Quick Question in Regards to Hell

[aiki]

What does it mean to believe in the Son, so we may have His Spirit living in us?

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Paul describes here what I would call "saving faith." It is not merely a belief of the intellect, mere mental assent to the idea of Christ being Saviour, but is a belief that is at the heart-level (vs. 10), encompassing the will and emotions as well as the mind, and resulting in action (ie. confession) that manifests one's belief. This is the sort of belief of which the apostle James wrote that shows one's faith in Christ by concrete corresponding action.

This expression of faith in action, however, is not, I believe, the way one proves one has faith but is the natural, inevitable by-product of heart-level faith. Such action is as natural and inevitable as apples are inevitable and natural to a healthy, mature apple tree. An apple tree, however, does not prove it is an apple tree by producing apples but produces apples simply because it is an apple tree. There is no way the apple tree can produce apples unless it is first an apple tree. Being must always precede doing; the former producing the latter. Likewise, the Christian who believes in their heart in Christ as Saviour and Lord bears the "fruit" of confession of this fact simply because doing so is the natural, inevitable result of such a heart-belief. But always the Christian's saving faith gives rise to the act of confession.

Some, though, want to say that confession is not merely a natural and inevitable result of saving faith but necessary to salvation: If one doesn't confess, if one doesn't have corresponding action bearing out one's belief, then one isn't actually saved (or has lost one's salvation). The true Christian, the truly believing Christian, must confess, must have good works, in order to be saved.

This intrudes action - good works - into the business of salvation, however, which the Bible repeatedly and explicitly forbids. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) Whatever role, then, action has to saving faith, it cannot be a salvific one. The relationship between saving belief and its corresponding action is very close, as the apostle James explained, but just as it would be a very obvious mistake to say that the apples of an apple tree must be produced in order for the apple tree to be an apple tree, it is an equally glaring mistake to say the "fruit" of saving faith - good works - is what makes a saved person a saved person. "Inevitable" and "necessary" are not the same thing and conflating them in the matter of good works and salvation leads to the heresy of works-salvation.

A tiny, immature, apple tree sapling is capable only of producing a few buds and small leaves; an apple is totally beyond its stage of growth. But it is, nonetheless, an apple tree and will, in time, be capable of producing apples. Likewise, the new believer; he will only be capable, perhaps, of the "bud" of confession of Christ as Saviour and Lord, being absolutely infantile in his life as a "new creature in Christ." The spiritual "fruit" of a mature believer simply is beyond him, being the spiritual "sapling" that he is. And fellow believers should not expect nor demand of the "sapling" believer instant spiritual maturity in his walk with God, frightening him with lost salvation if he doesn't live a perfectly holy life.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit here...

Are you saying that the work of the Spirit is irresistible in those who receive the Spirit by faith?

If so, show me Scriptures which teach what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying this. But the Holy Spirit's regeneration of the lost person is irreversible.

 

[setst777]

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Paul describes here what I would call "saving faith." It is not merely a belief of the intellect, mere mental assent to the idea of Christ being Saviour, but is a belief that is at the heart-level (vs. 10), encompassing the will and emotions as well as the mind, and resulting in action (ie. confession) that manifests one's belief. This is the sort of belief of which the apostle James wrote that shows one's faith in Christ by concrete corresponding action.

This expression of faith in action, however, is not, I believe, the way one proves one has faith but is the natural, inevitable by-product of heart-level faith. Such action is as natural and inevitable as apples are inevitable and natural to a healthy, mature apple tree. An apple tree, however, does not prove it is an apple tree by producing apples but produces apples simply because it is an apple tree. There is no way the apple tree can produce apples unless it is first an apple tree. Being must always precede doing; the former producing the latter. Likewise, the Christian who believes in their heart in Christ as Saviour and Lord bears the "fruit" of confession of this fact simply because doing so is the natural, inevitable result of such a heart-belief. But always the Christian's saving faith gives rise to the act of confession.

Some, though, want to say that confession is not merely a natural and inevitable result of saving faith but necessary to salvation: If one doesn't confess, if one doesn't have corresponding action bearing out one's belief, then one isn't actually saved (or has lost one's salvation). The true Christian, the truly believing Christian, must confess, must have good works, in order to be saved.

This intrudes action - good works - into the business of salvation, however, which the Bible repeatedly and explicitly forbids. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) Whatever role, then, action has to saving faith, it cannot be a salvific one. The relationship between saving belief and its corresponding action is very close, as the apostle James explained, but just as it would be a very obvious mistake to say that the apples of an apple tree must be produced in order for the apple tree to be an apple tree, it is an equally glaring mistake to say the "fruit" of saving faith - good works - is what makes a saved person a saved person. "Inevitable" and "necessary" are not the same thing and conflating them in the matter of good works and salvation leads to the heresy of works-salvation.

