Race seems to be a divisive issue among Christians

[Eftsoon]

Would pedophilia in the Catholic church end by keeping quiet about it? Would spouse abuse end by keeping quiet about it? No sin ends by keeping quiet about it.

I think there's an omission there. I assumed he meant that we need to stop talking about race, which I suppose would entail an end to talking about racism.
I would agree that race is a poisoned well. Culture is a far more dynamic and meaningful way to think about things. Culture is inclusive where race is exclusive.

 

[Ophiolite]

Would pedophilia in the Catholic church end by keeping quiet about it? Would spouse abuse end by keeping quiet about it?

No sin ends by keeping quiet about it.

You have misunderstood the thrust of my post. That is my fault. Frankly, I found it difficult to find the right words and the right structure to convey my thinking. I'll give it another go. It may be long winded.

Each time we talk about the abuse or disadvantage experienced by someone because of their race we highlight the fact that we (and often they) see differences between them and us. But there is no them and us. We are all people. We are all human.

Sure there are differences, but let's look at those as differences of the individual. He is a brilliant pianist. She is an outstanding physicist. He has been unsuccesful in getting tenure at university. She has been insulted in the street.
Let's celebrate the musicianship and the scientific rigour for what they are: impressive skills demonstrated by indivuals. Lets abhor and seek to correct any and all unfair employment practices, and condemn and address allinstances of abuse to whomever they occur.

I was prompted to post on this topic after a discussion a couple of weeks ago with my son, where he expressed similar views, but with considerably more passion and frustration. I mention him because his views were formed as one of mixed race who has put up with some of abuse and prejudice most of us would like to see come to an end. My statement "racism will not end till we stop talking about" was actually his, with several words that revealed the depth of his conviction on the matter removed.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Would pedophilia in the Catholic church end by keeping quiet about it? Would spouse abuse end by keeping quiet about it?

No sin ends by keeping quiet about it.

Agreed.

"But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the LORD, and be sure your sin will find you out." - Numbers 32:23

Repentance cannot happen unless we stand in front of the mirror and see our sin for what it really is: Sin.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RDKirk]

You have misunderstood the thrust of my post. That is my fault. Frankly, I found it difficult to find the right words and the right structure to convey my thinking. I'll give it another go. It may be long winded.

Each time we talk about the abuse or disadvantage experienced by someone because of their race we highlight the fact that we (and often they) see differences between them and us. But there is no them and us. We are all people. We are all human.

Sure there are differences, but let's look at those as differences of the individual. He is a brilliant pianist. She is an outstanding physicist. He has been unsuccesful in getting tenure at university. She has been insulted in the street.
Let's celebrate the musicianship and the scientific rigour for what they are: impressive skills demonstrated by indivuals. Lets abhor and seek to correct any and all unfair employment practices, and condemn and address allinstances of abuse to whomever they occur.

How would you know that such abuses occurred and that skin color was the reason if nobody made note of it?

I was prompted to post on this topic after a discussion a couple of weeks ago with my son, where he expressed similar views, but with considerably more passion and frustration. I mention him because his views were formed as one of mixed race who has put up with some of abuse and prejudice most of us would like to see come to an end. My statement "racism will not end till we stop talking about" was actually his, with several words that revealed the depth of his conviction on the matter removed.

Although, in fact, another race has been created. "Biracial" was purely the invention of white mothers in the 1980s. The concept had no social meaning before then.

My daughter is not biracial, but is light-skinned. She discovered, somewhat to her dismay, that her current CEO has assumed she is biracial--like his granddaughter--and has likely been favoring her for that reason.

 

[Ophiolite]

How would you know that such abuses occurred and that skin color was the reason if nobody made note of it?

I've done my best to express what I mean. Your question shows I continue to do an inadequate job of it. If a better exposition occurs to me I'll post again.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've done my best to express what I mean. Your question shows I continue to do an inadequate job of it. If a better exposition occurs to me I'll post again.

The difficulty, at least as I see it, with what you are getting at is that what you describe is a noble goal; but constitutes an ends rather than a means. We should focus on our common humanity, we should recognize that skin color really is only skin deep. Martin Luther King's dream of a better tomorrow remains a dream; and it remains still firmly somewhere in the tomorrow (or at least we can pray and hope).

But here and now the means of reaching such an end requires a very, very, very frank and open conversation about race. One that is going to make a lot of people (and, in all fairness, I really mean white people, including myself, here) very, very uncomfortable.

That is the discomfort society must experience if we ever want to start having a healing process, a process that might see King's dream one day become a reality.

Growing pains aren't pleasant, but they are necessary. And continuing with that metaphor, there's a lot of people who are more interested in throwing an adolescent tantrum rather than grow up and face that discomfort with maturity and honesty.

So, as I see it, I--a white person--should be uncomfortable. It's not pleasant to realize that you've been living your life born with a certain kind of privilege that others were never afforded. I often see people talk about "white guilt", but virtually no one is saying that white people should feel guilty for having pink skin. Guilt isn't the point, becoming more self-aware, and also more other-aware is the point.

We shouldn't be thinking in "us" and "them" terms when it comes to a lot of things, skin color included. Race is a fundamentally imaginary construct, a cultural invention that emerged chiefly in the context of white Europeans making contact with diverse cultures, and seeking to justify European conquest and subjugation of those people. Over the course of nearly 500 years a lot of deep, deep pain has been caused. And we've only really started to have anything resembling a conversation about that in the past six decades. Though in some respects it almost feels like we haven't actually been having a conversation about it until like a couple years ago.

