• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Quick question on evolution

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟279,967.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
A diagram I used in another thread...

131849d1386197797-evolution-diagram.jpg


As you can see, at the bottom, purple produces purple, because you always have a purple coloured pixel next to a purple coloured pixel. Not the exact same shade of purple, but it's still purple. Over many pixels, tiny little changes add up to form a different colour. But each change is, by itself, not enough to call it a different colour.

And likewise, as amphibians evolved into reptiles, each offspring was the same species as its parent, just with a tiny change. This change was not enough to mean the offspring was a different species. After all, my daughter is different to me, but that doesn't mean she is a different species to me! But she is different nonetheless. As these differences add up, slowly and over many generations, eventually we will get to a point where we can say that my great great great.... grandchild is a different species, provided you have enough "greats" in there.
But how can a chimp give birth to a human LOL [/Poe]
 
Upvote 0

EternalDragon

Counselor
Jul 31, 2013
5,757
26
✟36,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
A diagram I used in another thread...

131849d1386197797-evolution-diagram.jpg


As you can see, at the bottom, purple produces purple, because you always have a purple coloured pixel next to a purple coloured pixel. Not the exact same shade of purple, but it's still purple. Over many pixels, tiny little changes add up to form a different colour. But each change is, by itself, not enough to call it a different colour.

And likewise, as amphibians evolved into reptiles, each offspring was the same species as its parent, just with a tiny change. This change was not enough to mean the offspring was a different species. After all, my daughter is different to me, but that doesn't mean she is a different species to me! But she is different nonetheless. As these differences add up, slowly and over many generations, eventually we will get to a point where we can say that my great great great.... grandchild is a different species, provided you have enough "greats" in there.

What is it based on though? Observation? Repeatable testing? None of those?

All it is based on is similarities. Everything was created by one ID to live on one earth so everything is related to some degree with each other. You can't base common ancestry on inferences. You have to be able to actually observe it happening or be able to repeat it and then observe it. If you aren't doing that you are just making guesses.
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟279,967.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What is it based on though? Observation? Repeatable testing? None of those?

All it is based on is similarities. Everything was created by one ID to live on one earth so everything is related to some degree with each other. You can't base common ancestry on inferences. You have to be able to actually observe it happening or be able to repeat it and then observe it. If you aren't doing that you are just making guesses.

Um, ERV and DNA analysis is observation.
 
Upvote 0

EternalDragon

Counselor
Jul 31, 2013
5,757
26
✟36,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Um, ERV and DNA analysis is observation.

It is observation of similarities. It is not observing the events.

You can observe similarities till the cows come home. In the end it will only determine one thing. That there are similarities. Anything else is a guess.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
60
✟72,306.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Originally Posted by dysert
This is an honest inquiry as I try to find out as much as I can about what evolutionists believe. I've come to learn that the ToE says that birds produce birds, fish produce fish, humans produce humans, etc. I've also come to learn that the ToE says we all came from a common ancestor. Assuming my understanding is correct, how do you reconcile those two statements? Thanks.

Thanks for the honest and understandable question. I've read about half of this thread, and see that you got several good answers in the beginning, and suggest that people try to be helpful (as most have been).

In addition to Kylie's helpful diagram and the other good answers, I think that the main problem here is understanding what is meant by terms.

In particular, the idea of "types" as "all the same" is simply not supported in the real world, so saying "fish" give rise to "fish" misses the fact that "fish", depending on one's definiton, can include things up to and including humans. Thus, you can see from things like Kylie's diagram that your statement makes sense in one or two generations, but starts to mislead you over millions of generations. All generations are a little different, and this difference grows big enough over time to cause us to use different names.

From a biological stanpoint, yes, we are still vertebrate fish, but in common speech, we don't refer to humans as fish. Thus your original question confuses scientific speech with common speech.

You also asked if the number of generations had been estimated. It has been - Google "the Ancestor's Tale" for a more detailed description (and an interesting book).

As has been pointed out, that estimate is hard for things earlier than metazoans (animals) due to the short generation time. However, for stuff like from eels up to us, it's pretty straightforward. For instance, if you go back 500 million years, our ancestors then were jawless fish:

Timeline of human evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And applying a little math puts that at about 240 million generations ago (our 240Xgreat grandparent population).

Hopefully all that, along with the other responses, is helping clarify you question. Is it?


In Christ-

Papias
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟279,967.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It is observation of similarities. It is not observing the events.

You can observe similarities till the cows come home. In the end it will only determine one thing. That there are similarities. Anything else is a guess.

Ah. So I see the crux of the issue here is. You don't know what scientific observation is.