A tiny, immature, apple tree sapling is capable only of producing a few buds and small leaves; an apple is totally beyond its stage of growth. But it is, nonetheless, an apple tree and will, in time, be capable of producing apples. Likewise, the new believer; he will only be capable, perhaps, of the "bud" of confession of Christ as Saviour and Lord, being absolutely infantile in his life as a "new creature in Christ." The spiritual "fruit" of a mature believer simply is beyond him, being the spiritual "sapling" that he is. And fellow believers should not expect nor demand of the "sapling" believer instant spiritual maturity in his walk with God, frightening him with lost salvation if he doesn't live a perfectly holy life.

Yes, true. A genuine faith produces good fruit. Good fruit does not produce genuine faith.

Even our confession of faith is the fruit of a true faith in Lord Jesus as our rightful Lord whom we now follow by faith as His disciple.

Even so, would you agree that being in the faith is not a cake walk - as if it were natural that we will remain faithful?

For instance, a disciple of Jesus, still lives in a sinful world, and lives in the corruptible flesh. So our faith is continually tested by temptations, trials, sufferings, deception, persecution, and even martyrdom, of which Lord Jesus and the Apostolic Writers continually warned about. Would you agree?

No, I'm not saying this. But the Holy Spirit's regeneration of the lost person is irreversible.

How would you define "regeneration?"

 

[ViaCrucis]

If a person (who is born again) purposely committed a sin before they died, would they go to hell?

*Bonus question: what if the sin this person purposely committed resulted in their death? Would they go to hell?

I think this question is important, but not for necessarily obvious reasons. I think this question is important because it demonstrates just how poorly the Church has expressed itself faith and teaching in modern western society--such that Christianity has been reduced to "Trying to go to heaven" and "Avoid going to hell". And salvation is perceived as a kind of on/off switch that can be toggled based upon any happenstance of life--based on our believing, thinking, feeling, or doing the right or wrong things.

What I want to do here is to, quite simply, summarily dismiss this entire way of thinking as being at best an incredibly loose and poor parody of Christianity.

This isn't a criticism against you, but against the condition of many churches which have severely dropped the ball on properly catechizing their members.

Salvation isn't a toggle, it's not like if I believe these things, say those things, and cross all my t's and dot all my i's then the salvation toggle is on; but if I fail then the toggle turns off.

By the same token, salvation isn't a toggle that some people are saved because they've attained some special "salvation status" and thus they have their golden ticket to heaven.

Salvation must first be grounded in the story of what God has has done, has been doing, is doing, and will continue to do until the work is fully completed; the story of God as the Creator of heaven and earth, who is stubborn in His love for creation, and refuses to let that creation decay to nothing. And the zenith, the high point, the climax of that story is Jesus Christ, His birth, His life, His works, His death, His resurrection.

Early Christians referred to the day that Jesus rose from the dead as the "8th Day of Creation", because they saw in the resurrection God's re-affirmation of the goodness of creation, ("And God saw all that He had made and saw that it was exceedingly good" - Genesis 1:31). In Christ's resurrection God re-affirmed creation, and His commitment to creation, to the renewal and healing of creation.

Our partaking in that, by our being regenerated, "born again", by the grace of God through the waters of Holy Baptism means:

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

Having been joined to Jesus, to His own death, and His resurrection, means our participation in Christ's work; the healing of the world, the healing of our own humanity, the rebirth of our humanity in Jesus to live in the world as new people refreshed and regenerated by God's love and mercy. That is, what Christ has accomplished objectively already, is given to us personally. And so we have the "down payment" of the future resurrection and hope of God's renewing of all creation--namely the Holy Spirit (c.f. Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, Romans 8:18-25)

If I sin, I should confess my sin, because I should grieve over the unjust things I say, think, and do; not out of fear of hell, as though God is going to revoke my salvation license because I screw up. But because when I sow injury I am bringing more pain, suffering, and death into the world. Through my sin I collude with death and injustice, and Christ calls me to be His disciple, to serve Him, and in my service to Him as my Lord, to love others even as I have been loved--freely and unconditionally.

So that when I see someone who is suffering, I should reach out to them in love. When I see a hungry person, I feed them.

The point isn't "going to heaven" or to get some kind of heavenly swag based on our accumulated brownie points. The point is that God is saving and healing the world, and here and now, by the power of the Holy Spirit, I have the opportunity to either be part of what God is doing, or I can collude with death, injustice, and in a very real way, my own dehumanization. When we bring pain and suffering to those around us, we deny their God-given humanity, but also we deny our own God-given humanity. The human person is to reflect God--His love, His justice, His mercy, His goodness in the world. When we sin, we pervert the Divine Image, we deny our humanity even as we deny the humanity of others--in denying their humanity we perpetuate the continued cycle of death and misery; and in doing so, denying our own humanity, we give ourselves over to death.

