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wake up call

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Arthra said:
Qur'an was revealed over several years through Prophet Muhammad



There were also secretaries who also wrote the Revealed Word on whatever they had available and these eventually were gathered together with the oral tradition and were compiled as the Qur'an we have today.

- Art
Do you know that some of the scribes or what you called "Secretaries" made their own verses and incporporated them in the "Quran" that you have today!!! and with the approval of Muhammad himself ? ! , which led them to abandon "Islam" as they have exposed the claim of "revelation" to be a mere lie?

let me give you an example:Abdullah ibn Sad ibn Abi Sarh , one of the writters of the so called "Revelation" would put his own words in the Quran,

let's see what the Quran says
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِباً أَوْ قَالَ أُوحِيَ إِلَيَّ وَلَمْ يُوحَ إِلَيْهِ شَيْءٌ وَمَنْ قَالَ سَأُنْزِلُ مِثْلَ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذِ الظَّالِمُونَ فِي غَمَرَاتِ الْمَوْتِ وَالْمَلائِكَةُ بَاسِطُو أَيْدِيهِمْ أَخْرِجُوا أَنْفُسَكُمُ الْيَوْمَ تُجْزَوْنَ عَذَابَ الْهُونِ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ غَيْرَ الْحَقِّ وَكُنْتُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِهِ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (93)
6: 93. And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against ALLAH, or says, `It has been revealed to me,' while nothing has been revealed to him; and who says, `I will sent down the like of that which ALLAH has sent down ?' And if thou couldst only see, when the wrongdoers are in the agonies of death, and the angels stretch forth their hands, saying, `Yield up your souls. This day shall you be awarded the punishment of disgrace because of that which you spoke against ALLAH falsely and because you turned away from HIS Signs with disdain.'

let us read the interpretation of this verse from Qurtoby:

&#1602;&#1608;&#1604;&#1607; &#1578;&#1593;&#1575;&#1604;&#1609;: "&#1608;&#1605;&#1606; &#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1587;&#1571;&#1606;&#1586;&#1604; &#1605;&#1579;&#1604; &#1605;&#1575; &#1571;&#1606;&#1586;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;" "&#1605;&#1606;" &#1601;&#1610; &#1605;&#1608;&#1590;&#1593; &#1582;&#1601;&#1590;&#1563; &#1571;&#1610; &#1608;&#1605;&#1606; &#1571;&#1592;&#1604;&#1605; &#1605;&#1605;&#1606; &#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1587;&#1571;&#1606;&#1586;&#1604;&#1548; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1585;&#1575;&#1583; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1571;&#1576;&#1610; &#1587;&#1585;&#1581; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1610;&#1603;&#1578;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1608;&#1581;&#1610; &#1604;&#1585;&#1587;&#1608;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1608;&#1604;&#1581;&#1602; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1610;&#1606;. &#1608;&#1587;&#1576;&#1576; &#1584;&#1604;&#1603; &#1601;&#1610;&#1605;&#1575; &#1584;&#1603;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1601;&#1587;&#1585;&#1608;&#1606; &#1571;&#1606;&#1607; &#1604;&#1605;&#1575; &#1606;&#1586;&#1604;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1570;&#1610;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1610; &#1601;&#1610; "&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;&#1606;": "&#1608;&#1604;&#1602;&#1583; &#1582;&#1604;&#1602;&#1606;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1606;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1606; &#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1604;&#1577; &#1605;&#1606; &#1591;&#1610;&#1606;" [&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;&#1606;:12] &#1583;&#1593;&#1575;&#1607; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1576;&#1610; &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605; &#1601;&#1571;&#1605;&#1604;&#1575;&#1607;&#1575; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607;&#1563; &#1601;&#1604;&#1605;&#1575; &#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1607;&#1609; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1602;&#1608;&#1604;&#1607; "&#1579;&#1605; &#1571;&#1606;&#1588;&#1571;&#1606;&#1575;&#1607; &#1582;&#1604;&#1602;&#1575; &#1570;&#1582;&#1585;" [&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;&#1606;: 14] &#1593;&#1580;&#1576; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1601;&#1610; &#1578;&#1601;&#1589;&#1610;&#1604; &#1582;&#1604;&#1602; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1606;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606; &#1601;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604;: "&#1578;&#1576;&#1575;&#1585;&#1603; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1571;&#1581;&#1587;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1610;&#1606;" [&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;&#1606;: 14]. &#1601;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1585;&#1587;&#1608;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605;: (&#1608;&#1607;&#1603;&#1584;&#1575; &#1571;&#1606;&#1586;&#1604;&#1578; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;) &#1601;&#1588;&#1603; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1581;&#1610;&#1606;&#1574;&#1584; &#1608;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604;: &#1604;&#1574;&#1606; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1589;&#1575;&#1583;&#1602;&#1575; &#1604;&#1602;&#1583; &#1571;&#1608;&#1581;&#1610; &#1573;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607;&#1548; &#1608;&#1604;&#1574;&#1606; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1603;&#1575;&#1584;&#1576;&#1575; &#1604;&#1602;&#1583; &#1602;&#1604;&#1578; &#1603;&#1605;&#1575; &#1602;&#1575;&#1604;< &#1601;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1593;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1608;&#1604;&#1581;&#1602; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1610;&#1606;&#1548;
(This verse) was in regard to Abdallah Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write the 'revelation" to the messanger of Allah PBUH, then he abandoned Islam and joined the mushrikin " Polythiests" and the reason as recorded by the commentators is that when the aya in the surah of " Al Mumenoun (Surah 23:12) "He began the creation of man from clay" was revealed, the messanger of Allah called him and dictated it to him, and when he came to "and then We brought it forth as another creation" 23:14, Abdallah was amazed with the creation of Allah and said "So Blessed is Allah, the Best of creators" so the messanger of Allah (Muhammad) PBUH said " and so it was reveald to me, so then Abdallah doubted and said, If Muhammad was truthful that it was revealed to him, but if he is a liar, I said what he said, then he left Islam and joined the Mushrikin.


