Rabbis...

anisavta said:

You know it just occurred to me - why is it such a big hairy deal? Is there somewhere in the Torah that says we must all speak to HaShem like Contra or anyone else?

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This is true- but I guess our point was that if you choose to speak to God in a language foreign to you, what is your motivation? If one person deems one language more "holy" or "pure" than another, I'd say that they are guilty of idolatry because such a concept is foreign to the revelation from God. God is the cause of diverse languages. I do, I emphasize, believe that scripture should always be retained and preserved in its original language, and that our translations of it should be accurate.

If you do it because it is your comfortable tongue or whatever- I say go for it.

If you don't like saying Yeshua than don't. But why is it so important for me or someone else to use His Greek or actually His hybrid name? Are you telling me I'm wrong in using Hebrew instead of Greek? I guess we all have to be Episcopalians or Methodists or Baptists - but heaven forbid a gasp Messianic.
We argue about the most insignificant things don't we?

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No one is saying that an individual must do one thing or another. Not me anyway.

However, I think in public worship all things should be done in a way that the people may understand and thus open the doors to allow them to participate from their hearts. That's all.

So, yes, there's a discussion on trivialities here but also on something that could be important.

visionary said:

I have a concern with breakinging the sabbath according to God.

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And, according to G-d, what would be breaking the sabbath?

I hear it from Gentile Messianics on occasion

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FAR more than "on occasion". In fact, it has been incessently preached on this very forum.

Because it's trend

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Bingo.

You know it just occurred to me - why is it such a big hairy deal?

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Its not a big hairy deal... but Messianics make it one. They demand that anything Grecko/Roman MUST be influenced by paganism. They condemn anyone who uses Grecko/Roman language and insist on copycating the Jewish traditions.

Moreover, it has been pointed out to no end in this thread that the goss desire that Messianics seem to have in copycating the Jews and Judaism. It has been pointed out that this copycating is offensive to Jews. It has been pointed out that most Messinaics don't even have a clue what the meaning is behind what they coycat. It has been sufficiently pointed out that Gentiles assume the whole of the mitzvot are intended for them to follow, and how this is incorrect. While ignoring portions of the "law" that teach the Gentile how to live, they pretend they are Jewish and twist everything to fit as if they too are Jews. Messianism doesn't properly divide the mitzvot, showing where some laws apply to Jews and some to Gentiles. They assume (and teach) it all should be carried out by Gentiles.

In fact, it has been argued sufficiently that this is wrong and no one on the Messianic side of the coin has clearly argued anything to the contrary. Every point that is made is only answered with a bunch of whining.

They want to walk around and look like Jews. They want to use titles (ie: Rabbi) without meeting the requirements for said titles. They want to speak the language of the Jew but don't bother to learn what it means (ie: They use "Brit Chadasha" or "Yeshua" but don't read Hebrew or Aramaic... they just like the Hebrewfied terminology).

Is there somewhere in the Torah that says we must all speak to HaShem like Contra or anyone else?

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No, but Gentiles pretend they are Jews and follow the mitzvot that the Jews are intended to follow. And they condemn the Christians, like Contra, who use Latin/Greek/Roman terms. They insist Yeshua/Y'shua/Yahushah/Yeshu/Yahoshua/etc/etc/ect is the proper term (they can't even agree on that!). All of this, coming from of course, people who aren't even native in the Hebrew/Aramaic tongue! While creating some fascimilie to the name of their Messiah, they look down on anyone who doesn't adhere to their twisted interpretations.

But why is it so important for me or someone else to use His Greek or actually His hybrid name?

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No one cares. That is until Messianism begins demonizing the Grecko/Roman expession of your faith.

If you do it because it is your comfortable tongue or whatever- I say go for it.

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But we all know that's not the case... sadly.

ChavaK said:

And, according to G-d, what would be breaking the sabbath?

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What does He require of thee... He stated what to Moses. Now I know where you are going with this.. because the Jews have had centuries of defining it. But.... we have a gift from Yeshua that is the Holy Spirit to teach us moment by moment. ... so while the traditions fencing in the sabbath are good for the Jews.. it is not for the gentiles. What is for the gentiles is the basics... and in a more liberal sense because we have to have the freedom to follow Him on instances.

For example, you welcome the shabbat with the lighting of two candles and the blessing... etc. IT is beautiful and has its place. But it is not a necessity nor am I obligated to follow it... because it is not the basics laid out in scripture.

ON the matter of the sabbath itself... keeping it holy... which is what I believe is the most important part of the commandment. .. This is something that is purely between God and myself on how that is accomplished. God is the only one who know what is Holy.

I have been in His Holy Presence and without His Presence, even your shabbat is not Holy. I believe it must start in the heart and mind of the believer. You think that the formula aka traditions helps, I do not... because they are not between you and God, but between you and your fellow believers. Not bad nor good, just fact.