The Christian is not someone who has a golden ticket to some sweet up-in-the-air Disney Land, but is someone who has been called to bear in themselves the hope of the resurrection, the hope vindicated by Jesus' own resurrection, for which reason St. Paul calls Jesus the "first fruits of the resurrection", for Christ has been raised, the evidence of resurrection, so that the dead will indeed rise. If Christ is risen, the dead will rise; if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ is risen (1 Corinthians 15:12-28). To believe in this Jesus, confess Him as Lord, that God has raised Him from the dead, and to therefore walk in faith, and hope, and charity in the world as disciples, followers, of this Jesus in the world.

In the hope that one day all creation will be made new and all shall be set to rights, that is the hope borne of Christ's own resurrection from the dead, as we "look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the Age to come" (the Nicene Creed).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Taodeching]

If a person (who is born again) purposely committed a sin before they died, would they go to hell?

*Bonus question: what if the sin this person purposely committed resulted in their death? Would they go to hell?

I could not say for sure because only God really knows. Now if I were to speculate I would say they would go to purgatory

 

[aiki]

Even so, would you agree that being in the faith is not a cake walk - as if it were natural that we will remain faithful?

One's walk with God is impossible apart from His enabling power. And that enabling power is ours only as we walk in constant submission to Him. But even this submission God must enable; for we are too weak in-and-of ourselves to live as He has called us to live. (John 15:5; Philippians 2:13) Faithfulness is a Fruit of the Spirit, given to, and developed in, us by him. (Galatians 5:22)

For instance, a disciple of Jesus, still lives in a sinful world, and lives in the corruptible flesh. So our faith is continually tested by temptations, trials, sufferings, deception, persecution, and even martyrdom, of which Lord Jesus and the Apostolic Writers continually warned about. Would you agree?

Definitely. And this is why thinking we can resort to ourselves for the wherewithal to remain faithful and obedient to God is a recipe for disaster spiritually. "All things in Jesus I find," the hymn goes and this is absolutely true.

How would you define "regeneration?"

See John 3:3-6, Titus 3:5 and Romans 8:9-11.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: ↑
Even so, would you agree that being in the faith is not a cake walk - as if it were natural that we will remain faithful?

One's walk with God is impossible apart from His enabling power. And that enabling power is ours only as we walk in constant submission to Him. But even this submission God must enable; for we are too weak in-and-of ourselves to live as He has called us to live. (John 15:5; Philippians 2:13) Faithfulness is a Fruit of the Spirit, given to, and developed in, us by him. (Galatians 5:22)

I agree with the first part, that God enables (leads us by His Spirit) as we walk in constant submission to Him.

Since you say that even our submission is enabled by God, then that means God is irresistibly and actively working out your faith for you guaranteed.

However, all the Scriptures teach us that our faith is our responsibility before a holy God. The disciples are commanded to remain faithful, to continue in the faith, to endure to the end, to be saved. So you have a problem with your doctrine.

Now let us review the Scripture you provide as proof of your doctrine.

John 15:5 (WEB) 5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Apart from abiding in Christ by faith, we can do nothing.

As we follow Lord Jesus by faith, demonstrated in obedience, we bear good fruit. Without abiding in Christ by faith demonstrated in obedience, we will not bear good fruit.

John 15:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Lord Jesus explains that, as we keep his commandments we will remain (abide) in him, and that is how we bear much fruit. The regeneration of the Spirit remains in us by faithful obedience to His Word.

Faith in Lord Jesus (following Him) is continuous, and is how we live, walk, and sow to the Spirit so that we may continue in the life (regeneration) of the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Philippians 2:13 (WEB) 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

The context of Philippians 2:13 is in the following:

Philippians 2:12-13 (WEB) 12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

God, through His Spirit in the believer, is working in them to will and to work His good pleasure, which is the reason for us to fear and tremble.

God works in us through His Spirit, but that work is not irresistible. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that God is working in us.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, WE have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

So do not be deceived, God is not mocked. You are commanded to remain faithful to your Lord to remain in His Love.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

Faith always remains our responsibility to access the power of God onto salvation.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

Galatians 5:22 (WEB) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,

Here is the context of Galatians 5:22

Galatians 5::22-25 (WEB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

The fruits of the Spirit are character traits of the believers: love (toward others), joy, peace (with others), kindness (to all), goodness (to others), faithfulness (trustworthy and faithful with others). These are all good fruits of a good tree - ones who already believe in Jesus, and remain in him by faith, walking by His Spirit. John 15:1-10

The fruit of the Spirit is demonstrated in those who already possess the Spirit by faith, and are diligent to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit, which means, we are to continue to follow Lord Jesus in obedience so the Spirit may lead us to bear good fruit.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

setst777 said: ↑
For instance, a disciple of Jesus, still lives in a sinful world, and lives in the corruptible flesh. So our faith is continually tested by temptations, trials, sufferings, deception, persecution, and even martyrdom, of which Lord Jesus and the Apostolic Writers continually warned about. Would you agree?

Definitely. And this is why thinking we can resort to ourselves for the wherewithal to remain faithful and obedient to God is a recipe for disaster spiritually. "All things in Jesus I find," the hymn goes and this is absolutely true.

