Quick Question Concerning Mary

[xThirst4Godx]

I just wanted to ask about the Lutheran Church's stance towards Marian theology. Do you venerate her (not personally, as a church), or not?

 

[Aibrean]

Mary is Mary. A human that was blessed to be the vessel of Jesus.

 

[DaSeminarian]

I just wanted to ask about the Lutheran Church's stance towards Marian theology. Do you venerate her (not personally, as a church), or not?

Many of Luther's early writings referred to her the way Catholics do today, however, as he got older he saw her merely as the Blessed Mother of Jesus and not someone to be prayed to for intervention.

 

[Qoheleth]

I just wanted to ask about the Lutheran Church's stance towards Marian theology.

Article XXII of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Lutherans testify that

blessed Mary prays for the church



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The Apology goes on to state that Mary

is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed


​

Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been

born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary






Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration), Lutherans confess

Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother's womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.






The Formula of Concord (Epitome) states in the clearest possible language the accession to the doctrine of Mary as the Theotokos:

we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not only a plain, ordinary, mere man but the veritable Son of God; for this reason she is rightly called, and truly is, the mother of God.




Q
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[PreachersWife2004]

Should a Catholic really be answering a question posed at Lutherans? I don't think so.

I'm a Lutheran, so let me answer you. We don't venerate her, we don't worship her, we don't pray to her. As to her virginity, she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, but there is nothing to indicate that she remained a virgin after that. After all, she was married, why would she not enjoy the privileges of a married life? But nothing in the bible addresses this.

Mary truly was blessed to be the mother of Jesus. But apart from that, she is a normal human being, born into original sin just like all of us.

 

[Qoheleth]

But apart from that, she is a normal human being

Well, it sounds like the Lutheran Confessions say a bit more than being just a normal human being...



The Apology goes on to state that Mary

is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed


​

Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been

born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary


Q
​

 

[Qoheleth]

born into original sin just like all of us

Indeed, Luther seemed to feel differently...


"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."

(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)



and this was interesting to read...



"Luther's own theory on that was quite interesting. Conceived with original sin, yes, but at the infusion of the soul there was a cleansing by the Holy Spirit. He preached on this on the day of her conception (1523 I think) and he also repeated the theory years later - toward the close of his life in the 1540's. We are not bound by Luther's opinions, of course, but by the Sacred Scriptures. But we recognize that pious opinion has long held that the Most Holy Virgin (as our Symbols term her) was sinless in regard to actual sins as a special grace of God, but subject to death through the contagion of original sin from her birth." (Pr. Weedon - LCMS)


Q

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Hey, I saw that on Weedon's blog...I never knew of that reference before he posted!

For the Lutherans...there is an interesting post on the Children of God blog written by the wife of a pastor in the LCMS. I love this woman. She has such a gentle spirit and an amazing ability to see life through the eyes of her little ones. I encourage any one, especially mothers, to check out her blog and read it regularly.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

The truth is there is probably a very very small minority of Lutherans who pray, venerate, and worship her. This is viewed as a cult and the extreme majority of the Lutheran Church does not succumb to this. I'm guessing with the Orthodox Church this is different and maybe even the norm. Sad really. The one great thing about the Lutheran Church is that we had an amazing reformer, he taught us that we are not bound to his words but only to the holy scriptures.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

In the smalcald articles, the term ever virgin only appears once, and only in the Latin version (and few English versions). In the official German version it is not present.

As to the sinlessness of Mary, here is what the WELS teaches:

We believe that Mary was a sinner from the moment of her conception just as every other human being who is conceived by the union of sinful parents (John 3:6, Psalm 51:5). Jesus was preserved from original sin because he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20-21). The fact that Mary calls God her Savior (Luke 1:46-47) is an indication that she recognized her need for a Savior from her sins. Nothing in Scripture gives any indication that Mary was without sin in her conception, birth or life. The greeting of Gabriel ("Hail Mary, full of grace," as Catholic sources often translate) does not mean that she was sinless, but that God was showing her tremendous grace and favor in choosing her to be the mother of the Savior.

 

[Qoheleth]

In the official German version it is not present.

That has been debated by Lutheran theologians, clergy and what not for some time now.


Q

 

[ByzantineDixie]

I'm guessing with the Orthodox Church this is different and maybe even the norm. Sad really.

Just to correct an impression...The Orthodox do venerate the Theotokos and ask her for her intercessory prayers (which is often termed "pray to") but worship is saved only for God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not so sad at all. Actually if you read the comments in the blog article I referenced you can get a sense of what the Orthodox believe about Mary and veneration and worship.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That has been debated by Lutheran theologians, clergy and what not for some time now.


