Questions

[fremen]

Shalom all,
Here are some genuine questions for you:

1 - Do you believe that all of Jesus' followers are grafted into Israel? If so, then how come they don't have to follow the commandments of Israel? Why only the blessings, and not the duties?

2 - If you agree that Israel is the bride of Hashem, and the Church is also the bride of Hashem, then does Hashem have two brides? Wouldn't that be polygamy?

3 - Christianity seems to agree that Judaism was the way of Hashem before Jesus walked the earth. OK. So Jews were going to heaven before Jesus. But why would Hashem send a Jewish savior that would, after His death, automatically send Jews to hell? If you argue that Torah is still valid (Judaism agrees) because Hashem doesn't change (Judaism agrees), then why would Hashem change His mind about the salvation of the Jews?

4 - Why is the Oral Torah not accepted among Messianics, though it is practiced at random (ie. lighting Shabbos candles, the whole synagogue rites, etc.)?

5 - Where do you get the notion that Oral Torah is legalism?

Dank!

Fremen

 

[Wags]

Shalom all,
Here are some genuine questions for you:

1 - Do you believe that all of Jesus' followers are grafted into Israel? If so, then how come they don't have to follow the commandments of Israel? Why only the blessings, and not the duties? Good Question - I personally believe that the adopted children have the same rights and responibilites as the natural born children. (Isaiah 56)

2 - If you agree that Israel is the bride of Hashem, and the Church is also the bride of Hashem, then does Hashem have two brides? Wouldn't that be polygamy? If gentiles who beleive are grafted/adopted into Israel then there is only one bride.

3 - Christianity seems to agree that Judaism was the way of Hashem before Jesus walked the earth. OK. So Jews were going to heaven before Jesus. But why would Hashem send a Jewish savior that would, after His death, automatically send Jews to hell? If you argue that Torah is still valid (Judaism agrees) because Hashem doesn't change (Judaism agrees), then why would Hashem change His mind about the salvation of the Jews? The plan for the salvation of mankind was put into motion in Gan Eden after sin entered the world. I believe that Messiah Yeshua was sent by HaShem just as was promised. There was no change of plan, the only thing that happened was that some accept and some reject him.

4 - Why is the Oral Torah not accepted among Messianics, though it is practiced at random (ie. lighting Shabbos candles, the whole synagogue rites, etc.)? It isn't rejected outright, rather examined carefully to be sure it aligns with Torah - there are occasions when it does not.

5 - Where do you get the notion that Oral Torah is legalism? It is called legalism, because it often goes beyond what is in Torah. An example is kosher. Scripture simply says do not seeth a kid in its mothers milk. Yet Oral tradition states you are not to eat chicken with dairy - I have chickens, they have never given milk! So how could I cook one in its mothers milk? While it isn't wrong to keep this extra level of kashrut, it isn't a violation of Torah not to do it.

Dank!

Fremen

FYI - The above are my personal beliefs, not eveyone here shares those same beliefs.

 

[simchat_torah]

4 - Why is the Oral Torah not accepted among Messianics, though it is practiced at random (ie. lighting Shabbos candles, the whole synagogue rites, etc.)?

Good question

 

[fremen]

Shalom Wags,
Thank you for your participation!
About salvation in Jesus, I still don't get it. Before Jesus, Jews had access to heaven. But now they don't unless they believe in Jesus? How is that not a change in Hashem's plans?

I have chickens, they have never given milk!

About that, allow me to explain: The idea of milk and meat mixed together is that you should not use for death (in this case, cooking) what has been given for life (milk).

However, Judaism does make a difference between mitzvot d'oraitah (that which Hashem instructed), mitzvot d'rabanan (that which the sages agreed upon) and halakhah (the way to perform the mitzvot). And trust me, I'm even generalizing. Sometimes I get the feeling that Messianics put them all in the same bag and claim that the sages added to the written text of the Torah. However, the New Testament also interprets the Torah. Wouldn't that be an addition? If not, then why is the Talmud considered an addition? And what of the Neviim and Ketuvim? Wouldn't it be a double standard to single out the Talmud and say it is changing the Torah?

And about legalism, what makes something a legalistic practice? I would say that defining that thing as a matter of life and death, of being good or wicked, of going to gan eden or going to hell. But Judaism never said such thing about kashrut. Yes, the sages tell us to avoid poultry and milk. But no Jew is considered to be in a lower standing before his shül just because he ate a chicken cheeseburger. In fact, no matter what sin he may have committed (even if he's walked into a church, which in Judaism is one the greatest sins a Jew can commit), he can still be a ba'al tefillah, he counts for minyan, he can do aliyah and no-one is allowed by Jewish law to embarrass him because of his behavior.

You know how I would define Judaism?
Everyone has choices to make. Judaism is having the millennia-old experience of our sages to help us make the right choices.

Kol tov,
Fremen

 

[A_Pioneer]

We are all too fond of, "Brilliant men like you, can justify your every inconsistancy." But, it's okay now because--.