Yet the Scriptures command, admonish, and instruct us to follow and obey Lord Jesus, to remain, endure, and continue in the faith to be saved.

The Scriptures also teach that those who were in the faith will fall from the faith, or be deceived, and so be lost.

So, who will you believe to save you – your hymns or God’s Holy Word?

setst777 said: ↑
How would you define "regeneration?"

See John 3:3-6, Titus 3:5 and Romans 8:9-11.

Good. We see in Romans 8:9-11 that it is by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us that we are Spiritually made alive. That is regeneration.

“Romans 8” continues by teaching us that this life in the Spirit is only ours as we live by the Spirit. Only those who live by the Spirit will the Spirit lead into that life.

Romans 8:12-14
12 So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

By faith we are children of God, who then receive the Spirit of God.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

Regeneration, therefore, is only possible as we live by the Spirit by the same faith we had when we first received the Spirit by faith.

By what faith do Christians receive the Spirit?

We receive the Spirit by a repentant and obedient faith:

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

The Spirit, who indwells us by this Gospel Faith, leads our faith commitment to victory, but only as we continue in the faith - living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells us.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB) 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

 

[aiki]

I agree with the first part, that God enables (leads us by His Spirit) as we walk in constant submission to Him.

Since you say that even our submission is enabled by God, then that means God is irresistibly and actively working out your faith for you guaranteed.

No, I don't go so far as the Calvinist does in this regard, espousing theistic determinism and all its attendant irrationality (aka "mystery"). We do have the freedom to choose to act in accord with what God does in enabling us to be faith-filled people (or not). But God is the Great Persuader and the Gospel the "power of God unto salvation." God goes to very important, very necessary, lengths to enable us to choose Christ which He must do if we are ever even going to consider the Saviour.


But choosing what God offers to us in the Spirit is the only way we live according to God's will and way. When we do choose the Spirit's control, being filled and transformed by him, faith/faithfulness is an inevitable result. (Galatians 5:22)

What happens when we refuse the Spirit's control and our faithfulness does not grow and flourish as it otherwise would? We remain as the "infants in Christ" that Paul wrote of in 1 Corinthians 3:1, stunted in our spiritual growth or like the believers of Hebrews 5:11-14 who were unable to take in the "meat" of God's truth, having to be taught again the basic truths of the faith, the "milk" of Christian doctrine. What's worse, a believer in this stunted condition cannot delight in God, enjoying daily intimate communion with Him. This is the true catastrophe of the life of a carnal Christian.

However, all the Scriptures teach us that our faith is our responsibility before a holy God. The disciples are commanded to remain faithful, to continue in the faith, to endure to the end, to be saved. So you have a problem with your doctrine.

No, my doctrine is fine. I've laid out my understanding from Scripture, handling it carefully, and your flat denial of what I've explained is simply not an effective counter to it. Really, from my perspective, you are the one with doctrinal problems.

Now let us review the Scripture you provide as proof of your doctrine.

Yes, let's review. This should be interesting...

Apart from abiding in Christ by faith, we can do nothing.

Wow. That didn't take long. Already you're adding to Scripture to make your case. John 15:5 doesn't say anything about faith. What faith did the disciples to whom Jesus was speaking in John 15:5 have to exercise in the Messiah who stood before them, teaching them, and performing miracle after miracle? Very little. None, in fact. Which is why, at least in part, Jesus says nothing to them about abiding by faith in him.

But about one thing Jesus is absolutely clear: there is NOTHING that can be done apart from him. This is certainly true in respect to Christ being our Creator, giving us existence physically, but it is just as true spiritually, giving us life in himself by the Spirit. Without the life he gives us physically AND spiritually we can do NOTHING.

You just ignore this, however, going right to riding your "hobby horse" of faith-work, as though Jesus's "nothing" doesn't really mean nothing. We can generate, at least, the faith to believe, you seem to think. But, then, Christ was wrong and there is something we can do without him. Are you really so committed to your faith-work perspective that you will contradict Christ himself to maintain it? Yikes.

As we follow Lord Jesus by faith, demonstrated in obedience, we bear good fruit. Without abiding in Christ by faith demonstrated in obedience, we will not bear good fruit.

And...more of your additions to the verse. When you have to eisegetically maneuver Scripture to your way of thinking, surely, you must see that there's a problem with your thinking.

John 15:5 - nor its immediate context - say anything about abiding by faith. Nor does Christ in the verse say anything about "faith demonstrated in obedience." He says only to abide in himself as the Vine, the source of all life and power for his disciples (and, by extension, all other disciples of Christ). As Christ makes very plain, the "fruit" of which he speaks is the consequence, not of the obedient efforts of those in him, but of the life of the Vine infusing its "branches."

You appear to ignore the entire point of Christ's remarks in order to sustain your faith-works perspective, adding heavily to John 15:5 to do so. In contrast, I am not having to add anything, understanding Christ's words exactly as they are given. Whose perspective, then, has the problem? Certainly not mine.

