Questions To Dispensationalists

Biblewriter · Apr 21, 2014

Biblewriter said:
Yes, we will be changed. But the old bodies will be resurrected.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:16

This cannot refer to the spirits of the departed who return with the Lord. For they are coming down to earth with him, not rising to meet him.

There is no scripture that says that our dead bodies will not arise. It says they will be changed. But it also plainly says they will rise.

The Boxer said:
Try telling that to Polycarp and the saints whose bodies were used as torches to light up the streets of Rome. Their bodies were annihilated by fire. What about them? They have no body to resurrect.

It is the soul that is resurrected. "You will not leave my SOUL in sheol." Peter said that Christ's soul was resurrected from sheol. And Paul said that Christ was resurrected from the abyss. His flesh did NOT descend into the abyss (the deepest parts of the earth). His flesh was put into a tomb. His soul went down into the abyss from whence it was raised up and was reunited to His flesh so He could appear to His disciples. When He ascended forty days later He was changed and put on His eternal body from heaven.

No. It says that WE will be changed, not our flesh. "Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God." See Paul's seed analogy. He said that it is the "naked grain" that is changed. This corresponds to the "naked man" which is clothed with the eternal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).

Our flesh will be recyled. If you were to die today your body would be gone in six months. Your interpretation does not square with scripture nor reality.

I just quoted a scripture that explicitly says they will arise, and you answer by claiming that no scripture says that?

The argument that the bodies have been destroyed is meaningless. Have you never read what Jesus said, "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones."
Matthew 3:9

Davesnothere · Apr 22, 2014

random person said:
Do you believe Christ can return right this second?

Tonight?

Tomorrow?

Or does the Temple need to be rebuilt first?

Return for the church? No, a Temple is not necessary...

Return for the second advent? Yes, a Temple is necessary...

-Dave

Davesnothere · Apr 22, 2014

random person said:
Christ made an everlasting eternal Covenant meaning it is the last and final covenant. And dispensationalists believe God still has a Covenant with national Israel. The Old Covenant is obsolete and has passed away. The destruction of the 2nd Temple was God's final dealing with Old Covenant, temple sacrifices, and Aaronic priesthood.

Christ is the last and final sacrifice and He has taken the office of High Priest not after the order of the Aaronic priesthood but after the Melchizedek order.

The New Covenant with Israel is based on the Abrahamic Covenant according to Dispensationalism, not the Mosaic... You do realize this, right? You also realize that Dispensationalism teaches the Mosaic Covenant to be a temporary covenant?

-Dave

Davesnothere · Apr 22, 2014

random person said:
And what does Ephesians 2:14 mean?

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

It means that the Law, having been rendered inoperative by the death of Christ, is no longer a hindrance to gentiles enjoying the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant. Paul doesn't erase the distinction between Jew and gentile, he confirms it (Eph. 2:15-18). Paul explains that the church is made up of believing Jews and believing gentiles, a new man.

Hope that helps

-Dave

MWood · Apr 22, 2014

Davesnothere said:
random person said:

And what does Ephesians 2:14 mean?

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

It means that the Law, having been rendered inoperative by the death of Christ, is no longer a hindrance to gentiles enjoying the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant. Paul doesn't erase the distinction between Jew and gentile, he confirms it (Eph. 2:15-18). Paul explains that the church is made up of believing Jews and believing gentiles, a new man.

Hope that helps

-Dave

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I have never seen the New Covenant in the Bible. Can you give me the book, chapter, and verses that spell out the content of this new covenant?

Davesnothere · Apr 23, 2014

MWood said:
Davesnothere said:

I have never seen the New Covenant in the Bible. Can you give me the book, chapter, and verses that spell out the content of this new covenant?

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Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

MWood · Apr 23, 2014

Davesnothere said:
MWood said:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

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This covenant is the one that God will make with the nation of Israel at the second advent of Christ. It can not be made until all of Israel has been gathered from the four corners of the world back to their home land. This covenant is to, for, and about Gods chosen, to make them a nation of priest, an holy nation unto Him, as He told Moses back in Exodus and Duet. If Jesus had made a new covenant while He was here surely the four Gospel writers would have written something about it. And that was the reason for my question.

Davesnothere · Apr 23, 2014

MWood said:
Davesnothere said:

This covenant is the one that God will make with the nation of Israel at the second advent of Christ. It can not be made until all of Israel has been gathered from the four corners of the world back to their home land. This covenant is to, for, and about Gods chosen, to make them a nation of priest, an holy nation unto Him, as He told Moses back in Exodus and Duet. If Jesus had made a new covenant while He was here surely the four Gospel writers would have written something about it. And that was the reason for my question.

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And I would agree that the fulfillment of the New Covenant is future... although as I understand it, the Lord will put His Spirit in Israel prior to the second advent.

but... and this is a question, not an assertion. You don't believe that the church (believing gentiles and the remnant of Israel) partakes in the spiritual benefits of the New Covenant through Christ?

What do you think the following New Testament passages refer to, if not the New Covenant? Matt. 26:28, I Cor. 11:25; II Cor. 3:6; Heb. 7:22, 8:6-13, 9:15, 10:16. (I'm not looking for a verse by verse exegesis, just wanting a general idea of what testament/Covenant these New Testament authors are referring to if not the New Covenant)

FYI, I would probably be best categorized as a classical Dispensationalist.

Kind regards,
Dave

MWood · Apr 24, 2014

Davesnothere said:
MWood said:

And I would agree that the fulfillment of the New Covenant is future... although as I understand it, the Lord will put His Spirit in Israel prior to the second advent.

but... and this is a question, not an assertion. You don't believe that the church (believing gentiles and the remnant of Israel) partakes in the spiritual benefits of the New Covenant through Christ?