wow.... what a declaration.... Abdallah fortells the so called "revelation" !!!! and Muhammad approves of it !!

so what happened to Abdallah?
Muhammad ordered him killed as we can see in
In Sunan Abu Dawud, the book of Hudud(Prescribed punishments) , and chapter of punishment of the apostates
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&#1587;&#1606;&#1606; &#1571;&#1576;&#1610; &#1583;&#1575;&#1608;&#1583; &#1548; &#1603;&#1578;&#1575;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1583;&#1608;&#1583; &#1548; &#1576;&#1575;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1603;&#1605; &#1601;&#1610;&#1605;&#1606; &#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583;


abdallah was not the only one to expose Muhammad's claim,

others such as &#1587;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1585;&#1576; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1591;&#1604;

Said Ibn Harb Abdallah Ibn Khatl who would change what Muhammad says, then re-reads it back to Muhammad with "His own version, i.e Said's version, and Muhammad would agree to it, which made Said realize that Muhammad is nothing but a liar, so he left Islam as well
and went back to his tribe saying:
&#1601;&#1585;&#1580;&#1593; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1602;&#1585;&#1610;&#1588; &#1601;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604;: &#1604;&#1610;&#1587; &#1570;&#1605;&#1585;&#1607; &#1576;&#1588;&#1610;&#1569; &#1603;&#1606;&#1578; &#1570;&#1582;&#1584; &#1576;&#1607;&#1548; &#1601;&#1610;&#1606;&#1589;&#1585;&#1601; &#1601;&#1604;&#1605; &#1610;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1548; &#1601;&#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1571;&#1581;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1585;&#1576;&#1593;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610;&#1606; &#1604;&#1605; &#1610;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1576;&#1610; &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605;.
&#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1606;&#1579;&#1608;&#1585; &#1604;&#1604;&#1587;&#1610;&#1608;&#1591;&#1610; &#1604;&#1587;&#1608;&#1585;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1604;&#1583; 1 - 10
he was also ordered killed !!!
&#1608;&#1571;&#1582;&#1585;&#1580; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1605;&#1610;&#1583; &#1593;&#1606; &#1587;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1580;&#1576;&#1610;&#1585; &#1585;&#1590;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1606;&#1607; &#1602;&#1575;&#1604;: &#1604;&#1605;&#1575; &#1601;&#1578;&#1581; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1576;&#1610; &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1603;&#1593;&#1576;&#1577; &#1571;&#1582;&#1584; &#1571;&#1576;&#1608; &#1576;&#1585;&#1586;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605;&#1610; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1587;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1585;&#1576; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1591;&#1604; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606;&#1578; &#1602;&#1585;&#1610;&#1588; &#1578;&#1587;&#1605;&#1610;&#1607; &#1584;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1604;&#1576;&#1610;&#1606;&#1548; &#1601;&#1571;&#1606;&#1586;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; ( &#1605;&#1575; &#1580;&#1593;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1604;&#1585;&#1580;&#1604; &#1605;&#1606; &#1602;&#1604;&#1576;&#1610;&#1606; &#1601;&#1610; &#1580;&#1608;&#1601;&#1607; ) (&#1587;&#1608;&#1585;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1581;&#1586;&#1575;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1570;&#1610;&#1577; 4 ) &#1548; &#1601;&#1602;&#1583;&#1605;&#1607; &#1571;&#1576;&#1608; &#1576;&#1585;&#1586;&#1577; &#1601;&#1590;&#1585;&#1576;&#1578; &#1593;&#1606;&#1602;&#1607; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1605;&#1578;&#1593;&#1604;&#1602; &#1576;&#1571;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1603;&#1593;&#1576;&#1577;&#1548;