I am only pleased the the Beit Din in Acts 15 gave us dummies time to become knowledgable and committ all that apply.

Shalom

 

[simchat_torah]

I am only pleased the the Beit Din in Acts 15 gave us dummies time to become knowledgable and committ all that apply.

hehehe, cute

 

[GeratTzedek]

LUNCH BREAK! How fast can I type my reply???

1 - Do you believe that all of Jesus' followers are grafted into Israel? If so, then how come they don't have to follow the commandments of Israel? Why only the blessings, and not the duties?

It has never been required for righteous gentiles to become Jews. Even before Yeshua, there were two kinds of gentiles in the synagogues: those preparing for conversion, and those with no interest in conversion but who followed the Noachide covenant. There was a place in the temple where these gentiles were allowed, as well as places they were forbidden. In Acts 15, the Council of Yerushalayim CLEARLY decided that gentile believers are to be treated as righteous gentiles, and not required to be circumcised or come under the Mosaic covenant. They are grafted onto Israel, the People of God, but not Israel.

2 - If you agree that Israel is the bride of Hashem, and the Church is also the bride of Hashem, then does Hashem have two brides? Wouldn't that be polygamy?

Metaphors and analogies are fantastic. But don't take them too far. Know when to stop. Otherwise you will end up with God having hands and feet.

3 - Christianity seems to agree that Judaism was the way of Hashem before Jesus walked the earth. OK. So Jews were going to heaven before Jesus. But why would Hashem send a Jewish savior that would, after His death, automatically send Jews to hell? If you argue that Torah is still valid (Judaism agrees) because Hashem doesn't change (Judaism agrees), then why would Hashem change His mind about the salvation of the Jews?

Who told you that non-believing Jews are automatically going to hell? They are part of the elect. Read Romans 11. "In regards to election, they are loved for the sake of the patriarchs... so all Israel shall be saved."

4 - Why is the Oral Torah not accepted among Messianics, though it is practiced at random (ie. lighting Shabbos candles, the whole synagogue rites, etc.)?

Who told you that all Messianics have no regard for oral Torah? To be Jewish is to be part of Jewish community. To be part of Jewish community is to accept oral Torah. If a person rejects oral Torah, they are a Christian, and not part of the Jewish community. If they are a Jew and reject oral Torah, this is sad, because it creates disunity in Israel. It is also plainly and simply impracticle. Torah must be interpreted, and for the sake of community such interpretation must be uniform. Without oral Torah you have chaos, every MAN doing what is right in HIS own eyes. I recommend to you that you peruse the website of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council. http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

5 - Where do you get the notion that Oral Torah is legalism?

It comes from gentile Protestant Sola Scriptura ideas. Messianic Judaism is still shaking off assimilation.

Shalom

 

[fremen]

Wow, that was so uncalled for. Is this how you treat those that visit your forum wishing to understand your theology?

I only posted such questions because:
a) I wanted to understand your theology. I know there are answers to the questions I made. I'm not trying to prove how smart I am with unanswerable questions. I'm only interested in WHAT those answers are.

b) I saw several misconceptions about the Jewish faith and wanted to clear them up. Maybe understand them better, see if somehow I misinterpreted things.

I didn't mean to be offensive towards Christianity. In fact, I even defended it in a couple of threads. But, if my asking questions is offensive to you, then I will bow out of this forum. I'm just not used to being treated with such rudeness. I thank all of you who have kindly answered my questions.

Dank!

Fremen

We are all too fond of, "Brilliant men like you, can justify your every inconsistancy." But, it's okay now because--.

I am only pleased the the Beit Din in Acts 15 gave us dummies time to become knowledgable and committ all that apply.

Shalom

 

[Wags]

The various sects of Judism accept/practice oral torah differently - so why is it surprising that messianics do as well?

 

[Wags]

Shalom Wags,
Thank you for your participation!
About salvation in Jesus, I still don't get it. Before Jesus, Jews had access to heaven. But now they don't unless they believe in Jesus? How is that not a change in Hashem's plans?

Who offered the sacrifices? The priests. Yeshua is our High Priest who is minstering on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary now. As far as access to heaven - that did not change. The only thing that changes was the priesthood.


About that, allow me to explain: The idea of milk and meat mixed together is that you should not use for death (in this case, cooking) what has been given for life (milk).

However, Judaism does make a difference between mitzvot d'oraitah (that which Hashem instructed), mitzvot d'rabanan (that which the sages agreed upon) and halakhah (the way to perform the mitzvot). And trust me, I'm even generalizing. Sometimes I get the feeling that Messianics put them all in the same bag and claim that the sages added to the written text of the Torah. However, the New Testament also interprets the Torah. Wouldn't that be an addition? If not, then why is the Talmud considered an addition? And what of the Neviim and Ketuvim? Wouldn't it be a double standard to single out the Talmud and say it is changing the Torah?

