Questions on the Sabbath

bdgienger22 · Sep 10, 2008

Well the central question that I would like to put forth is based off these verse. The Bible seems pretty clear that we should: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8 ESV).

And Jesus also seems clear in when he says: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15 ESV)

So with this clarity why is Sunday worship not only widespread but dominant in the Christian Faith? Is there some reason that a practice put in place by Constantine for the Roman Catholic Church has lasted through the reformation and into Protestant faith?

Bobinator · Sep 10, 2008

As you know, the Sabbath was when no one, not even animals, was allowed to work. This was important not because the Lord followed this pattern when he created the universe, but because it represented how man is to subdue the flesh and live according to the Spirit.

One analogy is when a farmer sows seed. He tills the ground, seeds it, waters it and lets nature take its course, which by the way, is a force much greater than himself and has absolutely no control over. Any more activity would be detrimental to his harvest, other than to safeguard it.

Mark 2:[24] And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?[25] And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?[26] How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?[27] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:[28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The Lord was introducing a new covenant and trying to explain that the laws of God are spiritual.

Here are a few more scriptures:

Rom.8-4- That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal.5:18- But if ye be led of theSpirit, ye are not under the law.

Hebrews 4:[9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.[11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The unbelief being referred to here is not walking in Faith in Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2:16-17 says, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath is a spiritual law of walking in the Spirit of God and laying down the works of the flesh. In other words, we live our lives, we work, raise our children, pay the bills, do the things we have to do while we exist on earth, but we place it in Gods hands and are to walk and follow after the Spirit as Jesus did. Before he started his full-time ministry, Jesus was a professional carpenter to earn a living as well.

Regarding worshipping on Sunday, the believers in the Book of Acts met on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. There is no spiritual law that restricts anyone from meeting on any day they choose. We no longer have to follow the letter of the Law, but the law of the Spirit.

bdgienger22 · Sep 10, 2008

In Mark is Jesus not speaking against the idea that the rules of the Sabbath don't outweigh the value of human life? And in fact that the Pharisees enforcement was in error and that they missed the idea of love?

I've always taken Romans to mean that if we walk by the Spirit through our faith in Christ we can follow the Law with the Spirit's influence.

I have been lead to believe that Galatians speaks of us not being under the law, in that we are not condemned by the law if we follow Jesus, however I don't think Jesus ever taught anything about being something that we follow in principle.

In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says that he doesn't abolish the Law -
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read." (Luke 4:16 ESV) If Jesus was planning on allowing the change of Sabbath observance then why did he continue to observe the Sabbath? As Christians are we not called to live like Christ?

Where in Acts does it talk about worship on the first day?

bdgienger22 · Sep 10, 2008

Allow me a moment to make a correction the Law does condemn us if we are not under Jesus, and if we are covered by the Blood of Jesus through faith then we are not judged by the Law.

However; isn't Sin putting our will above God's will, that is what Satan did, he desired God's Throne according to Isaiah 14:12-14, he wanted God's authority. So in effect if we decide we don't want to follow God's Law we are putting out will above his, which is sin. So how can we come to Jesus in faith if we continue down a path of sin, in full knowledge that we are not following God's Will? If we honestly believe then we strive to follow God's Will, no one says we will be perfect without the Spirit though.

WithBendedKnee · Sep 10, 2008

I will agree that the Bible says that even the apostles after Jesus death kept the Sabbath. Its fairly clear in Acts 13:42-44 that Paul kept the Sabbath and even taught the Gentiles on the next Sabbath.

Even the Catholic church tells those who are 'non-catholics' that if they are going to observe God's holy day, that they need to worship on Sabbath. (Converts Catechism, pg 50.)

Then this catechism goes on to ask. "Why do we observe Sunday instead of Sabbath? Because the Catholic Church transferred the solemntity of the Sabbath from sunday to Sabbath."

Proverbs is clear about this. "There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Prov. 14:12

WithBendedKnee · Sep 10, 2008

As to the reference of Mark above, your logic is that by Jesus quoting scripture as law he was trying to tell us that he was the law, and was going to change it? But it says, Matthew 5:17 says "I have not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law"

ebia · Sep 10, 2008

bdgienger22 said:
Well the central question that I would like to put forth is based off these verse. The Bible seems pretty clear that we should: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8 ESV).

