Questions

[simchat_torah]

Anyone who is actively trying to pursue a torah faithful lifestyle is "observant". I know plenty of Reform Jews who are "observant".

And by the way... yes, Reform does have a Beit Din (halachic council).

But I also know Reform Jews (Conservative & a few Orthodox for that matter) who have no interest in pursuing Torah as a holy lifestyle.

But again, reiterating what I stated earlier:

I haven't met a single one on this website. I have only met 2 ever in MJ circles outside of the internet.

Of those two, one is questionable as to whether he was telling the truth about being raised Jewish.

So yeah... I'd say "plenty" is an exaggeration... to the max.

-J

 

[muffler dragon]

In fact, I even defended it in a couple of threads. But, if my asking questions is offensive to you, then I will bow out of this forum. I'm just not used to being treated with such rudeness. I thank all of you who have kindly answered my questions.

Dank!

Fremen

LOL! Catching a little bit o' the funk that goes around this joint, huh?

Maybe we should have started off on better feet.

 

[A_Pioneer]

Wow, that was so uncalled for. Is this how you treat those that visit your forum wishing to understand your theology?

I only posted such questions because:
a) I wanted to understand your theology. I know there are answers to the questions I made. I'm not trying to prove how smart I am with unanswerable questions. I'm only interested in WHAT those answers are.

b) I saw several misconceptions about the Jewish faith and wanted to clear them up. Maybe understand them better, see if somehow I misinterpreted things.

I didn't mean to be offensive towards Christianity. In fact, I even defended it in a couple of threads. But, if my asking questions is offensive to you, then I will bow out of this forum. I'm just not used to being treated with such rudeness. I thank all of you who have kindly answered my questions.

Dank!

Fremen

I beg your pardon, you missed the point!
I was not speaking at you, I was telling you that we Americans have a habit of taking ourselves as the statement "Brilliant men like you can justify your every inconsistancy.(Wisdom is justified by her deeds.) Mt.11:19 Living Bible. We Justify all our inconsistancies.
Please forgive me if I offended you. That was not intended. I am very sorry!

Shalom u'vrachot

 

[ChavaK]

And I have never heard a Rabbi say it was a "sin to walk into a church". "

'tis true, we are forbidden to enter a church, even
if it is for a non-religous purpose. I do not believe
that Reform or Conservative hold by this though...

 

[simchat_torah]

that Reform or Conservative hold by this though...

Not to my knowledge (I attend conservative... well, before I moved anyway ... gotta find a new synagogue).

-J

 

[Talmidah]

Sorry that is wrong - it is not a sin for Jew to enter a church. Of course if you have something to back that sort of statement I'd be happy to see it.

He's right. Jews are not to go into a church.

 

[Wags]

Well I wasn't raised orthodox - so I guess that is why I've never heard that said before. It certainly isn't something that is in Torah.

 

[fremen]

I'm the one to apologize then. English is not my first language.

Kol tov,
Fremen

I beg your pardon, you missed the point!
I was not speaking at you, I was telling you that we Americans have a habit of taking ourselves as the statement "Brilliant men like you can justify your every inconsistancy.(Wisdom is justified by her deeds.) Mt.11:19 Living Bible. We Justify all our inconsistancies.
Please forgive me if I offended you. That was not intended. I am very sorry!

Shalom u'vrachot

 

[simchat_torah]

It certainly isn't something that is in Torah.

I wouldn't imagine so, since "church" has only been around for under a couple of thousand years and the Torah was written much before that

 

[fremen]

Wags,
Shalom!
I mean no offense to you or to anyone and by no means did I ever intend to imply that you were ignorant. I apologize if that is how it sounded in any way.

However, I have seen Judaism misrepresented here by some posters, and that is why I wanted to clarify things.

I think people having misconceptions of other people's faiths is very common. Ask a mormon if protestantism understands mormonism. Ask a catholic if the SDAs represent them faithfully. Ask a messianic if a counter-missionary orthodox Jew has an honest knowledge of their faith. The answer, in almost all cases, is a resounding NO.

Why?

Because usually those who leave one faith are either not people with not much knowledge of the previous faith, or who are unhappy with the previous faith and as such as a very negative bias. The outcome is usually the same: the description of their former faith is twisted.

I am here for three reasons:
A) To learn more about Messianics and Hebrew-Roots Christianity
B) To have a healthy Jewish-Christian dialogue
C) To help clarifiy Judaism so that we can have a better understanding of each other

I mean no harm at all. In fact, I even disagree that our halakhah doesn't allow a Jew to enter a pro-Zionism event in a church, but allows a Jew to enter a mosque in the Iran. But I can't change halakhah.