"Abiding" has to do with being, not doing, by the way. It is only as one is a branch in the Vine that fruit is formed. Being a branch in the Vine precedes producing fruit, the former being the necessary condition for the latter. Does a branch produce itself? Does it make itself grow, quivering with the strain of popping out fruit from itself? Of course not. The branch is simply a natural extension of the Vine, infused with the life-giving, fruit-producing "sap" of the Vine, growing large and bearing fruit as a consequence of the "sap" - the life - of the Vine within it.

John 15:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Lord Jesus explains that, as we keep his commandments we will remain (abide) in him, and that is how we bear much fruit. The regeneration of the Spirit remains in us by faithful obedience to His Word.

John 15:8-17 (NASB)
8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

It is exactly the opposite of what you've said that is the case here. We don't remain in Christ by our obedience. That is flat-out works salvation. We are in the Vine as branches and so, or because of, this, we bear "fruit." The life of the Vine, of Christ, infuses us in the Person of the Spirit, giving to us life and producing in us spiritual "fruit." (Philippians 2:13; Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 3:16; Ephesians 5:9; Titus 3:5; John 3:3-6, etc.)

In verse 8, Jesus draws the connection between abiding in him and bearing fruit as disciples, or "branches in the Vine." When one is abiding in Christ, the result - NOT the means of such abiding - is "much fruit." In light of verses 4 and 5 of John 15, there is simply no other way to understand verse 8.

Verse 10 draws attention to the supremacy of the First and Great Commandment, which is to love God with all of one's being (Matthew 22:36-38) Truly keeping God's commandments necessarily BEGINS with this great commandment and so Jesus points this out in verse 10, making love and obedience synonymous.

The Christian is really only properly obedient when they love God with all they are, first and foremost. This love precedes all other forms of obedience and is the sole ground out of which they are to arise. If the Christian's obedience doesn't begin with loving God, all else they do in obedience to God is, the apostle Paul pointed out, useless:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (NASB)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Faith in Lord Jesus (following Him) is continuous, and is how we live, walk, and sow to the Spirit so that we may continue in the life (regeneration) of the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Your statement here and the Scripture you use to support it are in contradiction to one another.

"Faith in the Lord Jesus is...how we live, walk and sow to the Spirit so that we may continue in the life of the Spirit."

This is bald-faced works-salvation. And Paul denies such a view in the verses you supply here. Paul says it is by the Spirit, not by your faith and your persistence in it, that fleshly living is put to death. In fact, you reveal that you are a child of God, Paul wrote, if you are led by the Spirit. It is the Spirit that is the crucial thing in verses 12-14, not the determination and efforts of the believer. You have entirely reversed this, making the Spirit subordinate to the faithfulness and obedience of the believer.

God, through His Spirit in the believer, is working in them to will and to work His good pleasure, which is the reason for us to fear and tremble.

God works in us through His Spirit, but that work is not irresistible. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that God is working in us.

??? You sound here like you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. You want to affirm the truth of God's working in us what we work out but blunt this truth by suggesting that the believer in whom God is working ought to be afraid, knowing they can resist His work. I don't think the "fear and trembling" has to do with being afraid of resisting God's work, but of thrilling to the thought of God's amazing Person and work in their salvation. As the apostle John explained, we cannot love God and operate from a basis of fear in our walk with Him (1 John 4:16-19). Love casts out fear which means, if one is obeying the First and Great Commandment, one cannot be walking in fear before God. How, then, can the "fear and trembling" of which Paul wrote be the craven fear of lost salvation? Such a reading puts Paul and John at direct odds with one another.

Here is the context of Galatians 5:22

Galatians 5::22-25 (WEB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

The fruits of the Spirit are character traits of the believers: love (toward others), joy, peace (with others), kindness (to all), goodness (to others), faithfulness (trustworthy and faithful with others). These are all good fruits of a good tree - ones who already believe in Jesus, and remain in him by faith, walking by His Spirit. John 15:1-10

The fruit of the Spirit is demonstrated in those who already possess the Spirit by faith, and are diligent to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit, which means, we are to continue to follow Lord Jesus in obedience so the Spirit may lead us to bear good fruit.

Obviously, you can't see the intrusion of your faith-works thinking into every Scripture you encounter. Paul wrote to the Galatians that the "fruit" of love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faith, etc, are of the Spirit, not of self-effort, of the determined labor of the believer. It is the Spirit's work in the believer that causes them to "bear fruit," not the diligent living, sowing, and walking of the believer. As Paul explained to the Philippians, the believer only works out what God has first worked into them by His Spirit. Why are you so opposed to this reality? Why would you rather twist Scripture on this point than accept it as it is?