Hint: You don't actually have to watch an event happening to observe it.
 
Upvote 0

EternalDragon

Counselor
Jul 31, 2013
5,757
26
✟36,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Ah. So I see the crux of the issue here is. You don't know what scientific observation is.

Hint: You don't actually have to watch an event happening to observe it.

That's a most ridiculous statement. It then kind of follows logic that some aspects of the evolution theory are likewise ridiculous.

ob·serve

verb \əb-ˈzərv\ : to watch and sometimes also listen to (someone or something) carefully
: to see and notice (someone or something)
: to make a comment about something you notice
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟110,463.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
That's a most ridiculous statement. It then kind of follows logic that some aspects of the evolution theory are likewise ridiculous.

ob·serve

verb \əb-ˈzərv\ : to watch and sometimes also listen to (someone or something) carefully
: to see and notice (someone or something)
: to make a comment about something you notice

3rd definition, you can notice things without physically seeing them.
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟279,967.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That's a most ridiculous statement. It then kind of follows logic that some aspects of the evolution theory are likewise ridiculous.

ob·serve

verb \əb-ˈzərv\ : to watch and sometimes also listen to (someone or something) carefully
: to see and notice (someone or something)
: to make a comment about something you notice
...and this is why the first lesson at university is to tell the newbs that dictionaries aren't great sources for specialist definitions.

Again, you don't have to be present and watching an event to observe it scientifically. Let me go with a populist example. Forensic techs don't have to be present when a crime is committed to use observation to determine what the evidence says.
 
Upvote 0

Mediate

Only Borrowed
Jan 31, 2013
682
26
✟23,492.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Would you care to elaborate on that statement a bit?

For instance are you suggesting that time is a spacial dimension, or in what respect is it a dimension, and why is time negative in distance measurement when all the spatial coordinate are positive if time is "just another" dimension"?

In other words, what do you mean?

I mean you're narrow, impatient, closed minded, insulting, pointlessly punctilious, elitist and you have a trouvaille obstinacy that makes me realize that speculating about anything with you would be as pointless as asking a fish to climb a tree. You possess the creative reverie of an Oak.

That's what I mean.

You're default poise is one of disparagement, when as a self-proclaimed 'armchair philosopher', you actually have no authority to be so reactive when people throw around ideas. You're the definition of dogmatic. And you're on here, possessing all these qualities - mainly amateurism in scientific contexts and fierce rigidity - yet you want to criticize everyone else for 'believing something'.

In case you haven't noticed, these qualities make you intolerable, and incredible.

If I have to sit and explain every tiny facet of everything I say, I will be here for days. Is time a dimension? Is time able to exist without the movement of matter and energy, under the current laws of physics?

If it's too difficult to follow, or if you can't bridge the gaps in my narrative, then please, by all means, take your time. Just stop being so obnoxious about it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EternalDragon

Counselor
Jul 31, 2013
5,757
26
✟36,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
...and this is why the first lesson at university is to tell the newbs that dictionaries aren't great sources for specialist definitions.

Again, you don't have to be present and watching an event to observe it scientifically. Let me go with a populist example. Forensic techs don't have to be present when a crime is committed to use observation to determine what the evidence says.

First that is something that has recently happened. As the crime scene gets older, it's harder to make guesses. Second, they aren't actually observing anything happening, and third they are sometimes wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟279,967.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
First that is something that has recently happened. As the crime scene gets older, it's harder to make guesses. Second, they aren't actually observing anything happening, and third they are sometimes wrong.

No, they AREN'T observing anything happening, that's the whole point. They are making observations about what has happened.
 
Upvote 0

EternalDragon

Counselor
Jul 31, 2013
5,757
26
✟36,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
No, they AREN'T observing anything happening, that's the whole point. They are making observations about what has happened.

They aren't even doing that. They are making assumptions about what might have happened.
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟279,967.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
They aren't even doing that. They are making assumptions about what might have happened.

No. They are building a theory based on the most plausible explanation of the evidence. That's how science works.

If you come up with an explanation that better fits the evidence, you go right ahead and present it.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
What is it based on though? Observation? Repeatable testing? None of those?

It is based on many thing. Geographical location of different species, similarities of anatomical features and comparisons of the DNA between the different species.

All it is based on is similarities.

Well, yes, there are similarities between all life forms. There are similarities between me and a tree, for example. But we know that the greater the degree of similarities, the more closely they are related.

Everything was created by one ID to live on one earth so everything is related to some degree with each other. You can't base common ancestry on inferences. You have to be able to actually observe it happening or be able to repeat it and then observe it. If you aren't doing that you are just making guesses.