And about legalism, what makes something a legalistic practice? I would say that defining that thing as a matter of life and death, of being good or wicked, of going to gan eden or going to hell. But Judaism never said such thing about kashrut. Yes, the sages tell us to avoid poultry and milk. But no Jew is considered to be in a lower standing before his shül just because he ate a chicken cheeseburger. In fact, no matter what sin he may have committed (even if he's walked into a church, which in Judaism is one the greatest sins a Jew can commit), he can still be a ba'al tefillah, he counts for minyan, he can do aliyah and no-one is allowed by Jewish law to embarrass him because of his behavior.

You know how I would define Judaism?
Everyone has choices to make. Judaism is having the millennia-old experience of our sages to help us make the right choices.

Kol tov,
Fremen

I am well aware of what the various sects of Judasim teaches. And I have never heard a Rabbi say it was a "sin to walk into a church". Let alone say it was one of the "greatest".

 

[fremen]

Shalom Wags,
Thank you again for your participation!
About the Oral Torah and the different sects of Judaism, I would like to clarify a few things:

A) No Jewish sect claims the Oral Torah is uninspired, or legalist in any way

B) Jewish sects practicing what is considered to be the PURE FORM of Judaism (meaning the Orthodox sects) all accept the Oral Torah as binding.

C) Reform and Conservative Judaism also accept/practice the written Torah according to, well, what they see fit (it varies from group to group).

D) There's a difference between differing in halakhah and differing in Torah

Kol tov,
Fremen

The various sects of Judism accept/practice oral torah differently - so why is it surprising that messianics do as well?

 

[fremen]

Who offered the sacrifices? The priests. Yeshua is our High Priest who is minstering on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary now. As far as access to heaven - that did not change. The only thing that changes was the priesthood

Understood. Thank you so much!

I am well aware of what the various sects of Judasim teaches. And I have never heard a Rabbi say it was a "sin to walk into a church". Let alone say it was one of the "greatest".

Trust me on that one. A church is considered a "house of avodah zarah", and it is one of the greatest sins for a Jew to enter one. I'm not saying *I* agree with that. I'm simply stating what Judaism says.

As a side note, since Islam shares the same kind of monotheism that Judaism holds, it is not considered sinful for a Jew to enter a mosque and even attend its service. But by Jewish halakhah it's strictly forbidden to attend a Christian service of any kind.

Kol tov,
Fremen

 

[stone]

The written Torah says to circumcise. The oral Torah is that which gives specific instructions on exactly how to carry out that command.

This is an example of what the oral Torah is, your questions imply to me that you don't understand what it is.

 

[stone]

[/color][/b]

But by Jewish halakhah it's strictly forbidden to attend a Christian service of any kind.

Kol tov,
Fremen

Interesting, and i would like to see exactly where this is written. Do you have the location of where this is written?

 

[fremen]

Shalom Stone,
Actually, I am quite aware of what the Oral Torah is. Where in the OP did I state something different than what you posted? What I don't understand (and hence the reason for my asking) is the Messianic approach to it.

Fremen

The written Torah says to circumcise. The oral Torah is that which gives specific instructions on exactly how to carry out that command.

This is an example of what the oral Torah is, your questions imply to me that you don't understand what it is.

 

[fremen]

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=276&o=2400

That help?
The site is Chabad-owned by the way.

This is a well-known fact in Judaism (ie prohibition of going to a church). This probably would also extend to a Messianic synagogue.

Fremen

Interesting, and i would like to see exactly where this is written. Do you have the location of where this is written?

 

[Wags]

[/color][/b]

Understood. Thank you so much!



Trust me on that one. A church is considered a "house of avodah zarah", and it is one of the greatest sins for a Jew to enter one. I'm not saying *I* agree with that. I'm simply stating what Judaism says.

As a side note, since Islam shares the same kind of monotheism that Judaism holds, it is not considered sinful for a Jew to enter a mosque and even attend its service. But by Jewish halakhah it's strictly forbidden to attend a Christian service of any kind.

Kol tov,
Fremen

Sorry that is wrong - it is not a sin for Jew to enter a church. Of course if you have something to back that sort of statement I'd be happy to see it.

You seem to be laboring under the false impression that messianics don't know anything about Judasim. And while there are many gentiles within the movement - there are also plenty of Jews who were raised in observant homes.

 

[simchat_torah]

Of course if you have something to back that sort of statement I'd be happy to see it.

I don't think Fremen is claiming this to be true for himself, nor is he endorsing this thought...

He is merely stating the normative Jewish Orthodox response. Nothing more...

-Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

You seem to be laboring under the false impression that messianics don't know anything about Judasim. And while there are many gentiles within the movement - there are also plenty of Jews who were raised in observant homes.

Plenty?????

I haven't met a single one on this website. I have only met 2 ever in MJ circles outside of the internet.

And I've been around...


I'd say overwhelmingly, if not entirely, Messianic Judaism is comprised of Gentiles or Jews who were not raised in observant homes.
-Yafet

 

[Wags]

What do you consider observant? Orthodox only, or does Conservative cut it with you? And how about Reform?