where?
he was (Beheaded) at the Kaaba (in Mecca) while taking refuge at its curtains" !!!
 
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new_manII

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Hello Art,
Thanks for the post
NM:
and let's assume that "quran" meaning reciting... so what does this verse mean "those are the verses of the Book
[the Bible] and clear recitation!!!"
does it make any sence?

Reply:
Yes, to me it makes sense...Prophet Muhammad recited what He received and others recorded it and recited it in turn...
Good, Muhmad received recitation of what? of the Bible? so the Quran is a clear recitation of the bible? that what the verse means if quran means recitation.

NM:
Quran says that Quran explaination is some for Allah to do...

Reply:
This doesn't make sense to me: "Quran explaination is some for Allah to do..."
I have no idea what that means.
Sorry, i didn't notice that the word *thing*. so the statment should've been "Quran explaination is some thing for Allah to do..." as it stated in the verse in Suran 3:7 ... None knoweth its explanation save Allah...

NM:
in Suran 3:7 ... None knoweth its explanation save Allah...
so it's logical to say that it's on Allah to collect it [save it] and explain it...
and in this case, the first verse will make sence too "these are the verses of the Book and plain explaination" right?
so what do you say?

My Reply:
The meanings of Revealed Scripture are beyond any one explanation... and the Source of Revelation or God ...Allah is where we turn in humble prayer and submission for "explanation".
Revelation from God has been continuous from the earliest times and we Baha'is believe it is progressive
Thanks for telling me about Bahai' faith. but this is not what I am asking.
You said that The meanings of Revealed Scripture are beyond any one explanation... so what's the use of the *revealed scriptures* then?? if they are not clear and beyoun anyone's explanation and understanding, so how can any one follow them??

thanks for your posts my friend.
stay with us...

nmII
 
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new_manII

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Hello Mssy
Yes it makes all sense....I dont see anything that is tricky to understand...
mmm, ok.
so the Quran is a clear recitation of the verses of the Bible?
or it's a clear recitation of the recitation??
Have you ever heard of Al Walid bin Al-Mughirah Al-Makhzumi ??
Have you ever read what the Quran recorded about what the Arabs said about it? didn't they say it's legends of the parents? didn't they say that Muhmad is a mad man...etc?
so why do you take only half of the truth?
or you're applying the "lie in three" rule here?
wink.gif


have fun
nmII
 
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Arthra

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New man:

Some time ago i found an excellent review of Abdallah ibn Sad ibn abu Sarh. It appears he wavered from Islam and returned to the idolators in Mecca...to placate them he concocted that he himself had made up various additions to the Revelation of God:

One source has the following:

"He afterwards left for al Madinah and returned to Makkah and said to the Kuraish, "I bring that which is just as good as what Muhammad bought". Muhammed used to dictate to him "the unjust", and he would write "the unbelievers", and he dictated to him "the Listener, the Omniscient" and he would write "the Pardoner, the Merciful" and so forth. Then Allah revealed to the Prophet the following: "Who is more wicked than he who makes up lies about God, or who says 'It was revealed to me', when nothing has been revealed to him, and he who says, 'I will cause to come down a revelation like what God has sent down'(6:93)."

