Questions

[simchat_torah]

Contra,
The German deity Kirke comes from the Greek goddess Circe. Using Etymological tools we learn that Circe is the origins of the word Circle, circumfrence, circus, circulate, etc. As the Sun was the ultimate circle, Circe represented anything circular. Circe was the daughter of the sun deity Helios. Often sun worship included worship of Circe, her representation being that of "circles" (a woman is 'curvy' after all).

During the time English was being formed from German, or more specifically Old English or Anglo-Saxon, churches held pulpits in the center of the congregation. Everyone sat around in a circumfrence of the priest. The word Circe (also better known as Kirke) was easily associated as the circle of worship, and evolved into the word Church.
Thus, if one studies Etymology, Church has its origins in the word Kirke.

But I have to wonder, why so offended at this discovery? Many Christian traditions have found their origins in pagan practices, words, and customs.

Of course, this is only the Etymology of the word Church, and not its meaning. Etymology is merely the study of the origins of words, nothing more... no reason to get offended.

 

[ContraMundum]

Contra,
The German deity Kirke comes from the Greek goddess Circe. Using Etymological tools we learn that Circe is the origins of the word Circle, circumfrence, circus, circulate, etc. As the Sun was the ultimate circle, Circe represented anything circular. Circe was the daughter of the sun deity Helios. Often sun worship included worship of Circe, her representation being that of "circles" (a woman is 'curvy' after all).

Rubbish.

I have no idea what whacked-out site you got that from, but it's really, really far fetched. (Let me guess the POCM site?) Particularly in the light of the fact that the Greek Sun God was called Helios (sometimes also Titan and Apollo).

Kirke, or Circe, was the *daughter* of Helios. Not a Sun God at all, actually, but a nymph living on the island of Aeaea.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, eh?

By the way- ever looked at the pagan influences in Judaism, while you were at it?

 

[simchat_torah]

I have friends who study Etymology at the University of Illinois. One of my friends, who is also undergoing the ordination process via Anglican, is highly interested specifically in the Etymology of Chritsian words.

This didn't come from some "website". You can look up Helios' daughter's name in a library book. Check it out for yourself.


-Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

By the way- ever looked at the pagan influences in Judaism, while you were at it?

Yeah, it has influenced nearly every religion under the sun. Please don't think I'm accusing Christianty of anything specific. I was merely discussing the etymology of the word church.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yeah, it has influenced nearly every religion under the sun.

I meant it has *been* influenced by other religions.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

By the way- ever looked at the pagan influences in Judaism, while you were at it?

Please tell me what pagan influences there are in Judaism.

 

[muffler dragon]

Please tell me what pagan influences there are in Judaism.

There are a few that come to mind, but I'm not sure the legitimacy as I've never spent any time studying (just hearsay):

1) the Star of David.
2) the usage of the names of G-d that have a Canaanite heritage.

 

[fremen]

There are a few that come to mind, but I'm not sure the legitimacy as I've never spent any time studying (just hearsay):

1) the Star of David.

One can argue that it comes from paleo-hebrew. The dalet in paleo-hebrew is a triangle. David has two dalets, hence two triangles forming a star.

2) the usage of the names of G-d that have a Canaanite heritage.

Well, Judaism usually believes Hebrew is the original language, so that wouldn't apply. Also, the Torah says people in Canaan were familiar with Hashem, so it's only natural that they too knew His names.

Fremen

 

[muffler dragon]

One can argue that it comes from paleo-hebrew. The dalet in paleo-hebrew is a triangle. David has two dalets, hence two triangles forming a star.



Well, Judaism usually believes Hebrew is the original language, so that wouldn't apply. Also, the Torah says people in Canaan were familiar with Hashem, so it's only natural that they too knew His names.

Fremen

Fremen:

Please keep in mind that I was just stating two that I had heard before. I'm not going to defend, substantiate nor promote the things I put above. Just sharing.

Thanks for informing me about the dalets. I hadn't heard that before. Pretty cool.

 

[fremen]

Fremen:

Please keep in mind that I was just stating two that I had heard before. I'm not going to defend, substantiate nor promote the things I put above. Just sharing.

Thanks for informing me about the dalets. I hadn't heard that before. Pretty cool.

Got it.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Fremen:

Please keep in mind that I was just stating two that I had heard before. I'm not going to defend, substantiate nor promote the things I put above. Just sharing.

Thanks for informing me about the dalets. I hadn't heard that before. Pretty cool.

Yeah, paleo-Hebrew is pretty neat. I studied it for a short while a couple years ago.