Does God honor this.... yes, when the mind and heart are in the presence of God. The question should be, do you earnestly seek to be in His Presence every shabbat.

My objection to comments that the gentiles shouldn't keep the shabbat is that if you are talking about setting the shabbat aside for focus on Him as He commanded us to do, then that is wrong. If you are on the other hand, asking us not to imitate the Jewish traditions of worship on that day.. I have not problem with that.

simchat_torah said:

FAR more than "on occasion". In fact, it has been incessently preached on this very forum.Bingo.Its not a big hairy deal... but Messianics make it one. They demand that anything Grecko/Roman MUST be influenced by paganism. They condemn anyone who uses Grecko/Roman language and insist on copycating the Jewish traditions.

Moreover, it has been pointed out to no end in this thread that the goss desire that Messianics seem to have in copycating the Jews and Judaism. It has been pointed out that this copycating is offensive to Jews. It has been pointed out that most Messinaics don't even have a clue what the meaning is behind what they coycat. It has been sufficiently pointed out that Gentiles assume the whole of the mitzvot are intended for them to follow, and how this is incorrect. While ignoring portions of the "law" that teach the Gentile how to live, they pretend they are Jewish and twist everything to fit as if they too are Jews. Messianism doesn't properly divide the mitzvot, showing where some laws apply to Jews and some to Gentiles. They assume (and teach) it all should be carried out by Gentiles.

In fact, it has been argued sufficiently that this is wrong and no one on the Messianic side of the coin has clearly argued anything to the contrary. Every point that is made is only answered with a bunch of whining.

They want to walk around and look like Jews. They want to use titles (ie: Rabbi) without meeting the requirements for said titles. They want to speak the language of the Jew but don't bother to learn what it means (ie: They use "Brit Chadasha" or "Yeshua" but don't read Hebrew or Aramaic... they just like the Hebrewfied terminology). No, but Gentiles pretend they are Jews and follow the mitzvot that the Jews are intended to follow. And they condemn the Christians, like Contra, who use Latin/Greek/Roman terms. They insist Yeshua/Y'shua/Yahushah/Yeshu/Yahoshua/etc/etc/ect is the proper term (they can't even agree on that!). All of this, coming from of course, people who aren't even native in the Hebrew/Aramaic tongue! While creating some fascimilie to the name of their Messiah, they look down on anyone who doesn't adhere to their twisted interpretations.
No one cares. That is until Messianism begins demonizing the Grecko/Roman expession of your faith.

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Sorry Simchat but it sounds like an awful lot of whining here.
"They do this and they do that and ...
You see Simchat you don't even believe in Yeshua so you have no idea. It's like you are walking into someone's familyroom of someone you don't know (or if you are like some others on this forum walking into an old girlfriend's house who you now despise) and joining into the family meeting.
These are indeed issues that the Messianic community needs to address. But you whether you like it or not as a Jew do not hold the final word. Nor do Jews and only Jews have exclusive rights to Hebraic worship expression.
One who calls themselves a Messianic has identified with their Messiah who happens for most on this forum to be Yeshua (or Jesus if that makes you happy). He (whether you believe it or not) is Jewish and they (I included) choose to identify with Him who is a Jew in Jewish terms and with Jewish expression. And there are some of us here (I included) who are Jewish by birth and want to continue being Jews in all it's "glory". Those who are Gentile hold to the fact that they have been grafted into the olive tree and are now included in the common wealth of Israel.
Ha us Messianics can really identify with Israel as in her present situation. A small group of people surrounded by others who only want her demise or at the least for her to shut up and assimilate and it's always her fault no matter what she does or doesn't do.

You see Simchat you don't even believe in Yeshua so you have no idea. It's like you are walking into someone's family room of someone you don't know and joining into the family meeting.

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But Simchat does have an idea-he was a Messianic for many years.
So he does know the "family" and it's "family room"

Like I mentioned then he is like the one going back to the old girlfriend's house. Since he is no longer a part of it and in fact no longer likes the girlfriend or her family it "ain't no his biznuz anymore". All he can do now is tear down not repair.
I think this subject can only be argued by those who have a vested interest in it.

We all agree that there are issues in the Messianic movement that must be dealt with. There is miscommunication and ignorance involved which have been brought out for all to see. The laundry has indeed been pulled out for all to see so to speak.
But this is one of those things I can get pretty lets say ruffled about because it's the whole he who lives in glass houses thing. We've all gone round and round as to who's a Jew and who aint. Who can touch and who can't. And frankly none of us has the authority to tell anyone anything but HaShem Himself. We can all give our best opinions but that's all.
A Gentile who has embraced Messiah as a Jew and has been grafted into the common wealth of Israel feels he has been adopted into the Family. Which gives him the right to sit in the family room. It's our job to teach him what is holy and how to handle the antiques.

My objection to comments that the gentiles shouldn't keep the shabbat is that if you are talking about setting the shabbat aside for focus on Him as He commanded us to do, then that is wrong. If you are on the other hand, asking us not to imitate the Jewish traditions of worship on that day.. I have not problem with that.