Later abu Sahr repented and returned to the Cause of Islam and was forgiven his lapse... He was later appointed Governor of Egypt by the Caliph and was a brilliant strategist.

See the following:

'Abd Allah ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Sarh
*Encyclopædia Britannica Article

" Governor of Upper (southern) Egypt for the Muslim caliphate during the reign of 'Uthman (644–656) and the cofounder, with the future caliph Mu'awiyah I, of the first Muslim navy, which seized Cyprus (647–649), Rhodes, and Cos (Dodecanese Islands) and defeated a Byzantine fleet off Alexandria in 652. He shared in the direction of the Muslim fleet that defeated the Byzantine navy..."

Your remark that

"Good, Muhmad received recitation of what? of the Bible? so the Quran is a clear recitation of the bible? that what the verse means if quran means recitation."

Clearly indicates your own bias .... The Bible wasn't available in Arabic until centuries later. Read the following from the Jewish Encyclopaedia:

"It is impossible to tell at how early a time the Jews commenced to translate the Bible into Arabic. After the early victories of the Mohammedans, Arabic civilization and Arabic surroundings brought the Jews into very close connection with the Arabic language. Even where Hebrew was still kept up, the Hebrew alphabet must at times have gone out of fashion; for there exist some Karaite manuscripts of the tenth century, giving the Hebrew text in Arabic characters and with the letters used as vowel-signs (R. Hörning, "British Museum Karaite MSS." London, 1889; Margoliouth, "Cat. Hebr. and Samaritan MSS. Brit. Mus." i., Nos. 103, 104)."

Source:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1035&letter=B

What Prophet Muhammad received was from Allah and it is the recitation received from God. The Bible (The Gospel, Torah and David's Psalms) also is respected as having a Divine Origin in the Qur'an.

- Art
 
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new_manII

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Hello Art,
thanks for your post.
I won't comment on " 'Abd Allah ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Sarh" I will leave that to "Wake up"...

Your remark that
"Good, Muhmad received recitation of what? of the Bible? so the Quran is a clear recitation of the bible? that what the verse means if quran means recitation."
Clearly indicates your own bias .... The Bible wasn't available in Arabic until centuries later.
mmm, ok my friend, let's see...
1- What interpreters said about Surah 15:1
Al Tabari
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These are the verses of the books before Quran. that is the Injeel [New Testment] and Torah [Old Testment]
So what do you say?

2- If there was any Arabic Bible at the time of Muhmd or not...
do you know Waraqa Ebn Nofal? Muhmd's wife's cousin?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
... Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Hebrew Gospel as much as Allah wished him to write. ... But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 478:
...Khadija then took him to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija's paternal uncle. Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write.
Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0301:
Khadija then took him to Waraqa b. Naufal b. Asad b. 'Abd al-'Uzza, and he was the son of Khadija's uncle, i. e., the brother of her father. And he was the man who had embraced Christianity in the Days of Ignorance (i. e. before Islam) and he used to write books in Arabic and, wrote Injil (Gospel) in Arabic as God willed that he should write.
You know that Muhmd married Khadija when he was 25 years old and the *angle* came to him when he was 40 years old. which means he stayed at least for 15 years with Waraqa and his gospel...

so what do you say?
there was an Arabic Gospel available for Muhmd for 15 years at least to read and know the stories of the Bible...

be well
nmII
 
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Galilee

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new_manII, God bless you ..
if i may just add that waraqa bin naufal wasn't exactly a christian,he was apyounic. those people followed a christian-jewish heresy, they were mostly jews who believed in moses' laws from the OT and then also believed only in the book of matthew from the NT. so he knew much about the torah, and about Jesus.

so that also proves what you said. waraqa knew so much about the life of Jesus and about the torah -the lows of moses-, and the the OT.

i just thought that this point should be cleared to everyone.

peace and love :)
 
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Arthra

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Just a suggestion to my friend "new man" or maybe it is "wake up"?... Your posts of Qur'anic verses are not coming across ... The Arabic script is not handled by most browsers.