The Spirit will not force anyone to walk with him, being led by him and constantly under his control, but this doesn't mean that a person who doesn't walk with the Spirit does not, therefore, live in the Spirit. This is what Paul points out in verse 25 of Galatians 5. It is only because a believer is alive in the Spirit - living (spiritually) by the Spirit - that they are able to walk by the Spirit with God. Being must precede doing. There must first be spiritual life, given by the Spirit, if there is to be walking with him in loving obedience. Only when the first condition exists can the second be achieved. But this means that living in the Spirit is possible apart from walking in him. To analogize: One can be in a canoe even if one is not paddling it around; but one must be in the canoe in order to do so. In other words, paddling arises from being in the canoe but it is not necessary to being in it. So, too, with living by the Spirit spiritually and walking by the Spirit. The believer can be in the "canoe" of the Spirit but not "paddling around"; the believer cannot "paddle around" in the "canoe" of the Spirit, however, if he is not first in the "canoe."

Is there a time-limit on how long one can be in the "canoe" of the Spirit without paddling before he is cast out of the "canoe" of the Spirit? How long, exactly? Is it amount of paddling that is the key? How much paddling, exactly, must one do to stay in the "canoe" of the Spirit? I've never encountered a works-salvation advocate who could offer concrete answers to these questions from Scripture. Telling, that, I think.

And what of the carnal Christians of 1 Corinthians, guilty of all sorts of sin - some very gross sin, in fact - but whom Paul called God's building, field, and temple, whom he referred to repeatedly as "brethren" and "saints"? According to your thinking, they would all be ejected from the faith for not being "faithful" and "sowing, walking and living" properly. Paul doesn't appear to take your view, however.

Yet the Scriptures command, admonish, and instruct us to follow and obey Lord Jesus, to remain, endure, and continue in the faith to be saved.

Absolutely. Which it does BECAUSE the believer is in Christ, a temple of the Spirit, empowered by him to all Christian living.

The key to a faithful, enduring, holy life in the Spirit is not obedience and determined effort, but submission, yielding, and surrender. (Romans 6:13-22; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:6, Micah 6:8, etc.) But it is only God who can bring any of us to a place of full, joyful, loving surrender to Himself. The Christian's salvation is fundamentally God's doing and so is the Christian's life in Christ. He works in us as He does, taking all the glory for our transformation, because we are His workmanship, not our own.

The Scriptures also teach that those who were in the faith will fall from the faith, or be deceived, and so be lost.

I don't believe that for a second. Neither should you. See above.

 

[Albion]

See above.

?? I think I'll wait until it comes out in book form. Much easier to read.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: ↑
I agree with the first part, that God enables (leads us by His Spirit) as we walk in constant submission to Him.

Since you say that even our submission is enabled by God, then that means God is irresistibly and actively working out your faith for you guaranteed.

No, I don't go so far as the Calvinist does in this regard, espousing theistic determinism and all its attendant irrationality (aka "mystery"). We do have the freedom to choose to act in accord with what God does in enabling us to be faith-filled people (or not). But God is the Great Persuader and the Gospel the "power of God unto salvation." God goes to very important, very necessary, lengths to enable us to choose Christ which He must do if we are ever even going to consider the Saviour.

Good so far.

But choosing what God offers to us in the Spirit is the only way we live according to God's will and way. When we do choose the Spirit's control, being filled and transformed by him, faith/faithfulness is an inevitable result. (Galatians 5:22)

“Galatians 5:22” teaches nothing about faith being inevitable. The fruits of the Spirit are only manifest in those who believe.

Our remaining faithful is never inevitable. That is why we see so many warnings, admonitions, commands, and instruction, to remain faithful, to endure in the faith, to continue in the faith, to stand in the faith, and to walk, live, and so to the Spirit, to have life. If we remain faithful, God continues His saving work in us.

What happens when we refuse the Spirit's control and our faithfulness does not grow and flourish as it otherwise would? We remain as the "infants in Christ" that Paul wrote of in 1 Corinthians 3:1, stunted in our spiritual growth or like the believers of Hebrews 5:11-14 who were unable to take in the "meat" of God's truth, having to be taught again the basic truths of the faith, the "milk" of Christian doctrine. What's worse, a believer in this stunted condition cannot delight in God, enjoying daily intimate communion with Him. This is the true catastrophe of the life of a carnal Christian.

“1 Corinthians 3:1” is not discussing immorality or disobedience, but about divisions amongst the believers. The believers were not aware of the issues they were having until Paul brought it to their attention.

So you cannot use “1 Corinthians 3:1” to show that living in sinful disobedience does not affect our salvation, or that actual obedience and sanctification are optional for a true Christian to remain in Christ Jesus and be saved.

The New Testament is in harmony, from beginning to end, that no one who continues in any sin will inherit the Kingdom of God. A Passage about actual sinning from the same letter to the Corinthians is as follows:

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (WEB)
10 Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”Exodus 32:6 8
Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 9 Let’s not test Christ, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents.
10 Do not grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

To “fall” is to be lost.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Continuing in any sin is a rejection of God, and the faith. No such person will be saved, unless they repent. Only as the believer continues to walk in the light of God’s Spirit will the believer continue in that life.