And Jesus also seems clear in when he says: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15 ESV)

So with this clarity why is Sunday worship not only widespread but dominant in the Christian Faith? Is there some reason that a practice put in place by Constantine for the Roman Catholic Church has lasted through the reformation and into Protestant faith?

We are no longer living at the end of the old creation, but at the beginning of God's New Creation that began on Easter Sunday Morning. So that's the day we keep, and not as a day of rest (as such) but as a day of celebration. And, for what it's worth, that goes back to way before Constantine - right back to the 1st century AD and the earliest church. The thing about Jesus' resurrection is that one is forced to radically rethink everything else in response to it.

bdgienger22 · Sep 10, 2008

Do you have any scripture to support that statement? Or any historical evidence that the early Church did indeed worship on Sunday?

Acts 13:44 - Describes Gentiles of the 1st Century Church meeting on the "Sabbath".

ebia · Sep 10, 2008

bdgienger22 said:
Do you have any scripture to support that statement? Or any historical evidence that the early Church did indeed worship on Sunday?

Acts 13:44 - Describes Gentiles of the 1st Century Church meeting on the "Sabbath".

For a while they met on both. But their primary celebration very quickly became Sunday (despite the difficulty in doing so in a world where that was the 1st day of the working week). Despite what many from all sorts of positions might like to pretend, scripture tells us very little detail about how the early church worshipped - for that we have to look elsewhere and piece the bits together. Of course there is Acts 20:7.

I'm not particularly interested in debating the point, suffice to say that keeping the sabbath rather than celebrating the New Creation makes a theological nonsense out of the whole gospel. It amounts to celebrating Jesus being dead (Holy Saturday) and denying his resurrection on Easter Sunday. Why would you want to stay at the point where darkness is at it's greatest and shut out the light of the new dawn? The law highlights what is wrong with the world - and we needed to know that - but we don't want to stay there.

bdgienger22 · Sep 11, 2008

Well I suppose if you don't want to debate the point then that is fine, I'm not much interested in "debating" with someone who believes debating is making blanket statements with no scriptural evidence. As for Acts 20:7 - where it speaks of breaking bread on the 1st day... well the early church believe not ate on most days, and the verse says nothing about keeping the 1st day as a celebration.

So I suppose if you don't want to actually support your statements with anything from the Bible then I am absolutely fine with ending this conversation with you. Bobinator had some great points and I am highly interested to continue that conversation.

Good Day

WithBendedKnee · Sep 11, 2008

The "Sunday" became the primary worship day when Constantine integrated the pagan worship services as well as Christianity to appease the collapsing Roman Empire. This was a political move to blend the pagan and the holy in an attempt to save his reign. The virtual collapse of trade in the Aegean and far reaches of the empire were affecting him and killing true christians only to have the martyrdom raise up more churches in their place, was taking a toll on his power base.

Look at the "saints" that are in Rome. The statues are EXACT replicas of statues 200 years previous to those roman God's. Peter = Jupiter Matthew = Mars.

The changing of the day from Sabbath to Sunday was not biblical, and who are the disciples to change something that Jesus observed himself.

For crying out loud, the bible tells you to rest on the sabbath. Jesus in death still observed this... His resurrection on sunday is fulfillment of the law. Again, I will agree with bgienger above when saying the moment someone can show me scriptural evidence in more than one obscure verse about breaking bread. Then I will be overjoyed to have a coherent debate.

MrPolo · Sep 11, 2008

bdgienger22 said:
So with this clarity why is Sunday worship not only widespread but dominant in the Christian Faith?

The day of the week is not a matter of faith or morals and is thus not immutable. The Sabbath was the day of worship. The day of worship still remains, and the commandment remains fulfilled.

Jesus Christ Himself celebrated the Holy Eucharist as one of His first acts after the Resurrection on a Sunday:

Luke 24:1, 29-30 1But at daybreak on the first day of the week...29But they urged him, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them. 30And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.

WithBendedKnee · Sep 11, 2008

I am sorry to say but I fail to see how breaking of bread and praying over it, something they did every single time they ate in the bible, signifies the changing of God's law.

Also if you are following the Eucharist, which i understand to be the breaking of bread and drinking of wine, signifying the body and blood of Christ as was done on passover. Then why do you not follow that the breaking of bread was on a Thursday night? Does that mean we should change the day of worship to neither sunday nor sabbath but rather Thursday?