Christians have had many theories about the origin of Qur'an. Alleging that Waraqa was the source of Qur'an is a speculation...

A well known Tradition has it this way:

"..The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."

So Waraqa supported Prophet Muhammad much as Simeon recognized Who Jesus was...as recorded in Luke 2:25 and the Doctors of the Law who were astounded by what they heard from the young Jesus also in Luke 2:48.

Divine Revelation builds on what went before... and we have the entire Bible today that shows this... Qur'an in my view is a later chapter of Divine Revelation.

That Prophet Muhammad received direct revelation from God is of course accepting that God would do this...just as in Jeremiah 1:9-10:

"There! I am putting words into your mouth."

You can believe it or not...

- Art
 
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new_manII

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Hello Art,
Just a suggestion to my friend "new man" or maybe it is "wake up"?... Your posts of Qur'anic verses are not coming across ... The Arabic script is not handled by most browsers.
thanks for the notice.
to view arabic text, in Internet Explo. 5+, go to View -> Encoding -> Arabic(Windows)

Christians have had many theories about the origin of Qur'an. Alleging that Waraqa was the source of Qur'an is a speculation...
Sorry Art, but I didn't say *here* that the bible is the source of Quran...
You said that there was no arabic bible available to Muhmd at that time, and I showed you that there was. and it was available for him for more than 15 years before claiming to be a prophet.

So Waraqa supported Prophet Muhammad much as Simeon recognized Who Jesus was...as recorded in Luke 2:25 and the Doctors of the Law who were astounded by what they heard from the young Jesus also in Luke 2:48.
Sorry, but Waraqa didn't support Muhmmd much as Simeon supported Jesus.
Simeon recognized Jesus by the Holy Spirit, is that the case with Waraqa? if so, then He's a prophet according to muslims' beleif, therefore Muhmd is not the only prophet. if not, then it's just a personal opinion....

Waraqa calimed that this *angle* is the one who was sent to all prophets before and was sent to Moses. that makes us sure that Waraqa lied, because God talkes directly to prophets.

Divine Revelation builds on what went before... and we have the entire Bible today that shows this... Qur'an in my view is a later chapter of Divine Revelation.

Art,you can open a new thread about Bahai' faith and I would like to talk about it there to see what Islam added to Chrisitaniy.also, you can post in my thread about *Why Islam?*..
but here, it's about the word Quran.
That Prophet Muhammad received direct revelation from God is of course accepting that God would do this...just as in Jeremiah 1:9-10:
"There! I am putting words into your mouth."
You can believe it or not...
Muhmd didn't recive a direct revelation. according to Muslims, Allah told Gebril the angle, which then went to Muhmd and told him Allah's words.
not like Moses for example, or any of the OT prophets to whom God talked directly by himself with no angles in between...
let's see Jeremiah 1:9, the verse you've mentioned, and see if there was any angle between God and Jeremiah
(Jer 1:9) Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
Is this the case with Muhmd?
___________________________________________
now, let's go back to our main issue.
you said that the word quran means recitation.
andI asked you to explain the verse 15:1 which says "those are the verses of the Book and a clear *quran* "
and showed you that "the Book" here means the Bible...
so, I say that Quran means interpretation or explaination.
you say it's recitation.
so is it a recitation of the Bible, or an interpretation of it?

be well
nmII
 
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crystalpc

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Debate between Answering-Islam's Sam Shamoun and Osama Abdullah on topic of Was Mohamed a prophet. http://abrahamic-faith.com/debates.html As you can see Osama could not stay on topic. As one can see no one can Defend the prophet.
 
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Arthra

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new_manII

Sorry Art, but I didn't say *here* that the bible is the source of Quran...
You said that there was no arabic bible available to Muhmd at that time, and I showed you that there was. and it was available for him for more than 15 years before claiming to be a prophet.

Reply:

Sorry newman, I don't think you've established that to my satisfaction.