Ephesians 5:3-9 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, 9 for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB) “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 14:12-13 (WEB)
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,

“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Remaining faithful (continuing in the same faith by which God saves us) is, according to the Gospel, our responsibility before a holy God, and is not optional.

1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life. 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB) 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

No guarantee is provided in Scripture that those currently in the faith will overcome, or will endure temptation, or not wander from the faith.

setst777 said: ↑
Apart from abiding in Christ by faith, we can do nothing.

Wow. That didn't take long. Already you're adding to Scripture to make your case. John 15:5 doesn't say anything about faith.

Question:
Was “John 15:1-10” written to believers – ones who were already following Christ?

Answer:
Yes, Lord Jesus was instructing His disciples - those following Him by faith.

So what is the point of Lord Jesus instruction to the believers? The instruction is that believers are to remain in Him and bear much fruit.

Note that the Vine (Lord Jesus) will continue to support the branch (those who follow Him by faith), only as the branch remains in the Vine producing good fruit. The unfruitful branches are cut off.

The unfruitful branches did not remain faithful to follow Lord Jesus.

IF they do remain in Him, then He remains in us.
IF the believer does not remain in Him, then the Father will be cut them off and throw into the fire.

Now read Lord Jesus explanation of the illustration:

John 15:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you (the believer) bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain (abide) in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

As the believer remains in Christ by faith, demonstrated in obedience to Lord Jesus, then Lord Jesus remains in us, and the believer who remains will bear much fruit.

Why? That is the Gospel.

Romans 1:5 (NIV) 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 16:25-26 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith

That is what a disciple is – a faithful follow of Jesus, obeying all things He commands of us. That is the Gospel.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

So, we remain (abide) in Christ by faith demonstrated in obedience. As we do so, Lord Jesus remains in us.

Yet, you say we do not abide in Christ by faith. How is that possible?

Do you not believe that we are saved by believing (continuous) in Lord Jesus?

Jesus says nothing to them about abiding by faith in him.

So a disciple of Lord Jesus – one who already believes in Him – stands by his faith.

That is how the believer continues in His kindness, and so will not be cut off.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Scripture provides no guarantee that a believer will remain faithful; rather, the believers are commanded to continue in the faith to saved demonstrated in a sanctified life before Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB)
3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

As we follow Lord Jesus we will have the light of life, not the other way around.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

continued

 

[setst777]

We don't remain in Christ by our obedience. That is flat-out works salvation.

The obedience that comes from faith is not a works salvation; rather, that is the Gospel.

Acts 11:26 (WEB) 26 The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

To be a disciple of Lord Jesus is to follow Him, and to obey all things that He commands of us. That is the meaning of being a Christian. The whole reason and purpose for the Gospel is to make disciples (Christians). That is the Gospel.

That is the faith by which we abide in Lord Jesus.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

setst777 said: ↑
Faith in Lord Jesus (following Him) is continuous, and is how we live, walk, and sow to the Spirit so that we may continue in the life (regeneration) of the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Your statement here and the Scripture you use to support it are in contradiction to one another.

setst wrote: "Faith in the Lord Jesus is...how we live, walk and sow to the Spirit so that we may continue in the life of the Spirit."

This is bald-faced works-salvation.

Who is Paul writing to? He is writing to Christians, those who already believe in Lord Jesus and follow Him.

The obligation is on the Christian – those who repent and believe in Lord Jesus – to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit who lives in him by faith.

Those those believers who keep their faith commitment of repentance will continue to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit. That is the faith of the Gospel – a sanctified life onto God. Only these will inherit eternal life.

Romans 6:22 (NIV)22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Those who, by faith, live by the Spirit are the ones the Spirit leads. The context of all the Scripture show us that the obligation is on the Christian to believe, live, drink, walk, and sow to the Spirit to have life. Those Christians who do live by the Spirit, as directed, the Spirit will lead.

Many will not remain faithful, and will begin to live for the flesh. To these the Spirit will not lead into life, unless they repent.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world produces death.

setst777 said: ↑
God, through His Spirit in the believer, is working in them to will and to work His good pleasure, which is the reason for us to fear and tremble.

God works in us through His Spirit, but that work is not irresistible. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that God is working in us.

??? You sound here like you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. You want to affirm the truth of God's working in us what we work out but blunt this truth by suggesting that the believer in whom God is working ought to be afraid, knowing they can resist His work.

That is what the Scriptures state. The words used by the Apostle Paul are “fear and trembling.” And we are obligated to live by the Spirit to have life – the Spirit leading as we follow.

I don't think the "fear and trembling" has to do with being afraid of resisting God's work, but of thrilling to the thought of God's amazing Person and work in their salvation.

To fear is one thing, but to "fear and trembling" is another thing. I remember once when I feared to the point of actually trembling uncontrollably, that is when I was most afraid. Not just a normal fear, but a tremendous fear.

So, we are to fear and tremble, but we can also rest in the sure promises of God as we remain faithful to God, walking by His Spirit as He directs us to do.

