Questions

[simchat_torah]

We may use the word "church" in English. However, the concept is still Ekklesia.

Yes, but Ekklesia is not the same word as Synagogue in Greek. Two different words my friend

 

[Bananna]

Shalom Wags,
Thank you for your participation!
About salvation in Jesus, I still don't get it. Before Jesus, Jews had access to heaven. But now they don't unless they believe in Jesus? How is that not a change in Hashem's plans?



About that, allow me to explain: The idea of milk and meat mixed together is that you should not use for death (in this case, cooking) what has been given for life (milk).

However, Judaism does make a difference between mitzvot d'oraitah (that which Hashem instructed), mitzvot d'rabanan (that which the sages agreed upon) and halakhah (the way to perform the mitzvot). And trust me, I'm even generalizing. Sometimes I get the feeling that Messianics put them all in the same bag and claim that the sages added to the written text of the Torah. However, the New Testament also interprets the Torah. Wouldn't that be an addition? If not, then why is the Talmud considered an addition? And what of the Neviim and Ketuvim? Wouldn't it be a double standard to single out the Talmud and say it is changing the Torah?

And about legalism, what makes something a legalistic practice? I would say that defining that thing as a matter of life and death, of being good or wicked, of going to gan eden or going to hell. But Judaism never said such thing about kashrut. Yes, the sages tell us to avoid poultry and milk. But no Jew is considered to be in a lower standing before his shül just because he ate a chicken cheeseburger. In fact, no matter what sin he may have committed (even if he's walked into a church, which in Judaism is one the greatest sins a Jew can commit), he can still be a ba'al tefillah, he counts for minyan, he can do aliyah and no-one is allowed by Jewish law to embarrass him because of his behavior.

You know how I would define Judaism?
Everyone has choices to make. Judaism is having the millennia-old experience of our sages to help us make the right choices.

Kol tov,
Fremen

There are Jewish souls and Jewish religion and Jewish nationality and Jewish decendants. Depends on the usage of the word to what is meant for me.

Legalism is man made law above love. However it is true that many who claim to be Christian and against legalism will also try to confine anothers' observance of God's word with man made laws and still claim adamantly that the Sages were wrong. A blanket statement cannot be made about Jews or Messianics.

After arguing with a Jew many points of Torah, He told me I was Jew based upon my beliefs and left off debating anymore points with me. I am quite gentile though by birth and have never converted. Probably one of the oddest professions I've ever heard and I never was able to ask him what he meant. Maybe he was one that believes in lost tribes.

So I've basically learned to take what each person believes as an individual statement that does not necessarily represent any other group on the face of the earth.

Anyhow good to see you here, you have some very interesting points of view.
bananna

 

[fremen]

Er... actually guys, with all due respect, this is not correct.

First of all, church does not come from ekklesia. The Spanish word for church, Iglesia, does. But church comes from Kirsh. In Greek mythology, Kirke was the daughter of Helios, the sun god. Her symbol was a circle. In fact, the words kirk and circle both have the same root (kirk, connected to such goddess). In Greek mythology, sun worship of Helios and Kirke was conducted in a round-shaped place called KIRSH. Church comes from that word.

As for church and synagogue meaning the same thing (despite their etimology), I beg to differ. A synagogue has a three-fold definition of what it's supposed to be: a Beit Knesset (house of gathering), yes. And mind you, gathering not only for the purpose of performing a religious service. A Beit Tefillah, that is, a house of prayer - a place where a minyan can meet. And, most important of all, a Beit Midrash, which is a house where one studies Torah. Of all these, the most important mission of a synagogue is to be a house of Torah study. Torah study is the most imporant aspect of Jewish faith. A church doesn't have exactly the same objectives.

But anyway, even if the objectives were similar, the halakhah forbids us because of the worship of a Triune G-d, which is something Judaism strictly forbids. Not because the church has different functions and roles.

And besides, why the surprise? I have several protestant friends who would NEVER enter a Catholic church or a mosque. So this isn't unheard of. And again, I'm not saying I agree. Halakhah is not something I decide for myself. I simply have the choice of following or not.

Gute morgen,
Fremen

 

[Talmidah]

Except that it really does not matter what word is used. Messianic congregations call their places of worship synagogues. We are still not allowed to enter those either, even if they do not call it a 'church'.

 

[Talmidah]

Halakhah is not something I decide for myself. I simply have the choice of following or not.

 

[ChavaK]

Except that it really does not matter what word is used. Messianic congregations call their places of worship synagogues. We are still not allowed to enter those either, even if they do not call it a 'church'.

Agreed, and I would assume we are also not
able to enter a Hindu temple for the same
reason- I don't think this would be a ban only
on churches/messianic synagogues, although
these are most likely what a Jew is going
to come into contact with.
So Christians should not feel singled out....

 

[fremen]

Very true. We would probably not be allowed to enter a Buddhist temple either. Though I have seen some Jews argue that they can enter one because Buddhism doesn't believe gods exist and therefore would not be considered a religion by halakhah. I, however, have not verified such claim.

