R. Catholic vs protestant differences after 500 yrs past reformation

[Jesusthekingofking]

What's the current state of the Rome church now? I read the document btw the reformer and the pope during the dawn of the Reformation, I favor the protestant side, which they argue faith is necessary for salvation, not by work. Today I clicked somewhere to read just out of curiosity:

IN BRIEF

176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.

177 "To believe" has thus a twofold reference: to the person, and to the truth: to the truth, by trust in the person who bears witness to it.

178 We must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

180 "Believing" is a human act, conscious and free, corresponding to the dignity of the human person.

181 "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

182 We believe all "that which is contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church proposes for belief as divinely revealed" (Paul VI, CPG § 20).

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).

184 "Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come" (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2).

it seems I can pretty much agree in brief. Being a protestant for nearly a decade I don't converse or fellowship with the saints in the RC. Just curious what has been reformed within the RC all these while

 

[Lost4words]

Even satan has faith in God

 

[Dave L]

What's the current state of the Rome church now? I read the document btw the reformer and the pope during the dawn of the Reformation, I favor the protestant side, which they argue faith is necessary for salvation, not by work. Today I clicked somewhere to read just out of curiosity:

IN BRIEF

176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.

177 "To believe" has thus a twofold reference: to the person, and to the truth: to the truth, by trust in the person who bears witness to it.

178 We must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

180 "Believing" is a human act, conscious and free, corresponding to the dignity of the human person.

181 "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

182 We believe all "that which is contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church proposes for belief as divinely revealed" (Paul VI, CPG § 20).

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).

184 "Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come" (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2).

it seems I can pretty much agree in brief. Being a protestant for nearly a decade I don't converse or fellowship with the saints in the RC. Just curious what has been reformed within the RC all these while

Believing is not a human act. It comes from experiencing something that causes you to believe. We don't need to choose to believe that we are sitting in a chair. Experience tells us we are.

 

[BobRyan]

What's the current state of the Rome church now? I read the document btw the reformer and the pope during the dawn of the Reformation, I favor the protestant side, which they argue faith is necessary for salvation, not by work. Today I clicked somewhere to read just out of curiosity:

IN BRIEF

176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.

177 "To believe" has thus a twofold reference: to the person, and to the truth: to the truth, by trust in the person who bears witness to it.

178 We must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

180 "Believing" is a human act, conscious and free, corresponding to the dignity of the human person.

181 "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

182 We believe all "that which is contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church proposes for belief as divinely revealed" (Paul VI, CPG § 20).

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).

184 "Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come" (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2).

it seems I can pretty much agree in brief. Being a protestant for nearly a decade I don't converse or fellowship with the saints in the RC. Just curious what has been reformed within the RC all these while

The Catholic doctrine of infalliblity is not just applied to the Pope making statements supposedly "ex cathedra" but also to ecumenical councils. Which means it is very difficult for them to implement reforms once the system incorporates a certain belief over time.

 

[tampasteve]

What's the current state of the Rome church now? I read the document btw the reformer and the pope during the dawn of the Reformation, I favor the protestant side, which they argue faith is necessary for salvation, not by work. Today I clicked somewhere to read just out of curiosity:

IN BRIEF

176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.

177 "To believe" has thus a twofold reference: to the person, and to the truth: to the truth, by trust in the person who bears witness to it.

178 We must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

180 "Believing" is a human act, conscious and free, corresponding to the dignity of the human person.

181 "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

182 We believe all "that which is contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church proposes for belief as divinely revealed" (Paul VI, CPG § 20).

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).

184 "Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come" (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2).

it seems I can pretty much agree in brief. Being a protestant for nearly a decade I don't converse or fellowship with the saints in the RC. Just curious what has been reformed within the RC all these while

That looks like it is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is a great book to keep and reference, it is the "official" teachings of the church.

In brief, a lot has changed since the Reformation. The church of today is not the same as the church in the 1500s. However, the "faith on the ground" varies wildly from pious individuals, to animist cults wearing the masquerade of the Church. The Curia does little to stamp out popular pagan religion in the church, and that is a problem.