What do you think the following New Testament passages refer to, if not the New Covenant? Matt. 26:28, I Cor. 11:25; II Cor. 3:6; Heb. 7:22, 8:6-13, 9:15, 10:16. (I'm not looking for a verse by verse exegesis, just wanting a general idea of what testament/Covenant these New Testament authors are referring to if not the New Covenant)

FYI, I would probably be best categorized as a classical Dispensationalist.

Kind regards,
Dave

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After reading these scriptures they all are referring to the same covenant of Jer 31.

Davesnothere · Apr 24, 2014

MWood said:
Davesnothere said:

After reading these scriptures they all are referring to the same covenant of Jer 31.

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Yes, they are all referring to the New Covenant in Jeremiah, and they are all New Testament references. Just as a reminder, and I'm sure you probably know this... the original question you asked was where the New Covenant was in the bible, and the terms spelled out "I have never seen the New Covenant in the Bible. Can you give me the book, chapter, and verses that spell out the content of this new covenant?". You didn't ask for New Testament references originally.

MWood · Apr 25, 2014

Davesnothere said:
MWood said:

Yes, they are all referring to the New Covenant in Jeremiah, and they are all New Testament references. Just as a reminder, and I'm sure you probably know this... the original question you asked was where the New Covenant was in the bible, and the terms spelled out "I have never seen the New Covenant in the Bible. Can you give me the book, chapter, and verses that spell out the content of this new covenant?". You didn't ask for New Testament references originally.

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My mistake! I didn't see that until you pointed it out. I used the word Bible instead of New testament.
Thank you for your input.

Davesnothere · Apr 25, 2014

MWood said:
Davesnothere said:

My mistake! I didn't see that until you pointed it out. I used the word Bible instead of New testament.
Thank you for your input.

Click to expand...

No worries...

I was wondering though, now that we've agreed there are New Testament references to the "New Covenant" (Jer. 31:31-34).

What, if any, relation would you say the church has towards the New Covenant?

Your not obligated to answer...

Hope all is well,
Dave

MWood · Apr 25, 2014

Davesnothere said:
MWood said:

No worries...

I was wondering though, now that we've agreed there are New Testament references to the "New Covenant" (Jer. 31:31-34).

What, if any, relation would you say the church has towards the New Covenant?

Your not obligated to answer...

Hope all is well,
Dave

Click to expand...

Jer. 31:31 is a promise of God to the Nation of Israel. It is a national promise for the whole of the nation. The Church the Body of Christ will not get any part of that covenant. The members of this church are Sons of God and will forever be with Christ. When Jesus returns and establishes this covenant with Israel, they will be earth bond and will be a nation of priests as God wanted them to be from the beginning.

Yes, all is well. Thanks for asking.

And you? All is well?
MWood

random person · Apr 30, 2014

Biblewriter said:
Actually, classical dispensationalism clearly teaches that those who have rejected the gospel before the rapture will have their hearts judicially blinded so they will believe the lie of the Antichrist.

But the rapture is very clearly spelled out in the Bible, in the following words:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. But anyone who denies that it will happen is denying explicitly stated scripture.

Please read verses 13-15 to grasp the whole context of this passage!

random person · Apr 30, 2014

Dispy said:
Yes, God did make an everlasting eternal Covenant with the nation of Israel.

Yes, God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah as promised in (Jer. 31:31-34). It will be fulfilled at the 2nd coming of Jesus, when He establishes His kingdom upon the earth.

The OC was based upon Israel keeping the Laws of Moses. However the New NC, referenced in Heb. 8, is based on the Cross work of Christ, through His death, burial and resurrection.

Jesus will be the High Priest of Israel after the order of Melchisedec (Heb. 5:6), who was Gentile priest (Gen. 14:8). There was no such thing as water baptism at that time.

The New Covenant was in Christ, Hebrews 10:28-29!

random person · Apr 30, 2014

Davesnothere said:
Return for the church? No, a Temple is not necessary...

Return for the second advent? Yes, a Temple is necessary...

-Dave

Christ is the Temple and we are His body.

random person · Apr 30, 2014

Davesnothere said:
The New Covenant with Israel is based on the Abrahamic Covenant according to Dispensationalism, not the Mosaic... You do realize this, right? You also realize that Dispensationalism teaches the Mosaic Covenant to be a temporary covenant?

-Dave

And Christ is the eternal covenant, yes! Hebrews 13:20!

My advice for dispensationalists, which IMO is a heretical teaching, read Hebrews ten times in a row, add a dash of Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians in between. But really crack down and study Hebrews!!!!!

riverrat · Apr 30, 2014

random person said:
The New Covenant was in Christ, Hebrews 10:28-29!

The new covenant was stated in Jeremiah 31:31. It was made at the cross. It will become effective when Christ returns to earth and sets up his kingdom.

Biblewriter · Apr 30, 2014

random person said:
Please read verses 13-15 to grasp the whole context of this passage!

Yes, the context of the passage was to comfort those whose loved ones had gone on before. But that has zero bearing on the facts of the rapture itself. To deny that this will happen is to deny explicitly stated scripture. But it is legitimate to debate when this will happen.

Biblewriter · Apr 30, 2014

random person said:
And Christ is the eternal covenant, yes! Hebrews 13:20!

My advice for dispensationalists, which IMO is a heretical teaching, read Hebrews ten times in a row, add a dash of Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians in between. But really crack down and study Hebrews!!!!!

And our advice to you is to read the whole Bible, not just part of it. It all came from the same Holy Spirit. And all of it is completely true and accurate.

By the way, stating your opinion in this way is not a violation of CF rules. It is only a violation to slander either the doctrine or its teachers. Even as it is a violation of the rules to slander your doctrine, or any of its teachers.

Questions To Dispensationalists

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1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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