Not quite. We aren't guessing at this. When we investigate the real world, we can find out the relationships between different species by using several different techniques. And the different techniques all give the same answer. The only way this could happen is if evolution was the cause of the similarities.

Intelligent design isn't enough to satisfactorily answer the question of why species are similar, because there are many cases where we see things that don't make sense from an ID point of view. For example, why do dolphins have lungs? Wouldn't it be far better for them to have gills, like sharks? Why would an intelligent entity design a completely aquatic animal that had all the signs of having evolved from land-living ancestors when they had already designed similar animals that had gills? Wouldn't it make sense to use a design that worked well for one group of aquatic animals and use it for others? The same question can be asked of wings. Why is it that bats have wings formed of skin stretched between fingers when the older design of birds' wings is more robust? ID can't answer this, but evolution can.
 
Upvote 0

Mediate

Only Borrowed
Jan 31, 2013
682
26
✟23,492.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
They aren't even doing that. They are making assumptions about what might have happened.

Let's make this simple. If I find human shaped footprints in the snow outside my house, I can safely assume that a human walked in the snow. Now, there is a slight chance that a monkey walked in the snow, since monkey feet and human feet are kinda similar, but monkeys rarely take more than a few steps without putting their hands on the ground, so, chances are the steps are human. There is also an even smaller chance that some humanoid alien thing walked in the snow, or that a hovering man deliberately put footprints in the snow to trick me into thinking that a human walked in the snow. But it's sort of ridiculous. We've never observed an alien humanoid, nor a hovering man.

Evolutionary science is looking at the evidence and forming a theory. Scientists aren't usually closed-minded to new theories. If you have one that fits better than the man walking in the snow, and can evidence it in any way, back it up, form logical ideas about it, then by all means, present it.

At present, evolution is the stand-out theory for how life progressed on Earth, because the evidence supporting it is almost overwhelming.

Take one look at genetic code, always made up of the same four chemicals, with animals having HUGE streams of code that are almost identical to other animals, and evolution becomes more plausible. Take into account the study at cellular levels, of bacteria mutating and going through generations in a matter of years, and the actual process of mutation becomes more evident. Take a look at the ideas of human mutations, like how, in procreation, a parent with the sickle cell gene can give their child a massively increased resistance to malaria, or how the human brain has evolved to bring conscious awareness, and the ideas for how natural selection works become more evident.

Look at fossil records and you can see bridges between MANY species. Study the reasons for certain anatomical traits and you see how creatures adapt to their environments to survive, and the idea of need-for-adaptation becomes more evident.

Study the development from gills, to oral hinge, to inner ear bones, and you see a fantastic picture being painted of how humans share commonalities with primitive fish and amphibians, and the longer term evolutionary image can become more apparent.

You have to actually study it and understand it before you criticize it.

On a side-note, the idea of intelligent design doesn't have to contradict evolution. Evolution is only the study of how life progressed once it came into being. Evolutionary theory doesn't have anything to do with abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is the theory of how life came to be. Evolutionary theory is the study of the advancement of life once it already existed.

There's no reason that God couldn't have made the laws of physics of the world he created, and let them run their course. You should look at Hebrew. Their word for 'day' can mean 'age'. The world made in seven 'ages' as opposed to days.

If you understood a bit about how the density of matter effects time you could bridge some of the gaps there too. taking into account the fact that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it's natural to ask 'so where did it come from?'

To be frank, the idea that God created the energy that currently makes up our universe is about as good an explanation as any we currently have. All the current theories of what came BEFORE the big bang, from the inflationary universe idea to the ideas of intelligent design, are based on what are inherently assumptions.

The truth is, we just don't know where that energy came from, or whether it simply 'existed' always. In my eyes, time seems to be a big factor. If energy is absolutely dense, compressed and stationary, without motion nor changing forces, then there can be no time as we know it.

It's very, very interesting And there are now scientists, studying the fluctuations of the universal expansion, who contradict other observations and say our universe is expanding FASTER.. That in and of itself may lead to disproving some of the current ideas of the big-bang.


Read it up. It's mind-bending.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟110,463.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Notice has nearly the same definition as observe.

You are splitting hairs here.

Well you don't physically see god now do you? So unless you are willing to contend that we can notice things without seeing them directly, your own position is in trouble.
 
Upvote 0

justlookinla

Regular Member
Mar 31, 2014
11,767
199
✟43,175.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well you don't physically see god now do you? So unless you are willing to contend that we can notice things without seeing them directly, your own position is in trouble.

This is why Darwinism is a faith based belief system, with a religious-like fervency surrounding the belief.
 
Upvote 0