Fremen

Agreed, and I would assume we are also not
able to enter a Hindu temple for the same
reason- I don't think this would be a ban only
on churches/messianic synagogues, although
these are most likely what a Jew is going
to come into contact with.
So Christians should not feel singled out....

 

[Talmidah]

Agreed, and I would assume we are also not
able to enter a Hindu temple for the same
reason- I don't think this would be a ban only
on churches/messianic synagogues, although
these are most likely what a Jew is going
to come into contact with.
So Christians should not feel singled out....

Of course! It has nothing to do with being Christian, per se. Simply avodah zarah.

 

[christianmomof3]

I too, can confirm what everyone else said. Halakha certainly does forbid a Jew from entering a church as it is considered a place of avodah zerah. If Conservative or Reform Jews do not hold to this, I don't know. I'm Orthodox so I can't speak for them.

I was raised a Reform Jew and never heard that. In fact, my parents allowed me to go to churches with friends when I spent the night with them and I was allowed to go Christmas carolling with my Camp Fire Girls group and we had Easter egg hunts.
But, I do remember when I was 5 years old singing the song "Jesus loves me" because I had learned it at the Christian Kindergarten I went to (there were no public school kindergartens there at that time, and I think that church one was the only one around) and my mom told me that "we don't sing that song".

Actually, no.

The word that is typically translated as "church" comes from the Greek word Ekklesia (holy gathering). Synagogue comes form the Greek Sinagoguae (sp? I guess it doesn't matter as it is a transliteration). The words Church and Synagogue are derived from wholly different words in the Greek.

As for the origin of the English word Church, that is different. It comes from the German word Kirke, from the name of the sun deity.

-Yafet

We may use the word "church" in English. However, the concept is still Ekklesia. You will find that in other languages, Christians use words which resemble that, such as Iglesia in Spanish. A rose by any other name still smells as sweet. If Christians called it a CAVE, it would still be Ekklesia in the scriptures.

So RebbeCohen's point still stands. Ekklesia and Synogogue both mean assembly.

I find it strange that a greek word was adopted for the house of prayer. Why not knesset? Oh well...

Er... actually guys, with all due respect, this is not correct.

First of all, church does not come from ekklesia. The Spanish word for church, Iglesia, does. But church comes from Kirsh. In Greek mythology, Kirke was the daughter of Helios, the sun god. Her symbol was a circle. In fact, the words kirk and circle both have the same root (kirk, connected to such goddess). In Greek mythology, sun worship of Helios and Kirke was conducted in a round-shaped place called KIRSH. Church comes from that word.

As for church and synagogue meaning the same thing (despite their etimology), I beg to differ. A synagogue has a three-fold definition of what it's supposed to be: a Beit Knesset (house of gathering), yes. And mind you, gathering not only for the purpose of performing a religious service. A Beit Tefillah, that is, a house of prayer - a place where a minyan can meet. And, most important of all, a Beit Midrash, which is a house where one studies Torah. Of all these, the most important mission of a synagogue is to be a house of Torah study. Torah study is the most imporant aspect of Jewish faith. A church doesn't have exactly the same objectives.

But anyway, even if the objectives were similar, the halakhah forbids us because of the worship of a Triune G-d, which is something Judaism strictly forbids. Not because the church has different functions and roles.

And besides, why the surprise? I have several protestant friends who would NEVER enter a Catholic church or a mosque. So this isn't unheard of. And again, I'm not saying I agree. Halakhah is not something I decide for myself. I simply have the choice of following or not.

Gute morgen,
Fremen

That is interesting about the meaning of the words synagogue and the origin of the word "church". I had not heard those things before. I do know that the word in the Bible that is translated as church is ekklesia as was pointed out and it means the assembly of the called out ones. It is not the same as a synagogue. The church is not a building or an organization. It is the Body of Christ, a group of people who are filled with Christ as their life. It is a living organism with Christ as the head, not a building or an organization or a synagogue.

 

[Talmidah]

I was raised a Reform Jew and never heard that. In fact, my parents allowed me to go to churches with friends when I spent the night with them and I was allowed to go Christmas carolling with my Camp Fire Girls group and we had Easter egg hunts.
But, I do remember when I was 5 years old singing the song "Jesus loves me" because I had learned it at the Christian Kindergarten I went to (there were no public school kindergartens there at that time, and I think that church one was the only one around) and my mom told me that "we don't sing that song".

This is probably one of the main reasons why most Jews who end up as MJs are not those from observant (Orthodox) homes.

 

[fremen]

I was raised a Reform Jew and never heard that. In fact, my parents allowed me to go to churches with friends when I spent the night with them and I was allowed to go Christmas carolling with my Camp Fire Girls group and we had Easter egg hunts.
But, I do remember when I was 5 years old singing the song "Jesus loves me" because I had learned it at the Christian Kindergarten I went to (there were no public school kindergartens there at that time, and I think that church one was the only one around) and my mom told me that "we don't sing that song".

And THAT could be one of the reasons why halakhah is against it. An Orthodox Jew could look at the situation and say that you nowadays are a Christian exactly because your family allowed this. Assimilation is considered Judaism's #1 enemy. Again, I'm not saying *I* think this way, I'm only stating what would probably be said of your case.

