the two in the context of black people living the US since those policies have effects for 5 generations, and those policies (which were racist in nature) included things that were aimed at economically disabling them.

You don't have to be alive at the time a wrongdoing occurs in order to be the victim of that wrong doing (indirectly).

If your grandpa lied about my grandpa committing a crime and as a result my grandpa went to jail, leaving my parent growing up in a struggling single parent household (and all the problems that go along with it), and I experience negative aspects because of that. It's not fair to say "well gee Rob, nobody lied about you committing a crime, I don't know what you're complaining about".

In most cases, black people aren't angry at a current white person for past racism, they're angry because every time they try to explain why they're in the current state they in, and don't have the same kinds of economic advantages as most white people, and why it's the fault of things that were outside of their control, a bunch of white people swoop in to lecture them with talking points implying that "it's your fault for not working hard enough". Or "you weren't alive in the 50's so you've got no reason to complain", or "it's a culture problem"


So, I'll explain it one last time (then I'll be moving on to other talking points since I'm just repeating myself)

If a particular family is put into a situation of poverty, it takes 5 generations to recover and get back to the median societal economic class (that statement would absolutely apply to black families within the past 5 generations)

Only 10% of people experience upward economic mobility in comparison to their parents.

When you combine those factors, it's 100% true to say that there are still many black kids being born today, that are experiencing some sort of negative financial impact as a result of the fact that their family lineage had been put in a state poverty within the past 5 generations. It gets less severe, and the disparity shrinks with each passing generation...and you can find outlier situations, but the overall data is pretty clear on that.

It's the failure to even be willing to acknowledge that (on the part of many white people) that sparks much of the anger.


A simple way to look at it.

If you had a guy who was mistreated by the government and kept in poverty most of his life and as a result, goes to his grave with next to nothing, and another guy who was worth $5 million dollars...whose great grand kids do you suspect will be better off financially in a few generations?

Even though the great grand kids weren't responsible for that unfair disparity, it's be foolish to pretend that they're not going to benefit from it.

I get the generational problems. No need to go over it.

At what point does the person lay aside the injustices of the past and begin to take advantage of the opportunities of today? Neither he nor I can do a darn thing about Jim Crowe. Nothing. I can complain about it, point it out etc, but it does nothing for me or the people around me whom i am angry with which had nothing to do with it. This woman can be angry with me and not want me around because I'm white, because some white people in the south enslaved her people etc. But I had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. So being like that does nothing for her or me.

But what she CAN do is be on catalyst to set things in motion to take advantage of her opportunity right now to move out of her current situation to a better one. Blaming me won't help that. As each black person embraces their opportunities and takes advantage of them they will move out of that generational situation. And by treating me and other white people appropriately she will build relationships with us, which is better for all of us.

It starts with them. Not me. I didn't do anything and neither did any member of my family tree. Being prejudiced towards me, doesn't help her or any black person in the least. It just creates animosity. And that helps no one. It doesn't help her out of her position. It doesn't help the black community get better.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I'm talking an individual level. And more relevantly the average person. Not the superstar.

Because it's the average person that needs to have opportunities not the guy who's a stud basketball player or super singer. What opportunities do i have as an average white person that is not available to the average black person?

Statistically speaking?

Quite a bit actually:

Median Household income by race:

Statistically speaking the average white baby will be born into a family that has over twice the income as their black counterpart.

With family income, comes opportunity (particularly, in the educational realm...which leads to future income determinations as an adult). A family with double the household income is likely going to live in a better school district, and be more equipped to help their children with covering the ever-rising costs of post-secondary education.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I get the generational problems. No need to go over it.

At what point does the person lay aside the injustices of the past and begin to take advantage of the opportunities of today? Neither he nor I can do a darn thing about Jim Crowe. Nothing. I can complain about it, point it out etc, but it does nothing for me or the people around me whom i am angry with which had nothing to do with it. This woman can be angry with me and not want me around because I'm white, because some white people in the south enslaved her people etc. But I had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. So being like that does nothing for her or me.