But many of the original issues that the Reformers dealt with are not really issues any longer, at least officially.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

Believing is not a human act. It comes from experiencing something that causes you to believe. We don't need to choose to believe that we are sitting in a chair. Experience tells us we are.

Read the previous item, it state faith is the gift of God

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

That looks like it is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is a great book to keep and reference, it is the "official" teachings of the church.

In brief, a lot has changed since the Reformation. The church of today is not the same as the church in the 1500s. However, the "faith on the ground" varies wildly from pious individuals, to animist cults wearing the masquerade of the Church. The Curia does little to stamp out popular pagan religion in the church, and that is a problem.

But many of the original issues that the Reformers dealt with are not really issues any longer, at least officially.

Yea I read the reformation conversation, the pope doesn't seem have read the bible when he says work is needed to be saved, so now those issues are gone, what's the new issue then?

 

[Dave L]

Read the previous item, it state faith is the gift of God

How can it be if you choose to have it? True faith is the fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before true faith comes alive.

 

[pescador]

Even satan has faith in God

Where does it say that??

 

[com7fy8]

I read the document btw the reformer and the pope during the dawn of the Reformation, I favor the protestant side, which they argue faith is necessary for salvation, not by work.

Before comparing religious groups, I might first see what the Bible says about faith. Then see if a certain group says these things which are in God's word. It is possible that a group says none of the things which God's word says. In such a case, who cares how that group compares to anyone??

Our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love" > Galatians 5:6. Does a group, then, in their official doctrinal statement say faith works by means of God's love in us (note Romans 5:5)?

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6) Who says faith is about seeking God diligently and pleasing Him?

About people who have become Christians, Paul says "we who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12. So, I would say faith includes not only believing the report that there is Jesus and all He has done, but we have come to trust in Him.

@Jesusthekingofking > your list in Post #1 does not seem to say any of these items which I have offered from the Bible.

Even satan has faith in God

Where does it say that??

Lost for Words may not have the words for what Lost for Words means. But possibly James 2:19 says what Lost for Words means >

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe---and tremble!" (James 2:19)

So, does this mean that belief in ideas and reports is not what the Bible means by necessary faith?

Hebrews 11:1 says,

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

I never have heard anyone say that my believing something is evidence that it is true! And a report, of itself, might not be considered evidence. So, my opinion is faith is what God uses in a person to prove Himself to him or her. Possibly it is our contact and connection (1 Corinthians 6:17) with the Holy Spirit so we come to experience there is God and discover how we do well to seek Him in His love and no longer trust in our own efforts and ways. Connection with God, I would think, is evidence that God is, so we believe because of how God has proven Himself to us, within us. And this connection has us seeking Him for Himself, in His love . . . so our faith-connection is working by means of His love.

Then I can see if a group officially teaches what I get through God's word . . . before I even consider comparing the group to someone else's group Both sides of an argument can be wrong; but also each group might have a part to contribute. But I find how God's word can give us so much more than what people claim; and He brings our attention to so much better than just comparing people's ideas.

 

[zippy2006]

Just curious what has been reformed within the RC all these while

On what topic?

What's the current state of the Rome church now? I read the document btw the reformer and the pope during the dawn of the Reformation, I favor the protestant side, which they argue faith is necessary for salvation, not by work.

Here is what the Catholic Church said at the Council of Trent in Session VI, Chapter VIII, in the year 1547:

"...we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification."
​

The Catholic Church has never said that faith is not necessary for salvation, nor has She said that justification can be merited, either by faith or by works.

 

[Lost4words]

Where does it say that??

So, satan doesnt believe in God then?

 

[Valletta]

it seems I can pretty much agree in brief. Being a protestant for nearly a decade I don't converse or fellowship with the saints in the RC. Just curious what has been reformed within the RC all these while

The Bible is clear:

James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
James 2:26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

On what topic?



Here is what the Catholic Church said at the Council of Trent in Session VI, Chapter VIII, in the year 1547:

"...we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification."
​

The Catholic Church has never said that faith is not necessary for salvation, nor has She said that justification can be merited, either by faith or by works.

Wow this is Catholic reformation? Because in 1517 their conversion with Luther they seems don't read the bible, they misquoted verses to support their false position. So things are back to the correct path now? But why protestant don't become Catholic?