Bobinator · Sep 11, 2008

I gave you scriptural references. Feel free to read my previous post again.

Colossians 2:16-17 says, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

John 4:24- "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

To think we are still subject to the letter of the law is carnally-minded. We are to be spiritually minded, and worship God in spirit and in truth. I would highly recommend reading the book of Galations, where Paul is blasting the church for continuing to subject themselves to the law of moses.

Here are more scriptures to chew on:

Acts.13

[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom.3

[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh bejustified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal.2

[16] Knowing that a man is notjustified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal.3

[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Saturday's just another day. There's nothing spiritual about it, except the euphoria I feel when I get to sleep in.

MrPolo · Sep 11, 2008

WithBendedKnee said:
Then why do you not follow that the breaking of bread was on a Thursday night?

Because, as I said, the risen Christ celebrated it on Sunday, the day of the Resurrection. In the Luke passage, this breaking of the bread was special because, as the disciples said, they recognized Jesus in the bread. The early Church understood it this way as well, so it is also supported by the Word of Tradition.

If you don't buy the answer, that's up to you!

Standing Up · Sep 11, 2008

So, do you think you actually keep the Sabbath without breaking any of its rules? Do you drive on that day, thus illegally sparking a fire? Do you cook on that day? Do you gather? Do you travel? Do you keep the seventh year Sabbath and not work?

Standing Up · Sep 11, 2008

What are the NT references to the Sabbath day?

bdgienger22 · Sep 11, 2008

Well I will address Standing up in this post Bobinator I'll get back to you later tonight I don't have much time right now.
Okay NT references:
Luke 4:16 - "And he(Jesus) came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read." (ESV)

Matt 24:20 - (Jesus is talking about the end times) "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath" (ESV)
The argument could also be made that Jesus rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, but unless you accept the Sabbath that may seem unimportant.

Luke 23:56 - "Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment." This one seems fairly clear to me, they were following the commandments.

Those are some highlights I do have more if you require them though. As for do I keep the Sabbath as the Pharisees enforced? Absolutely not, Jesus obviously speaks against the way that they enforce the Sabbath. I try to observe the Sabbath the way the Bible describes Jesus keeping the sabbath, he went to the synagogue(church), he taught, he healed(not that I can heal, but I can help), he ate(I do enjoy eating). I figure if I am trying to follow the way Christ lived I am doing okay at being a Christian.

bdgienger22 · Sep 11, 2008

Ah Bobinator I promise I wasn't asking you for any more scriptural evidence I was referring to mrEbia and his unsupported claims. Actually I very much appreciate your viewpoint and it is on the fine points of our viewpoints that I am interested discussing. I feel like our interpretations of scripture are similar and yet the divergences are leading to a different end point. That being said I shall get to your most recent comment post haste, not to be a braggart or anything but I am actually in Venezuela right now near the end of an Evangelistic Campaign, not that the work of the LORD is more potent here then any where else, just here it leaves me slightly more pressed for time.

Believe me when I say I deeply appreciate your impute that is well studied and supported and I look forward to the coming conversation.

May the LORD bless you in all you ways

ebia · Sep 11, 2008

WithBendedKnee said:
The "Sunday" became the primary worship day when Constantine integrated the pagan worship services as well as Christianity to appease the collapsing Roman Empire.

Sorry, but this is historically unsustainable propaganda. (You can be pretty sure that if the name Constatine appears in any explanation, it's propaganda - he's been useful for centuries for that purpose).

The changing of the day from Sabbath to Sunday was not biblical, and who are the disciples to change something that Jesus observed himself.

In the light of the resurrection everything changes. That's the problem - cannot live in the world Jesus lived in without denying in your practice the cross and resurrection. The whole world changed on easter morning - to live by the old rules is to deny that change ever happened.

Again, I will agree with bgienger above when saying the moment someone can show me scriptural evidence in more than one obscure verse about breaking bread. Then I will be overjoyed to have a coherent debate.

One cannot do so on the basis of scriptural evidence about N.T. worship practices - the data simply isn't there. To find out how the early church worshipped requires looking at extra-scriptural historical sources, combined with some good theology about the resurrection, the law, the eucharist, etc. You need to get your theology right before you can begin to decide this question.

Questions on the Sabbath

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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