Not every Christian will continue to live by the Spirit, and so will die – be cut off. So, as we keep these things in mind, there is fear and trembling, because God is a consuming fire who will judge the disobedient.

setst777 said: ↑
Here is the context of Galatians 5:22

Galatians 5::22-25 (WEB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

The fruits of the Spirit are character traits of the believers: love (toward others), joy, peace (with others), kindness (to all), goodness (to others), faithfulness (trustworthy and faithful with others). These are all good fruits of a good tree - ones who already believe in Jesus, and remain in him by faith, walking by His Spirit. John 15:1-10

The fruit of the Spirit is demonstrated in those who already possess the Spirit by faith, and are diligent to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit, which means, we are to continue to follow Lord Jesus in obedience so the Spirit may lead us to bear good fruit.

Obviously, you can't see the intrusion of your faith-works thinking into every Scripture you encounter. Paul wrote to the Galatians that the "fruit" of love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faith, etc, are of the Spirit, not of self-effort, of the determined labor of the believer. It is the Spirit's work in the believer that causes them to "bear fruit," not the diligent living, sowing, and walking of the believer. As Paul explained to the Philippians, the believer only works out what God has first worked into them by His Spirit. Why are you so opposed to this reality? Why would you rather twist Scripture on this point than accept it as it is?

As we “believe,” “drink,” “live,” “walk,” and “sow” to the Spirit (which is what a Christian is directed to do), then the Spirit will lead us into life. That is what the Scriptures actually teach.

The believer himself is commanded to “believe,” “drink,” “live,” “walk,” and “sow” to the Spirit

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! (continuous) 38 He who believes (continuous) in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”

As we “believe,” or “drink,” is when we have life in the Spirit according to John 7:37-39.

John 4:13-14 (WEB)
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks (continuous) of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Spirit gives us eternal life inside as we drink of the Spirit - “whoever drinks” – continuous drinking, according to John 4:13-14.

Romans 8:12-13 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The obligation is on the Christian, those who already believe, to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit so that he may live.

We have the light of life only as we continue to follow Lord Jesus - not the other way around:

John 8:12 (WEB) He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Being weak in the flesh, we cannot live by obeying the Law, but if we walk in the Spirit, only then will the Law of God be fulfilled in us.

As we walk by the Spirit, the Spirit frees the believer from bondage to sin, so that he may live a holy and righteous life before Him as the believer pledged to do when He gave His allegiance to Lord Jesus. That is the new life.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is what Paul points out in verse 25 of Galatians 5. It is only because a believer is alive in the Spirit - living (spiritually) by the Spirit - that they are able to walk by the Spirit with God. Being must precede doing. There must first be spiritual life, given by the Spirit, if there is to be walking with him in loving obedience.

When we repent and believe in Lord Jesus, demonstrated in obedience, the Spirit then indwells the believers to give us life.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

As we continue to live by this same faith, the Spirit leads our faith commitment to victory, freeing us from sin’s bondage.

So faith must continue so the Spirit continues to lead us. We demonstrate our continued Faith in Lord Jesus as continue to drink, live, walk, and sow to the Spirit who indwells us, which is the same as saying, we are to remain faithful to our Lord demonstrated in following Him. Only these receive Spiritual life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Only as we follow Lord Jesus, will we have the light of life. That is what abiding in Christ means.

setst777 said: ↑
Yet the Scriptures command, admonish, and instruct us to follow and obey Lord Jesus, to remain, endure, and continue in the faith to be saved.

Absolutely. Which it does BECAUSE the believer is in Christ, a temple of the Spirit, empowered by him to all Christian living.

Faithful obedience is never guaranteed by God. God commands us to endure to the end to be saved.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB) 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

continued

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: ↑
The Scriptures also teach that those who were in the faith will fall from the faith, or be deceived, and so be lost.

I don't believe that for a second. Neither should you.

You have to reject a significant portion of Scripture to hold onto your doctrine, because every book of the NT keeps teaching our responsibility to live out our faith.

A sample of those Scriptures, besides the ones I already quoted earlier in this message, I include as follows:

1 Peter 1:9 Young's Literal Translation
9 receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 (WEB) 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

Notice the believer is responsible for His faith - from beginning to end - to be saved eternally.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If a person (who is born again) purposely committed a sin before they died, would they go to hell?

*Bonus question: what if the sin this person purposely committed resulted in their death? Would they go to hell?

Probably depends upon the heart. If you lost your temper and insulted someone is not the same as going into a crowd and starting to shoot people.

A simple answer yes or no is misleading. Say “no” and a license to sin is granted. Say “yes” and the believer has to live in fear. Jesus said to “take care” not “be care free” nor “careless” about your salvation.

 

[chilehed]

If a person (who is born again) purposely committed a sin before they died, would they go to hell?

That depends on the gravity of the sin, their knowledge of its sinfulness and their freedom of will in committing it.