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

Before comparing religious groups, I might first see what the Bible says about faith. Then see if a certain group says these things which are in God's word. It is possible that a group says none of the things which God's word says. In such a case, who cares how that group compares to anyone??

Our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love" > Galatians 5:6. Does a group, then, in their official doctrinal statement say faith works by means of God's love in us (note Romans 5:5)?

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6) Who says faith is about seeking God diligently and pleasing Him?

About people who have become Christians, Paul says "we who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12. So, I would say faith includes not only believing the report that there is Jesus and all He has done, but we have come to trust in Him.

@Jesusthekingofking > your list in Post #1 does not seem to say any of these items which I have offered from the Bible.

Lost for Words may not have the words for what Lost for Words means. But possibly James 2:19 says what Lost for Words means >

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe---and tremble!" (James 2:19)

So, does this mean that belief in ideas and reports is not what the Bible means by necessary faith?

Hebrews 11:1 says,

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

I never have heard anyone say that my believing something is evidence that it is true! And a report, of itself, might not be considered evidence. So, my opinion is faith is what God uses in a person to prove Himself to him or her. Possibly it is our contact and connection (1 Corinthians 6:17) with the Holy Spirit so we come to experience there is God and discover how we do well to seek Him in His love and no longer trust in our own efforts and ways. Connection with God, I would think, is evidence that God is, so we believe because of how God has proven Himself to us, within us. And this connection has us seeking Him for Himself, in His love . . . so our faith-connection is working by means of His love.

Then I can see if a group officially teaches what I get through God's word . . . before I even consider comparing the group to someone else's group Both sides of an argument can be wrong; but also each group might have a part to contribute. But I find how God's word can give us so much more than what people claim; and He brings our attention to so much better than just comparing people's ideas.

Sounds like you're acusing me making a comparison? I don't act as a judge to see who have the likeness of Christ as his children here, I'm here to find how doctrinal differences.

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

That looks like it is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is a great book to keep and reference, it is the "official" teachings of the church.

In brief, a lot has changed since the Reformation. The church of today is not the same as the church in the 1500s. However, the "faith on the ground" varies wildly from pious individuals, to animist cults wearing the masquerade of the Church. The Curia does little to stamp out popular pagan religion in the church, and that is a problem.

But many of the original issues that the Reformers dealt with are not really issues any longer, at least officially.

Good to know they are reforming. But do you think things are better in protestant circles? But isn't it Catholic still believe in pulgatory?

 

[Valletta]

Good to know they are reforming. But do you think things are better in protestant circles? But isn't it Catholic still believe in pulgatory?

Yes, absolutely, we believe the Bible is the Word of God and thus we believe nothing unclean can enter Heaven and refer to the purification and cleansing fire spoken of in the Bible as "purgatory."

 

[Valletta]

Wow this is Catholic reformation? Because in 1517 their conversion with Luther they seems don't read the bible, they misquoted verses to support their false position. So things are back to the correct path now? But why protestant don't become Catholic?

Luther was able to get some, but not all of the books he wanted dropped from the Protestant version of the Bible, for example, Revelation is still in Protestant Bibles today. Luther was also unsuccessful in adding the word "alone" next to "faith."

 

[Albion]

Read the previous item, it state faith is the gift of God

Yes, that is the standard view of Protestants.

And Justification by Faith is still the basic Protestant belief, while Faith + Works remains the basic view of the Roman Catholic Church.

There are more ideas contained somewhere or other in the material you gave us, so if you want to deal with particular ones, please do point them out for us.

 

[tampasteve]

Good to know they are reforming. But do you think things are better in protestant circles?

Better in what regard? In controlling Pagan influences? Mostly, but "protestant" is such a umbrella term that it varies. Overall "real" denominations like Bapists, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. are better, but there are also a host of "protestant" denominations that do not. Some of the very liberal denominations flirt with it, even in the USA. See "Her Church" in San Francisco, they have a convoluted tie to the ELCA Lutheran church and teach outright heresy.

But isn't it Catholic still believe in purgatory?

Yes, Catholics do. There is some scripture that supports the idea, as well as some 1st Century Jewish beliefs, but overall protestants do not accept the teaching. In personal belief there are a number that do, however.