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This is what I was getting at- that of course gentiles may keep the sabbath; however
they should not rely upon nor imitate Jewish traditions and interpretations to do so.

Just a thought -
When Ruth was brought into Israel thru Boaz was she not allowed into the "family room"? How about Rahov when she married Salmon?

.... yeah.. and look what they are to teach the other nations as a holy nation...

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Numbers 15:16
One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Numbers 15:29
Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

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Not quite....these are specific commandments that the gentiles living amongst the Jews in the land of Israel were to follow. They are not commanded to follow all
of Torah. Nor do they need to follow these laws unless they are living amongsth
the "Children of Israel", in the Land of Israel.

Numbers 15: 1-6 begins with "The L-rd spokd to Moses, saying: Speak to the
Children of Israel" indicating these commandments are for Jews. In verse 14
it states that a stranger living amongst the children of Israel MAY (but is not
obligated) to follow the same laws as Jews if he chooses
to offer a fire offering.

Same thing with Numbers 15: 17-29
It also begins with "The L-rd spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the children of Israel"
Only when it gets to verse 29 does it say that gentiles are obligated to follow the
"law of the land" when atoning for an inadvertent sin.

Again, Lev 24: 15-22 begins with "To the Children of Israel" and in verse 22 gentiles
are brought under the law of blasphemy, as well as couple of civil laws.

These do not mean Gentiles are obligated to follow the law, and they certainly
are not obligated to follow them when not living amongst the Children of Israel
in the Land of Israel.

If Gentiles were to follow ALL Torah law, why are Jews specifically allowed to give or
sell non-kosher meat to the non-Jews living amongst them, and to non-Jewish
foreigners?

Deut: 14:21

"You shall not eat any carcass. You may give it to the stranger who is in
your cities, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner".

As far as using Hebrew terms because it's the mother tongue, that's a silly assertion. No one here in this thread has Hebrew as their mother tongue, and the number of Messianics for whom that is the case is extremely minute.

Simchat Torah offered a well reasoned argument that has not yet been refuted.

If you guys want to traipse around throwing random Hebrew words and phrases in your sentences, I don't see the real problem other than its inherent silliness. I, and almost every other Jew, do have a problem with Gentiles pretending to be Jews. It happens a lot, and even on these boards.

It's like some of you think being a Jew is like being a member of the country club.

anisavta said:

Like I mentioned then he is like the one going back to the old girlfriend's house. Since he is no longer a part of it and in fact no longer likes the girlfriend or her family it "ain't no his biznuz anymore". All he can do now is tear down not repair.

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This too applies to Jews who become Christians/Messianics.
They are all about ant-"rabbinics", to the extreme some
come across as borderline anti-semitic.

I think that is, unfortunately a common response by people.
You know what they say about ex-smokers.

I think this subject can only be argued by those who have a vested interest in it.

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And Judaism should only be discussed and argued by those who
have a vested interest in it-Jewish Jews.

anisavta said:

Just a thought -
When Ruth was brought into Israel thru Boaz was she not allowed into the "family room"?

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We believe Ruth was a convert, in which case we would make
sure she had a seat in the most comfortable barcolounger in
the family room.

You see Simchat you don't even believe in Yeshua so you have no idea.

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I was a Messianic for nearly a decade, lead a Messianic group, attended more Messianic congregations than I can count, was personal friends with multiple "Rabbis" who authored books, and attended a Messianic Yeshivah. I think I have a little authority on the subject thank you very much.

We all agree that there are issues in the Messianic movement that must be dealt with.

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Really? Because so far you've denied every single one of them.

All he can do now is tear down not repair.

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I know you'd love to sweep me under the rug, but this little tagline you've written doesn't hold weight. There are few Messianics I respect thse days because we've had open and honest discussion on these very topics.

Which gives him the right to sit in the family room.

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Ok, but he doesn't have to copycat the others in the room, that's the point. No one denies you coming in.

I think this subject can only be argued by those who have a vested interest in it.

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I actually do have a vested interest. I have family members who are Messianics. I have friends who are Messianics. I helped propogate these very ideas some years ago, and now I have an obliged interest in restoring what is right.

Just a thought -
When Ruth was brought into Israel thru Boaz was she not allowed into the "family room"? How about Rahov when she married Salmon?

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Ruth converted. You don't accept Judaism, no you follow Christianity.

Big difference.

Not quite....these are specific commandments that the gentiles living amongst the Jews in the land of Israel were to follow. They are not commanded to follow all
of Torah.

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Right on Chavak. The rest of your post is eloquently stated. I hate when someone takes a razor blade and cuts out a single line from a text. As if removing it from its context is supposed to justify something?

It's like some of you think being a Jew is like being a member of the country club.

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A country club where you get burned, stoned, gassed, and attacked. Who would really want to join that club anyway? lol...