Q

Got some sources on that?

 

[Qoheleth]

Luther, Melancthon, Chemnitz, Gerhard, Walther, Sasse and Pieper...

and many others have accepted the German translation (not just the Latin and the Latin has not been rejected either) to mean just that. Others argue it is not...so the debate continues


Q

 

[DaSeminarian]

Indeed, Luther seemed to feel differently...


"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."

(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)



and this was interesting to read...



"Luther's own theory on that was quite interesting. Conceived with original sin, yes, but at the infusion of the soul there was a cleansing by the Holy Spirit. He preached on this on the day of her conception (1523 I think) and he also repeated the theory years later - toward the close of his life in the 1540's. We are not bound by Luther's opinions, of course, but by the Sacred Scriptures. But we recognize that pious opinion has long held that the Most Holy Virgin (as our Symbols term her) was sinless in regard to actual sins as a special grace of God, but subject to death through the contagion of original sin from her birth." (Pr. Weedon - LCMS)


Q

I think the difference is the terms venerate and worship. Venerate is a word denoting her special place in our faith and that she was the Blessed Virgin who bore our Savior. Does venerate mean to worship her or pray to her? no it does not.

 

[Aibrean]

We don't worship Martin Luther either

 

[Lupinus]

Yes, she was a very special person. One worthy of note etc.

She was however a human, and therefor not worthy of worship. And not being prayed to.

 

[Confess]

Article XXII of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Lutherans testify that

blessed Mary prays for the church



​

The Apology goes on to state that Mary

is worthy of the highest honors and desires to have her example considered and followed

​

Part I of the Smalcald Articles, Jesus Christ is confessed to have been

born of the pure, holy, and ever virgin Mary

Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration), Lutherans confess

Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother's womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.

The Formula of Concord (Epitome) states in the clearest possible language the accession to the doctrine of Mary as the Theotokos:

we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not only a plain, ordinary, mere man but the veritable Son of God; for this reason she is rightly called, and truly is, the mother of God.

Q
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The first quote is taken out of context and is not XXII of the Augsburg Confession which talks about the Lord's Supper, not of the Saints. The true text comes from XXI of the Augsburg confession. Correctly put it says:

24] But where has this arrangement, to which he refers when he says that we ought to resort to the aid of the saints, been instituted by God? Let him produce an example or command from the Scriptures. Perhaps they derive this arrangement from the courts of kings, where friends must be employed as intercessors. But if a king has appointed a certain intercessor, he will not desire that cases be brought to him through others. Thus, since Christ has been appointed Intercessor and High Priest, why do we seek others? [What can the adversaries say in reply to this?]

25] Here and there this form of absolution is used: The passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the most blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints, be to thee for the remission of sins. Here the absolution is pronounced on the supposition that we are reconciled and accounted righteous not only by the merits of Christ, but also by the merits of the other saints

While it is true that Mary is the Mother of Jesus (she bore him and mothered him did she not?), this does not mean that we worship her, pray to her or make her to be more divine then she really is.

Like Moses, Adam and Eve and so many others in the Bible, Mary was a chosen vessel to do a work for God that no other human has ever done. For this she should be highly regarded and considered "most blessed".

As for her ever virginity. That is something that many disagree on, yet is not considered a doctrine of the church.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Marian dogma according to GCC....

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer, Mother of God, and to be revered as such. To state otherwise is heresy.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was perpetually virgin and I venerate her as such but am perfectly comfortable with those who don't. Mere pious opinion.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Queen of Heaven, as the mother of the Davidic King Jesus Christ, just as the mothers, not the brides, of Israelite kings were considered the queen. But while not merely pious opinion, I can understand how this can make people uncomfortable.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was not immaculately conceived and not without sin, as that violates the universality of Paul's statement that all have sinned.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was taken into heaven following her death and I venerate her assumption, but this is mere pious opinion and I am perfectly comfortable with those who feel otherwise.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is not Co-Redemptrix and not Co-Mediator. Christ alone is redeemer of our souls and mediator between us and the Father.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be venerated (dulia, not latria, the worship of God alone) in icons and hailed as queen (as in the rosary), but should not be saught out for intercessory prayer as that constitutes communion with the dead.

Anyway, that's my perspective.

 

[DaRev]

The Blessed Virgin Mary was perpetually virgin and I venerate her as such but am perfectly comfortable with those who don't. Mere pious opinion.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was taken into heaven following her death and I venerate her assumption, but this is mere pious opinion and I am perfectly comfortable with those who feel otherwise.

Your "dogmas" are neither Biblical nor in line with Lutheran theology.