But what she CAN do is be on catalyst to set things in motion to take advantage of her opportunity right now to move out of her current situation to a better one. Blaming me won't help that. As each black person embraces their opportunities and takes advantage of them they will move out of that generational situation. And by treating me and other white people appropriately she will build relationships with us, which is better for all of us.

It starts with them. Not me. I didn't do anything and neither did any member of my family tree. Being prejudiced towards me, doesn't help her or any black person in the least. It just creates animosity. And that helps no one. It doesn't help her out of her position. It doesn't help the black community get better.

People do overcome them...which is why the disparity level in 2020 is smaller than the disparity level in 2000...which was smaller than the disparity level in 1980, etc...

The issue is that people don't seem to want to acknowledge that the differences are attributed to things that were out of their control.

When you have a situation where someone is born into a disproportionate disadvantage, the expectation that "it's 100% on them to overachieve in order to cover the difference", that is, in and of itself, a manifestation of inequality.

Even if we table the race aspect for a moment and just focus on economic difference, the expectation that a poor kid should have to be an exceptional academic overachiever in order to get the same things as a upper-middle class kid with a C+ average isn't "equal opportunity".

Now, when you introduce the fact that statistically, black kids are more likely to be born into lower income households, that highlights the inequity both in terms of opportunities and expectations.

The animosity was created when people had the attitude that the onus is on black people to vastly overachieve (in comparison to their white counterparts) in order to attain the same things that the average white kids get by default.


If you're a child, born into a low income family, in a neighborhood with sub-par schools, it's not "equal" to expect you to have to somehow "fight your way to the top" against kids born into families with more money, in good school districts, who have parents who can afford to send them to better schools, then college.

 

[Ana the Ist]

...no, but you'd be justified at being angry at the situation, and angry if his grandchildren started acting as if your anger was unfounded and unreasonable.

Anger at the situation...sure. Anger at the grandchildren? Not at all.

When you have a community, that, through no fault of their own, was screwed over by the government in atrocious ways and put on the path to generational poverty (which takes 5 generations to fully recover from), and then when they express their frustration about it, half of the population makes dismissive comments about how it's "a culture problem" or "everyone is responsible for their own success, you just need to try harder", you could certainly understand why that could raise some anger, yes?

There's an issue there...of how much is caused by circumstances and how much is caused by choice.

The gap in wealth between white and black was at it lowest in the mid to late 1960s. What's the great discrimination that increased it since then?

If someone else stole your car, and you're trying to vent and explain to everyone how much that's negatively impacted you, and how it's not fair that it's caused a great inconvenience to you and set you back in many ways, and I (even though I had nothing to do with the car theft) told you "well, the problem is that you didn't work hard enough to make enough money to buy a 2nd car, if you had, this wouldn't be a problem", you'd rightfully have a few choice names to call me.

Sure...but I'd be wrong to blame you. After all, you didn't steal the car.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If anything, that's quite telling that enough of the population was racist enough that segregation was the "will of the majority". Knowing that, it's easy to see how that resulted in one particular group of people getting set on the path of 5 generations of poverty.

Is it? Certainly having to ride at the back of the bus or having a less clean restroom wouldn't bring one to poverty. I can see how a lesser education would...but what else?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you're a child, born into a low income family, in a neighborhood with sub-par schools, it's not "equal" to expect you to have to somehow "fight your way to the top" against kids born into families with more money, in good school districts, who have parents who can afford to send them to better schools, then college.

Let's assume for one moment that we could possibly keep people from buying advantages for their kids. That we could stop them from hiring tutors, better teachers, better schools, better equipment, better opportunities, etc.

Should we? I don't think we could actually prevent these things....but should we if we could? Should we prevent people from getting better cars, better homes in better neighborhoods, etc? Because if we're going to remove advantages....we'd really need to remove them all.