New man:

Sorry, but Waraqa didn't support Muhmmd much as Simeon supported Jesus.
Simeon recognized Jesus by the Holy Spirit, is that the case with Waraqa? if so, then He's a prophet according to muslims' beleif, therefore Muhmd is not the only prophet. if not, then it's just a personal opinion....

Reply:

We disagree. Waraqa was a cousin of Khadijah that she consulted about the revelation of Prophet Muhammad... and he eased her apprehension.

new man:

Waraqa calimed that this *angle* is the one who was sent to all prophets before and was sent to Moses. that makes us sure that Waraqa lied, because God talkes directly to prophets.

Reply:

No Waraqa didn't "lie" in my view... The term "angel" originated as follows:

"An angel is a spiritual being which assists and serves God in many religious traditions. The word originated from the Latin angelus, itself derived from the Greek aggeloV, ággelos, meaning “messenger” ... The closest Hebrew word for angel is "mal'ach", also meaning messenger."

See:

"Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revealtion from thy Lord in Truth..."

Surih 16:102

"Most Great Spirit," is symbolized in the Zoroastrian, the Mosaic, the Christian, and Muhammadan Dispensations by the Sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the Dove and the Angel Gabriel respectively... so the Angel is a symbol much like the symbolic references noted...in my view.

New man:

Art,you can open a new thread about Bahai' faith and I would like to talk about it there to see what Islam added to Chrisitaniy.also, you can post in my thread about *Why Islam?*..
but here, it's about the word Quran.

Reply:

Thanks newman for setting that tone... I view the Bible and Qur'an as stages of divine revelation. You'll note I haven't mentioned the Baha'i Faith as we are focused here on the Qur'an.

new man:

Muhmd didn't recive a direct revelation. according to Muslims, Allah told Gebril the angle, which then went to Muhmd and told him Allah's words.
not like Moses for example, or any of the OT prophets to whom God talked directly by himself with no angles in between...

Reply:

The Revelation is regarded as direct because it was recited and memorized and written down and checked... While in past dispensations there was first an oral tradition that was eventually set down to writing over an extended period of time.

In my view the use of angel Gabriel as a messenger is symbolic and not to be taken literally.

Note the verse in Luke 1:26-30

"In the sixth month the Angel Gabriel was sent to by God to a town in Galilee...He went in and said to her....She was deeply disturbed by these words"

Here the Angel Gabriel is the medium for the Annunciation:

new man:

let's see Jeremiah 1:9, the verse you've mentioned, and see if there was any angle between God and Jeremiah
Is this the case with Muhmd?

Reply:

Yes, in my view... Compare "I am putting words in your mouth..." Jeremiah 1:9 with "Recite; In the name of your Lord Who creates.." Surih 96:1 Both verses reflect to me a similar process only a different perspective perhaps.

New man:

now, let's go back to our main issue.
you said that the word quran means recitation.
andI asked you to explain the verse 15:1 which says "those are the verses of the Book and a clear *quran* "
and showed you that "the Book" here means the Bible...
so, I say that Quran means interpretation or explaination.
you say it's recitation.
so is it a recitation of the Bible, or an interpretation of it?

Reply:

Surih 15:1 refers to the Revelation of God that makes clear:

"When We have recited it, repeat the recitation and We shall make it clear."

It also fulfills the earlier revelations in the Bible.

Review what we wrote earlier about the meaning of the word "Qur'an" ...in the verse it is "qur-'aa" and is related to the ancient semitic Hebrew word "kara" meaning to read or recite...

Also see Jeremiah 36:6

"Therefore go thou, and read (qara') in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD'S house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read (qara') them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities."

Review my 25th post on this thread...there you will find the shades ofmeaning of "Qara'":

"Qara'a" means: to read, read a written thing, recite with or without having script, proclaim, convey, call, rehearse, transmit, deliver (a message)"

In the Bible in Jonah 3:2:

Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach (qara') unto it the preaching (q@riy'ah) that I bid thee.

for proclamation (qara') and preaching (q@riy'ah)!