Fremen

 

[christianmomof3]

This is probably one of the main reasons why most Jews who end up as MJs are not those from observant homes.

I don't know. Because I think we were fairly observant for Reform Jews. I went to and later worked at Jewish daycamps, I was in two Jewish youth groups as a teenager - a Reform Jewish one and B'nai B'rith and I was very active in both. We were quite active in the Jewish community.

And THAT could be one of the reasons why halakhah is against it. An Orthodox Jew could look at the situation and say that you nowadays are a Christian exactly because your family allowed this. Assimilation is considered Judaism's #1 enemy. Again, I'm not saying *I* think this way, I'm only stating what would probably be said of your case.

Fremen

I look at the being able to participate in Christmas and Easter stuff and I see that what I participated in was all of the pagan practices. None of it had anything to do with Christ. I don't celebrate Christmas and Easter now, nor did we when I was a child other than Santa and the Easter Bunny . So I would not say those things are why I am a Christian now since those are things I don't do.

 

[Kalanit]

I'm wondering where you get the information sometimes... I admit, our Messianic Synagogue may be rare in the MJish movement ... I would really have to do some research to find out what the 'norm' is...
But we really do go to a Synagogue - complete with a house of gathering, prayer, and study. It's a Synagogue inside and out. It absolutely does NOT resemble a Church at all. We have the bima, ark, litergury... People from church visit and get put off because it "looks too Jewish" ... well, that's because it is.

The MJish place I went before - considered itself a "congregation" because it was not yet a Synagogue. We (at least I didn't - I don't know about others) never called it a synagogue - because it wasn't.

I can look down my husband's family line and see how a set of Orthodox Jews raised kids that became Reformed and their child rejected the Jewish faith altogether - and his kid was confused - going from his grandparents' Shul back to his dad's Church. Interesting, both the Jewish Reformed grandparents and the "Christian" father had lots of "religion", but lacked a certain element of faith and true relationship with ha Shem...

 

[Kalanit]

My father in law is a "Christian Jew" or "Hebrew Christian" ... he is almost into the "self-hating Jew" category. He is "Jewish" through genetics, and carries a Jewish surname - but he has basically become a Gentile and as of right now - he shows no signs of wanting to leave the comfy cozy gentile world and take up his G-d given calling as a Jew.

My husband is sort of 'turning the ship around' ... he is (we both are) in the process of learning and doing all the stuff he missed out on, not being raised in a Jewish environment - starting with an adult B'nei Mitzvah program... he get really frustrated sometimes because he had nothing passed down to him as a kid - if we had not taken the sharp turn in another direction, assimilation probably would have been complete for that entire family line.

 

[fremen]

I don't know. Because I think we were fairly observant for Reform Jews. I went to and later worked at Jewish daycamps, I was in two Jewish youth groups as a teenager - a Reform Jewish one and B'nai B'rith and I was very active in both. We were quite active in the Jewish community.

There's a great difference between being observant and being active in the Jewish community. An observant Jew is a Jew that lives a life in accordance to Jewish Law. Of course there are degrees to such observation. But Reform Jews are usually not very observant Jews.

I look at the being able to participate in Christmas and Easter stuff and I see that what I participated in was all of the pagan practices. None of it had anything to do with Christ. I don't celebrate Christmas and Easter now, nor did we when I was a child other than Santa and the Easter Bunny . So I would not say those things are why I am a Christian now since those are things I don't do.

Maybe so, but an Orthodox would probably view your active involvement in church activities as the reason for your assimilation.

Fremen

 

[Talmidah]

Maybe so, but an Orthodox would probably view your active involvement in church activities as the reason for your assimilation.

Not the only reason. More as a symptom of a larger problem in relation to halacha.

 

[simchat_torah]

First of all, church does not come from ekklesia

Yes, the Etymology of the word does not come from Ekklesia. The Etymology comes from Kirke (German). However, in the Greek NT, Ekklesia is translated into English as "church".

Thus, the translation of Ekklesia (as has been used by Christians) is "church".

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Not the only reason. More as a symptom of a larger problem in relation to halacha.

Agreed!

 

[ContraMundum]

As for the origin of the English word Church, that is different. It comes from the German word Kirke, from the name of the sun deity.

-Yafet

OK...now this is getting ridiculous.

The Germanic Sun God was Balder, or Sol.

The word "Church" derives from the Germanic word "kirke", which derives from the Greek words "kyriakon doma", which means "Lord's House".

If you had studied Greek, you would know that the pronounciation sounds a lot like "kirke".

Even wikipedia knows this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk

 

[ContraMundum]

Yes, the Etymology of the word does not come from Ekklesia. The Etymology comes from Kirke (German). However, in the Greek NT, Ekklesia is translated into English as "church".

Thus, the translation of Ekklesia (as has been used by Christians) is "church".

Christian theology states that "Ekklesia" means "those called out" ("Ek" = out of ; "kaleo"= to be called).

However, the word is used three ways in the NT- the people, the congregation of saints, and a local congregation. In each case, it refers back to those called out of the World.