Gute nacht,
Fremen

You seem to be laboring under the false impression that messianics don't know anything about Judasim. And while there are many gentiles within the movement - there are also plenty of Jews who were raised in observant homes.

 

[fremen]

It depends on how one interprets Torah. Torah prohibits use from getting involved with what is considered idolatry by Torah standards. According to our sages, the worship of a Triune G-d compromises monotheism, hence making a church a "house of avodah zarah" by our halakhah.

Fremen

I wouldn't imagine so, since "church" has only been around for under a couple of thousand years and the Torah was written much before that

 

[ChavaK]

What do you consider observant? Orthodox only, or does Conservative cut it with you? And how about Reform?

If you use the term "observant" it is generally
understood in the Jewish community to
be synanomous with "Orthodox"....

 

[ChavaK]

Sorry that is wrong - it is not a sin for Jew to enter a church. Of course if you have something to back that sort of statement I'd be happy to see it.

Yes, we are forbidden to enter a church, for the
reason Fremen stated.
I don't have the exact citations, but if I remember
correctly this is from an interpretation of the Mishna
by the Rambam, from the Talmud, from modern
responsa and is based on a pasuk from the
Torah regarding "not looking
upon idols". I can look up the exact citations if
you really need the details...

 

[RebbeCohen]

where does one begin? the word church is the same as the word synagogue, it is a greek word: epsynagogue, to congretage, hence congregation.

a church, synagogue or congregation is not a building, it is the gathering of people.

we are not forbidden to enter a gentile church, we can go to weddings, funerals and other events just as our gentile friends attend our weddings, funerals and bar/bat mitzvahs.

let's not get silly about things, above all, jews are noted for having common sense; lets use it.

 

[ChavaK]

I've never heard that said before. It certainly isn't something that is in Torah.

Actually, I believe it comes from a verse in
the Torah regarding not looking upon idols.
I will have to look it up and give you the
pasuk...

 

[ChavaK]

we are not forbidden to enter a gentile church, we can go to weddings, funerals and other events just as our gentile friends attend our weddings, funerals and bar/bat mitzvahs.

let's not get silly about things, above all, jews are noted for having common sense; lets use it.

We are forbidden to enter a church, even if for
a wedding, a funeral, or any other event.
It has nothing to do with "common sense" and
everything to with following HaShem's commandments...

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Originally Posted by Wags
Sorry that is wrong - it is not a sin for Jew to enter a church. Of course if you have something to back that sort of statement I'd be happy to see it.

I too, can confirm what everyone else said. Halakha certainly does forbid a Jew from entering a church as it is considered a place of avodah zerah. If Conservative or Reform Jews do not hold to this, I don't know. I'm Orthodox so I can't speak for them.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

If you use the term "observant" it is generally
understood in the Jewish community to
be synanomous with "Orthodox"....

Yep, I agree with Chava. Observant is generally synonymous with "Orthodox." And very, very few Jews who become Xtian or Messianic grew up in an observant home.

 

[simchat_torah]

where does one begin? the word church is the same as the word synagogue, it is a greek word: epsynagogue, to congretage, hence congregation.

Actually, no.

The word that is typically translated as "church" comes from the Greek word Ekklesia (holy gathering). Synagogue comes form the Greek Sinagoguae (sp? I guess it doesn't matter as it is a transliteration). The words Church and Synagogue are derived from wholly different words in the Greek.

As for the origin of the English word Church, that is different. It comes from the German word Kirke, from the name of the sun deity.

-Yafet

 

[GeratTzedek]

Actually, no.

The word that is typically translated as "church" comes from the Greek word Ekklesia (holy gathering). Synagogue comes form the Greek Sinagoguae (sp? I guess it doesn't matter as it is a transliteration). The words Church and Synagogue are derived from wholly different words in the Greek.

As for the origin of the English word Church, that is different. It comes from the German word Kirke, from the name of the sun deity.

-Yafet

We may use the word "church" in English. However, the concept is still Ekklesia. You will find that in other languages, Christians use words which resemble that, such as Iglesia in Spanish. A rose by any other name still smells as sweet. If Christians called it a CAVE, it would still be Ekklesia in the scriptures.

So RebbeCohen's point still stands. Ekklesia and Synogogue both mean assembly.

I find it strange that a greek word was adopted for the house of prayer. Why not knesset? Oh well...