- Art
 
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new_manII

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Hello Art
We disagree. Waraqa was a cousin of Khadijah that she consulted about the revelation of Prophet Muhammad... and he eased her apprehension.
So it's a personal opinion of Waraqa. He might be right and might be wrong.
No Waraqa didn't "lie" in my view... The term "angel" originated as follows...
Ok, let's look at Moses and see if God sent him an angel or God talked to him directly.
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up."
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
And Moses said, "Here I am."
5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
[Exd 3:1-6 NIV]
this is not the case with Muhmd.
now Waraqa said that this Gibrl is the same one who was sent to Moses. this is not true. so Waraqa either lied or didn't knew. and in both cases, that invalidates his testimony.

The Revelation is regarded as direct because it was recited and memorized and written down and checked... While in past dispensations there was first an oral tradition that was eventually set down to writing over an extended period of time.

In my view the use of angel Gabriel as a messenger is symbolic and not to be taken literally.
So you say Direct because it was written immediatly, not because God talked to the *prophet* directly?
well, what about Moses case? God talked to him face to face and Moses wrote the revelation immediatly...what do you say about that?
this is indirect revelation??
or both are direct revelation, but one is direct direct and the other is indirect direct???
Again, God never talked to Muhmad directly... Muhmd talked with some angel called Gibrl which calimed to be from Allah!
recheck Quran about the ways of *revelation*
and again, this proves that Waraqa lied when he calimed that this is the same as Moses.

and Now, you are saying that the use of Gebril is symbolic??? well, I will wait to see what Muslims will tell you about that. i won't comment...

Note the verse in Luke 1:26-30
"In the sixth month the Angel Gabriel was sent to by God to a town in Galilee...He went in and said to her....She was deeply disturbed by these words"
Here the Angel Gabriel is the medium for the Annunciation
Yes, and It was mentioned two times more in the bible but never carred a commandments and laws from God to a prophet of God. all prophets of God talked with God directly without Angels.
Angels can carry good news or perform some tasks or explain something to the Prophet. but prophet takes his commands and laws and orders from God directly.
God's word is the Word from God said DIRECTLY to God's Prophet nothing in between...
Again, This is not the case with Muhmd. and again that proves Waraqa's lie.

Yes, in my view... Compare "I am putting words in your mouth..." Jeremiah 1:9 with "Recite; In the name of your Lord Who creates.." Surih 96:1
Both verses reflect to me a similar process only a different perspective perhaps.
ok, compare, God said "I am putting words in your mouth..." and Gibrl ordered Muhmd to recite "Recite; In the name of your Lord Who creates.."
the first tells us that God talked directly to his prophet and cleansed his mouth to carry the message to God's people,, while the second tells us about an angel who ordered Muhmd to recite [what?] and read [what?] in the name of Muhmds Lord who created ...

to me, first verse shows me what a real prophet is, and the second shows me what a fake one is.

Surih 15:1 refers to the Revelation of God that makes clear:
"When We have recited it, repeat the recitation and We shall make it clear."
I beleive this is not the Surah 15:1 verse.
the Surah 15:1 verse says " These are the verses of the Book [The Bible] and a clear // reading- explaintion - recitation // "

and according to that verse, Quran is just a plain reading-explanation of the verses of the Bible...

agree to this?
waiting for you

be well,
nmII
 
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Arthra

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New man,

Thanks for your post... I doubt we're going to reach much of an agreement here and that's unfortunate.....But part of this i think may be because some people think very "literally" when it comes to scripture.... and some have a very literal attitude about what an "angel" is or "Angel Gabriel" and I do not. To me Angel Gabriel can be symbolic and have a spiritual meaning above that what some people may think of when the word "angel" is used.

Also you seem to want to prove that Waraqa "lied"...that's also too bad.

Waraqa according to tradition "was an old man and had lost his eyesight" when Khadijah approached him.

When Waraqa bin Naufel was supposed to have replied to the what Muhammad described, he said the following:

"This is the same "Namus" whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked: "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned then I would support you strongly." Waraqa died a few days later." (This tradition is narrated by Aisha and found in Sahh Bukhari Book 87 Number 111)

The prophecy of Waraqa is therefore to me very much like the one Simeon offered when he beheld the Christ child:

"Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "You see this child: he is destined for the fall and for the rising of many in Israel, destined to be a sign taht is rejected.... and a sword will pierce your own soul too ---so that secret thoughts of many be laid bare." - Luke 2:33-35

But what of the word Waraqa used when he said "This is the same "Namus" whom Allah had sent to Moses"...some relate that "Namus" to Angel Gabriel....