I think the very fact that CRT and BLM are demonized perfectly encapsulates just how incredibly little has actually been accomplished since the Civil Rights Movement. The fact that saying that black lives also matter infuriates so many people is a significant diagnostic of a very deep problem.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Eftsoon]

The difficulty, at least as I see it, with what you are getting at is that what you describe is a noble goal; but constitutes an ends rather than a means. We should focus on our common humanity, we should recognize that skin color really is only skin deep. Martin Luther King's dream of a better tomorrow remains a dream; and it remains still firmly somewhere in the tomorrow (or at least we can pray and hope).

But here and now the means of reaching such an end requires a very, very, very frank and open conversation about race. One that is going to make a lot of people (and, in all fairness, I really mean white people, including myself, here) very, very uncomfortable.

That is the discomfort society must experience if we ever want to start having a healing process, a process that might see King's dream one day become a reality.

Growing pains aren't pleasant, but they are necessary. And continuing with that metaphor, there's a lot of people who are more interested in throwing an adolescent tantrum rather than grow up and face that discomfort with maturity and honesty.

So, as I see it, I--a white person--should be uncomfortable. It's not pleasant to realize that you've been living your life born with a certain kind of privilege that others were never afforded. I often see people talk about "white guilt", but virtually no one is saying that white people should feel guilty for having pink skin. Guilt isn't the point, becoming more self-aware, and also more other-aware is the point.

We shouldn't be thinking in "us" and "them" terms when it comes to a lot of things, skin color included. Race is a fundamentally imaginary construct, a cultural invention that emerged chiefly in the context of white Europeans making contact with diverse cultures, and seeking to justify European conquest and subjugation of those people. Over the course of nearly 500 years a lot of deep, deep pain has been caused. And we've only really started to have anything resembling a conversation about that in the past six decades. Though in some respects it almost feels like we haven't actually been having a conversation about it until like a couple years ago.

I think the very fact that CRT and BLM are demonized perfectly encapsulates just how incredibly little has actually been accomplished since the Civil Rights Movement. The fact that saying that black lives also matter infuriates so many people is a significant diagnostic of a very deep problem.

-CryptoLutheran

Exceptionally well put.

 

[Eftsoon]

The difficulty, at least as I see it, with what you are getting at is that what you describe is a noble goal; but constitutes an ends rather than a means. We should focus on our common humanity, we should recognize that skin color really is only skin deep. Martin Luther King's dream of a better tomorrow remains a dream; and it remains still firmly somewhere in the tomorrow (or at least we can pray and hope).

But here and now the means of reaching such an end requires a very, very, very frank and open conversation about race. One that is going to make a lot of people (and, in all fairness, I really mean white people, including myself, here) very, very uncomfortable.

That is the discomfort society must experience if we ever want to start having a healing process, a process that might see King's dream one day become a reality.

Growing pains aren't pleasant, but they are necessary. And continuing with that metaphor, there's a lot of people who are more interested in throwing an adolescent tantrum rather than grow up and face that discomfort with maturity and honesty.

So, as I see it, I--a white person--should be uncomfortable. It's not pleasant to realize that you've been living your life born with a certain kind of privilege that others were never afforded. I often see people talk about "white guilt", but virtually no one is saying that white people should feel guilty for having pink skin. Guilt isn't the point, becoming more self-aware, and also more other-aware is the point.

We shouldn't be thinking in "us" and "them" terms when it comes to a lot of things, skin color included. Race is a fundamentally imaginary construct, a cultural invention that emerged chiefly in the context of white Europeans making contact with diverse cultures, and seeking to justify European conquest and subjugation of those people. Over the course of nearly 500 years a lot of deep, deep pain has been caused. And we've only really started to have anything resembling a conversation about that in the past six decades. Though in some respects it almost feels like we haven't actually been having a conversation about it until like a couple years ago.

I think the very fact that CRT and BLM are demonized perfectly encapsulates just how incredibly little has actually been accomplished since the Civil Rights Movement. The fact that saying that black lives also matter infuriates so many people is a significant diagnostic of a very deep problem.

-CryptoLutheran

I think that we have to recognise that the dominance of the west comes at a heavy cost to brown-skinned people. Whether we're talking about Canadian, Australian or American natives, there is no justification for the cost.

For westerners to have the comforts and advances we enjoy, children in DRC have to mine cobalt, and women in Pakistan have to slave away in bleak sweatshops. There is a very convincing argument to be made that we still have forms of slavery, but dispersed globally in the form of oppressive labour practices.

 

[Aldebaran]

I think that we have to recognise that the dominance of the west comes at a heavy cost to brown-skinned people. Whether we're talking about Canadian, Australian or American natives, there is no justification for the cost.

For westerners to have the comforts and advances we enjoy, children in DRC have to mine cobalt, and women in Pakistan have to slave away in bleak sweatshops. There is a very convincing argument to be made that we still have forms of slavery, but dispersed globally in the form of oppressive labour practices.

None of which explains why "brown-skinned people" are still illegally crossing our border to be in this Western country.

 

[Eftsoon]

None of which explains why "brown-skinned people" are still illegally crossing our border to be in this Western country.

Migrants are leaving impoverished LEDCs. How did the LEDCs become impoverished? The West is in large part responsible. Not wholly of course, but there is an overhwelming weight of responsiblity.