 

[simchat_torah]

I have read in various old sources that the Star of David represented the Tetragrammatron. The Tetragrammatron generally refers to the 4 letter name of G-d, but also can refer to a very ancient angel who is implied to be the Messiah in various Rabbinic circles. Old Judaism, pre-Common Era, records various prophets having visions of this angelic host. These visions record the symbol (what looks like) a capitol letter V.

The "star" of david, as it came to be known, was the V in redundant formation, encircling his chest. Many have called this angel "The Morning Star". Others have called him "The Star of Israel". It later became the symbol of the nation of Israel.

Whether this story, or the possible Babylonian influence, is the true history of the Star of David will probably never be known unless further archeological artifacts surface.

-Yafet

 

[ContraMundum]

Please tell me what pagan influences there are in Judaism.

No way- if I say that, too many posters will not understand it.

Just let me hint one for you: Aristotle and Rambam, Guide for the Perplexed. No one disputes that he married Judaism and Greek philosophy and (therefore) religious prolegomena.

We won't go into the rest, becuase people will just over-react and freak out. People will assume that having pagan influence invalidates the religion, when it does not.

 

[muffler dragon]

No way- if I say that, too many posters will not understand it.

Just let me hint one for you: Aristotle and Rambam, Guide for the Perplexed. No one disputes that he married Judaism and Greek philosophy and (therefore) religious prolegomena.

We won't go into the rest, becuase people will just over-react and freak out. People will assume that having pagan influence invalidates the religion, when it does not.

I've heard a lot about Rambam's considerations regarding Aristotelian thought. I never really saw how that would cause any great discrepancies or issues. But then again, I believe there are valid points that can be gleaned from all religions.

 

[ContraMundum]

I've heard a lot about Rambam's considerations regarding Aristotelian thought. I never really saw how that would cause any great discrepancies or issues. But then again, I believe there are valid points that can be gleaned from all religions.

That's Ramban's genius. He blended with Aristotle, but did not let Aristotle write the book, so to speak. He pulled off a great balance.

I agree with your second point too.

 

[muffler dragon]

That's Ramban's genius. He blended with Aristotle, but did not let Aristotle write the book, so to speak. He pulled off a great balance.

I agree with your second point too.

Thanks. And just to ask: have you read Guide For The Perplexed? I've heard it's a difficult book to grasp. I have an online link to a translation, but I haven't felt the pull to read it. If you have, then do you have any recommendations on thought processes to keep in mind?

 

[ContraMundum]

Thanks. And just to ask: have you read Guide For The Perplexed? I've heard it's a difficult book to grasp. I have an online link to a translation, but I haven't felt the pull to read it. If you have, then do you have any recommendations on thought processes to keep in mind?

I read it a long, long, time ago. I have a copy somewhere around here. To be honest, I didn't think it was all that compelling as a read. Maybe if I read it again at this age I might find it more interesting.

Still, they say it is a vital book to swallow if you are interested in Judaism today. It is considered a milestone of sorts.

 

[simchat_torah]

Just let me hint one for you: Aristotle and Rambam, Guide for the Perplexed.

The difference is that most Jewish customs, practices, and theologies are not pagan in origin. Random individual Jews have held pagan beliefs, and I will also grant you that some pagan practice may have slipped through the cracks, but not on a wider scale.

However, in Christianity.... a much different tale can be told.

 

[ChavaK]

Very true. We would probably not be allowed to enter a Buddhist temple either. Though I have seen some Jews argue that they can enter one because Buddhism doesn't believe gods exist and therefore would not be considered a religion by halakhah. I, however, have not verified such claim.

Fremen

That's why I didn't mention Buddhism...I don't know
enough about it to know whether they believe in
one, no, or many gods....

 

[ContraMundum]

The difference is that most Jewish customs, practices, and theologies are not pagan in origin. Random individual Jews have held pagan beliefs, and I will also grant you that some pagan practice may have slipped through the cracks, but not on a wider scale.

Agreed.

However, in Christianity.... a much different tale can be told.

I'd say that what you said above also applies to the Christianity. A lot of attemps have been made in recent years to try to show "pagan" influences in the church, but so often they collapse under scrutiny. I don't think it's a terribly strong argument, to be frank. One can see pagan influence in the whole Judeo-Christian tradition, if one really opens the mind. Again, that is a topic best left to more stabilised forums though.

However, the point is this: what it true belongs to God. Even if the pagans got it first, or more emphasis, if it's true, it belongs to God. Also- God has a wonderful way of redeeming the lost and the sinful. That should never be forgotten. Even Israel took spoils from Egypt.