Thomas Patrich Hughes in "A Dictionary of Islam" p. 429 related the following about the word "Namus":

"According to "Kitabu 't-Ta'rifat" it is the law of God. Emmanuel Deutsch says: "The "namus" is Arabic and also Greek. It is Talmudic. It is in the first instance "nomus" "law" ... In Talmudic phraseology it stands for the Torah or Revealed Law. In Arabic it further means one who communicates a secret message. And all these different significances were conveyed by Waraqa to Muhammad." (Literary Remains p. 78)

There's much more and I'll think I'll stop there, but from what I've supplied here thus far I think you can gather that the word "Namus" is not simply referring to an "angel" ...particularly one as you have envisioned.

- Art
 
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new_manII

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hello Art
sorry for being late but it was a very busy week for me...
Thanks for your post... I doubt we're going to reach much of an agreement here and that's unfortunate.....
But part of this i think may be because some people think very "literally" when it comes to scripture....
and some have a very literal attitude about what an "angel" is or "Angel Gabriel" and I do not.
To me Angel Gabriel can be symbolic and have a spiritual meaning above that what some people may think of when the word "angel" is used.
*some people* here refers to all muslims? for Muslims beleive that there's an angel which name is Gibril appeard to Muhmed, huged him very tightly that muhmd was about to die and that *angle* has 600 wings, and when he spread his wings, he can hid 1/2 the sky!
that *angle* was the *link* beween Allah and Muhmd and he was the one who gave the Quran to Muhmd..
this is what Muslims beleive, and if there's soemthing wrong with that, please muslims, correct me...
Also you seem to want to prove that Waraqa "lied"...that's also too bad.

Waraqa according to tradition "was an old man and had lost his eyesight" when Khadijah approached him.

When Waraqa bin Naufel was supposed to have replied to the what Muhammad described, he said the following:

"This is the same "Namus" whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked: "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned then I would support you strongly." Waraqa died a few days later." (This tradition is narrated by Aisha and found in Sahh Bukhari Book 87 Number 111)
Waraqa either lied, or he didn't exactly know what he was talking about... and as i said before, in both cases, his testimony to Muhmd's prophethood will not be counted...
Namus in Arabic means Law or rule and has nothing to do with religion or anything. we call The Law givin from God to Moses "Namus Moses" or "Moses' Law"
here your own quote from post#48 page#5
A well known Tradition has it this way:
"..The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."
While God sent no angels to Moses. God spoke to Moses directly face to face.
Waraqa either didn't know that, or he knew it and didn't tell the truth for some reason!
The prophecy of Waraqa is therefore to me very much like the one Simeon offered when he beheld the Christ child:

"Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "You see this child: he is destined for the fall and for the rising of many in Israel, destined to be a sign taht is rejected.... and a sword will pierce your own soul too ---so that secret thoughts of many be laid bare." - Luke 2:33-35
Simeon said that by the Holy Spirit. is that the case with Waraqa?
NO. for according to Islam, the Holy Spirit is only for Prophets. and Waraqa was not a prophet. so what Waraqa said was his *personal opinion" that can be right or wrong.

There's much more and I'll think I'll stop there, but from what I've supplied here thus far I think you can gather that the word "Namus" is not simply referring to an "angel" ...particularly one as you have envisioned.
The point is that, Waraqa said "Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."
and this angle is a *real* creature, it's not a law or a symbol.

Sahih Bukhary Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
...The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more.
He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more.
He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?'
Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) ...
God didn't do that to Moses. nor to any other person to whom God sent an angle to comfort or give good news...

Surih 15:1 refers to the Revelation of God that makes clear:
"When We have recited it, repeat the recitation and We shall make it clear."
I beleive this is not the Surah 15:1 verse.
the Surah 15:1 verse says " These are the verses of the Book [The Bible] and a clear // reading- explaintion - recitation // "

and according to that verse, Quran is just a plain reading-explanation of the verses of the Bible...

agree to this?
waiting for you

be well,
nmII
 
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